Curse

draugr · Apr 21, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Was having to work too hard as a warrior fronting my H/H team grinding rep, running missions, quests etc., so came up with this solution which is testing very well. Thought others might use it also Can be used by any profession as a /P I think, best on profs with a good IAS. High energy profs could really make hay with this and [Great Dwarf Weapon]. I'm sure there's already a "grindway" somewhere, it's just my joke name for the build as I am using it to grind rep in NM and HM with hero hench.

Human:

[build prof = W/P]["For Great Justice!"][Rage of the Ntouka][Flail]["Save yourselves!"]["Go for the eyes!"]["never surrender!"][Hexbreaker Aria][anthem of weariness][/build]

[Pain Inverter] [Great Dwarf Weapon] [Air of Superiority] ["Charge!'] etc could all be interchanged on the human.

Note: I don't currently use SY, as haven't done the alliance rep to get it yet, but realize it is a key component for HM. I use ["Never Surrender!"] in its place for now.

N/R Hero MM

[build prof = N/R][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Volley][Savage Shot][Charm Animal][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

N/R Hero SS

[build prof = N/R][Spiteful Spirit][Barbs][Weaken Armor][Enfeebling Blood][Volley][Savage Shot][Charm Animal][mark of pain][/build]

N/R Hero Icy Veins

[Icy Veins][Blood Ritual][Strip Enchantment][Volley][Savage Shot][Charm Animal][Signet of Lost Souls][Revive Animal]

Hench are Zho, Herta, Mhenlo and Lina

High adrenaline shouts fueled by ntouka are available quickly to frontload team damage and SY shout [Go for the eyes] and from 17 physical damage dealers (W/P, 3 necro heroes, Zho, Aidan, 3 pets, 9 minions], three of whom have the potential to hit multiple targets.

Anthem of envy. of course, only applies to allies with attack skills, but [go for the eyes] applies to all.

The heroes -are- 4 attribute splits with 9+ in marksmanship and BM, 6-9 in SR (other than the Icy Veins necro, who has blood 8 and high SR), and the rest in curses, death and blood.

SR helps fuel unexpertised [Savage Shot] so the interrupts are plentiful, sometimes hilariously so. With Zho's BHA applied to the first called target (Berserking Aurochs for example), that target is usually not going to get anything completed uninterrupted.

Using a W/P as opposed to a melee makes grinding much less tedious while still doing decent damage and applying deep wound frequently.

In low corpse areas, convert the MM to a [Putrid Explosion] [Rising Bile][Putrid Bile] [Gaze of Contempt] type.

Pets are great because they soak up lots of aggro and spells, are less fragile than minions, add to barbs and GFTE damage, don't get DP, and are easily rezzed after the fight. I prefer hearty pets that last longer and soak up more aggro, but any variety should work fine.

Any comments welcome. Not saying this is the "best" at anything, just an extremely high damage build with lots of interrupting and good defense that is testing out very well. Enjoy!

DarkSpirit · Apr 21, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Are you only depending on res from henchies?

dark_slayer · Apr 21, 2008, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Are you only depending on res from henchies?

When i Vanquish, rep grind, do hard mode missions or dungeons, i don't bring res on my hero's cause its faster to wipe and res at the shrine then keep trying to res and build up extra DP. I have about 3,000 clovers i need to use anyways.

The builds looks decent, but i don't like relying on the henchmen for all the heals. I might give it a shot and see how it goes.

mastar of warrior · Apr 21, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Would it be possible for you to post Template codes?
Would be great if you did

Super Igor · Apr 21, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

I like the warrior bar, hoenstly. Necs just look funny, I immagine 3 Dire Polar bears with a minion wall. >_>

draugr · Apr 21, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by dark_slayer

When i Vanquish, rep grind, do hard mode missions or dungeons, i don't bring res on my hero's cause its faster to wipe and res at the shrine then keep trying to res and build up extra DP. I have about 3,000 clovers i need to use anyways.

The builds looks decent, but i don't like relying on the henchmen for all the heals. I might give it a shot and see how it goes.

Exactly on the res. If the party is wiping too much, I'm running the wrong build, and for occasional wipes, just res at the shrine. The hench monks have the hard res they are going to waste time casting anywho so just let them do the ressing.

Re: the heals, very valid point, I haven't done lots of HM testing, just in Varajar Fells where I've gotten pretty good with the map anyway (as i bet lots have hehe). I did the test run with lvl 8 pets and found that the frequent interrupts from zho and the necros are interrupting an insane amount of bad stuff, hence less need for healing. Also, the build applies best defense = good offense with all the shout enhanced armor ignoring dmg, so the mobs go down fast enough so that the party doesn't suffer. Am thinking of switchin Zho out for Herta in HM for the wards (poorly timed and cast though they be lol). Will post more conclusive results as they are obtained, please feel free to do the same.

draugr · Apr 21, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by mastar of warrior

Would it be possible for you to post Template codes?
Would be great if you did

Will try to get to that tomorrow.

Antithesis · Apr 22, 2008, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Needs more [[splinter weapon] to buff [[volley] and the pets should be good lightning rods for [[ancestors rage]. Have you thought about using a [[weapon of fury] Rt/R instead of the Icy Veins N/R? Have you also considered [[order of pain]?

Taking pets is little more than a gimmick, they're not strong enough to be useful. Their corpses could be ok for MM fuel if you're comfortable with the skillbar recharge when they die - i can't see how they'll stay alive for long in HM.

Your own bar looks meh - you've got a bar full of adrenal skills and an elite that gimps their usage.
Anthem of Envy should be ok with 3 x Volley, but doesn't it only apply to one arrow? [[ebon battle standard of honor]'s a better option to give you more points to drop into Spear or Strength.
Great Dwarf Weapon is ok to buff a pet. GTFE's will only add 1-2 damage to pets & minions.
[[Vicious Attack] or [[spear of lightning] would seem a better option than Merciless Spear which has no +dmg and is too conditional to be of any great use.

To be honest, i haven't tested it but it doesn't look to have an "excellent" damage output and offers a weak defense beyond the meatshield. Speccing into 4 att lines does not make for a particularly strong or resilient build for any of the party members. Every bar has mid-range damage potential, making for a mongrel dog of a build that does enough to do the job, but does nothing particularly well. It might work in NM but i doubt it'll get far in HM, particularly when it comes to agro control. But as long as you're having fun running around with Pets and Minions, who cares.

shru · Apr 22, 2008, 02:43 AM // 02:43

@ Antithesis: All your points pretty much sum up my views except this one

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Their corpses could be ok for MM fuel if you're comfortable with the skillbar recharge when they die - i can't see how they'll stay alive for long in HM.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but pet corpses are no longer exploitable, making them absolutely useless to this build here.

Antithesis · Apr 22, 2008, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

@ Antithesis: All your points pretty much sum up my views except this oneCorrect me if I'm wrong, but pet corpses are no longer exploitable, making them absolutely useless to this build here.

No idea, I don't run Beastmasters so that's an assumption on my part. Maybe the OP can tell us.

Powerful White Man · Apr 22, 2008, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

No idea, I don't run Beastmasters so that's an assumption on my part. Maybe the OP can tell us.

Beast corpses are no longer exploitable.

Antithesis · Apr 22, 2008, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powerful White Man

Beast corpses are no longer exploitable.

Thanks for the confirmation. That makes Pets less useful.

Coloneh · Apr 22, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

That makes Pets less useful.

you could just say useless, thats all pets were good for.

Antithesis · Apr 22, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

you could just say useless, thats all pets were good for.

I'm trying very hard to be nice

Coloneh · Apr 22, 2008, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I'm trying very hard to be nice

yeah, i guess theres always iway...

Shaz · Apr 22, 2008, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Well, they do trigger barbs, but not worth a skill slot though.

Bront · Apr 22, 2008, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by mastar of warrior

Would it be possible for you to post Template codes?
Would be great if you did

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

Will try to get to that tomorrow.

Just put [Build] tags around it, and that will generate them automatically.

draugr · Apr 22, 2008, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Needs more [[splinter weapon] to buff [[volley] and the pets should be good lightning rods for [[ancestors rage]. Have you thought about using a [[weapon of fury] Rt/R instead of the Icy Veins N/R? Have you also considered [[order of pain]?

My main is a rit, so well familiar with the rit stuff. When I've tried using splinter on a hero, it gets put on the wrong toon at the wrong time. Admittedly, haven't tried it with this particular build. The reasons for the third necro are as a battery, and icy veins is a good bomb that is cast frequently due to SR. WOF is not optimal in the build as there is plenty of energy on the necros and little adrenal requirement other than on the human bar. Ancestor's rage is another AI challenged skill, believe me I've tried it, and I can't get heroes to use it right. Moreover, with the 1 second cast now, it's meh for pve and heroes generally imo. May test again once it reverts. OOP is a long cast for what it does, and I'd rather the SR/blood necro use the time to interrupt something, volley, or cast icy veins. There's the sac also with OOP, and the AI issue as to when to cast also. I did consider that and OOV also, though. I will likely keep the third necro volleyer as a battery and for the interrupts and icy veins, but thanks for the suggestions on this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Taking pets is little more than a gimmick, they're not strong enough to be useful. Their corpses could be ok for MM fuel if you're comfortable with the skillbar recharge when they die - i can't see how they'll stay alive for long in HM.

"Gimmick?" please define... esp in a pve context. I started using the pets back when grinding on the rit to bootstrap [barbs] and to have something to cast GDW on that was easy to target (in the party menu unlike minions) before any minions had been generated ( a weak pet + barbs + r10 GDW is suddenly not so weak doing +34 armor ignoring dmg per attack with 40% KD..) They did this fine, but I also noticed that esp in a caster/ranged team, they soaked up a ton of aggro and spells. That's the main reason they are worth a slot IMO in this build. I know and have always known they weren't exploitable coprses. As far as their longevity, they do die fairly frequently, usually with death nova cast on them

but the HM mobs certainly don't slice through them like butter. They don't get DP and are ressed in a batch after tough fights. They die actually in about 10% of the fights, usually only one dies; the hench monks heal them pretty well. If you think of them as heartier minions, I think you might agree that they aren't just some "gimmick."

As far as the pets in this build, they don't get the benefit of GDW from my warr, but they do get barbs, and death nova-d, and do soak up lots of hate, I look at them as nonelite [animate flesh golem] that don't degen. I didn't realize that a pet crit was only "one or two points" higher than a normal attack. Thanks for letting me know this, will have to look into it. Admittedly, I don't know the math behind pet and minion attacks, I do know that a crit is at least the highest damage possible give the range, and that the more things hitting a mob with [barbs] the better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Your own bar looks meh - you've got a bar full of adrenal skills and an elite that gimps their usage.
Anthem of Envy should be ok with 3 x Volley, but doesn't it only apply to one arrow? [[ebon battle standard of honor]'s a better option to give you more points to drop into Spear or Strength.
Great Dwarf Weapon is ok to buff a pet. GTFE's will only add 1-2 damage to pets & minions.
[[Vicious Attack] or [[spear of lightning] would seem a better option than Merciless Spear which has no +dmg and is too conditional to be of any great use.

I agree on the battle standard, but don't have it to a decent level yet and am worried about the energy also. Just started the warr in GWEN last week. As far as rage gimping the usage, the only place I see that is GFTE, which I could probably use again a second earlier were it not for the [rage of the ntouka] recharge. Rage allows instant flail, instant GFTE, instant anthem of envy, and DW is ready for the second mob, as the first mob is usually dead too fast to apply it. I like as much frontloaded dmg in pve as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

To be honest, i haven't tested it but it doesn't look to have an "excellent" damage output and offers a weak defense beyond the meatshield. Speccing into 4 att lines does not make for a particularly strong or resilient build for any of the party members. Every bar has mid-range damage potential, making for a mongrel dog of a build that does enough to do the job, but does nothing particularly well. It might work in NM but i doubt it'll get far in HM, particularly when it comes to agro control. But as long as you're having fun running around with Pets and Minions, who cares.

I did a full 260 mob HM Varajar run with the build tonight sans final bosses as I don't have the quest yet. Had three wipes and went from rank 0 norn to mid rank 2. One was when Asterius and company came along while I had just popped a 2 scourge vaettir group and had aggroed a wendigo group as well (a little rusty with the run). Another was with another vaettir popup, an ice elemental group and a small roving centaur group. The last was when I aggroed the big central centaur group with the healers and another one at the same time (on purpose). The party lasted a long time before wiping, and almost pulled out each time. The build plows through any single group there very very quickly. I was doing the run for speed, so didn't really flag the heroes other than at the jotun cave where the build did nicely. The run took about an hour and a half, but I wasn't really maximizing my toon as I had all three hero bars open to see what they were doing. For a first full run was very good. I hope to be able to improve the time dramatically.

The strengths of the build are 1. Front loaded shout dmg via GFTE and anthem of envy from 18 dmg dealers (17 going forward as I miss Herta and have decided Aidan ain't all that) 2. LOTS of interrupting from the necros with SR fueled savage shots and the hench's BHA 3. Lots of things whacking on mobs cursed with [barbs] 4. A 12 unit meatshield with only one MM, three being the pets of course (incidentally, I leveld the pets from 12-15 on this run, they didn't die nearly as much as I expected, now they are 18 and even stouter).

Keep in mind the principles of minion bombing, shout enhanced attacks, and barbs before dismissing the dmg as mid range. I could get more dmg out of a build headed by a four pip regen toon, but don't think I can do much better as a 2 pip warrior.

I have UAX, and am an inveterate pve hero tweaker, so can vouch that this is an excellent build for its purpose, farming rep fast. Please give it a try, thanks again for the comments. Much food for thought.

Bront · Apr 22, 2008, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Actual comments:

1) Builds that rely on the player having "SY" are shielded from a lot of trouble due to how broken "SY" is, let alone some of the grind required to get it in the first place.

2) I can actualy see the use of a pet, but 3 seems like a bit of overkill. At least you streamlined their res to 1 skill, but that's 4 skill slots in 24 that you get back by not using a pet.

3) This build is severely hampered by blind, and lacks much in the way of condition removal. True, you have lots of interupts, but if a blind gets though, you're seriously screwed.

I'd suggest removing the Bow skills and Pet from the frist Necro, and use [putrid bile], [foul feast], and [Infuse Condition] along with a 40/40 DM set. Adds some condition removal to protect the other members of your party, will counter blind, keeps your MM alive longer (Foul Feast is a nice heal, ignore the hover, that's wrong)

The Second Hero, drop the bow/interupts and pet, and let's improve our condition removal and add a little spreading fun. [Foul Feast] and [Plague Sending]. Since you don't like Resses, I might suggest [Vengeance]. Disable it after a battle, but while it's up, your party members pop back up ready to fight and do extra damage. It's effective on a Me hero, might be fun here.

I'll leave the third one. Looks... different, still gives you some interupts, though replace Revive Animal with [Comfort Animal]

This results in
[build prof=N Name="N hero MM" Dea=12+1+3 Sou=12+1][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Putrid Bile][Foul Feast][Infuse Condition][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

[build prof=N/Mo Name="N/Mo hero SS" Cur=12+1+1 Sou=12+1][Spiteful Spirit][Barbs][Weaken Armor][Enfeebling Blood][Foul Feast][Plague Sending][Signet of Lost Souls][Vengeance][/build]

[build prof=N/R Name="N/R Hero Icy Veins" Blo=11+1+1 Mar=11 Sou=8+1][Icy Veins][Blood Ritual][Strip Enchantment][Volley][Savage Shot][Charm Animal][Signet of Lost Souls][Comfort Animal][/build]Add any remaining points to Beast Master.

Dang, I may need to try this now.

FYI, Foul Feast, Transfer all conditions from target other ally to yourself. You gain 0...36...45 Health and 0...2...3 Energy for each condition transferred. Extra energy, health, and removal of blind from opponents that cause it.

In condition poor places, this might not be as effective.

BTW, here are the origionals with fixed code:
[build prof=N/R Name="N/R hero MM"][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Volley][Savage Shot][Charm Animal][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

[build prof=N/R Name="N/R hero SS"][Spiteful Spirit][Barbs][Weaken Armor][Enfeebling Blood][Volley][Savage Shot][Charm Animal][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

[build prof=N/R Name="N/R Hero Icy Veins"][Icy Veins][Blood Ritual][Strip Enchantment][Volley][Savage Shot][Charm Animal][Signet of Lost Souls][Revive Animal][/build]

Antithesis · Apr 22, 2008, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

"Gimmick?" please define... esp in a pve context. --snip--
As far as their longevity, they do die fairly frequently...

You're looking for an excuse to run pets, hence it's an gimmick build and a bad one at that given they die frequently. I have tried 4 x Beastmasters in the past (R/P's & P/R's), Pets just don't cut it in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

I did a full 260 mob HM Varajar run with the build tonight sans final bosses as I don't have the quest yet. Had three wipes and went from rank 0 norn to mid rank 2.

Three party wipes on a Vanq is reflective of a mediocre build. No offense, it's the truth. I'd consider myself unlucky to get 3 deaths total doing the same zone, it's one of my favourite runs and i consider it one of the easiest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

The strengths of the build are 1. Front loaded shout dmg via GFTE and anthem of envy from 18 dmg dealers (17 going forward as I miss Herta and have decided Aidan ain't all that) 2. LOTS of interrupting from the necros with SR fueled savage shots and the hench's BHA 3. Lots of things whacking on mobs cursed with [barbs] 4. A 12 unit meatshield with only one MM, three being the pets of course (incidentally, I leveld the pets from 12-15 on this run, they didn't die nearly as much as I expected, now they are 18 and even stouter).

None of the reasons you listed is compelling enough to overcome the relative weakness they impose on the team.

GFTE's is ok but best used as energy management on an energy-heavy Paragon bar. The damage buff of GFTE's on mid-level Minions and Pets is sweet FA on a HM foe.
There's not enough difference between the damage of 10 Minions + Barbs + Weaken Armor vs 9 Minions + 3 Pets + Barbs + Weaken Armor + GFTE's to be worthwhile. You're preventing Death Nova bombs from going off by taking agro onto your Pets, therefore you could in fact be doing less damage with Pets than without.
Anthem of Envy does not affect Minions and Pets. Get that straight, your post is misleading.
Interrupts are a good thing, I don't think 3 Savage Shot is the way to go. [[cry of frustration] is a better option, i can cast that every 7.5 secs on a Mesmer in my build and that's just 1 skill slot - i have 7 more for additional interrupts, enchant stripping, hex removal and a no DP battle rez.
Your team build is very vulnerable to both conditions and hexes. The build could use additional healing in HM considering you need to keep the Pets alive too. Relying on two Healer Henchies has already proven your downfall with 3 complete party wipes.
By mixing caster and physical skills on the one bar, you're watering down your atts and gimping the effectiveness of either half of the build. Spell, Attack, Spell, Attack at mid-range atts is at least half as effective as Spell, Spell, Spell, Spell or Attack, Attack, Attack, Attack at high atts. There are much better options for Warriors and Necs than dropping points into 4 att lines, resulting in little more than limiting their potential.
Icy Veins is ok, the rest of the bar is weaker than slotting in a more effective Hero.
3 dead Pets helps no-one and keeping them alive drains your Monks dry, contributing to your party wipes. Having a bar disabled for 10 seconds is reason enough not to take them.
The only way i'd consider taking a Pet is by buffing it with Splinter Weapon + Great Dwarven Weapon and casting Ancestor's Rage on it. You're packing none of them.

If you want to go down this path, why not try something like this -

Use whatever Warrior build you want to run. W/P God Mode is your best bet, if that's boring, run a Triple Chop or Earthshaker. Trying to run a Warrior as a Paragon results in a weak Paragon.
[build name="Minion Bomber" prof=Necro/Rit Death=16 Channeling=10 Soul=9][jagged bones][animate bone minions][death nova][putrid bile][blood of the master][splinter weapon][ancestors rage][signet of lost souls][/build]
[build name="SS" prof=Necro Curses=14 Soul=13][spiteful spirit][barbs][weaken armor][enfeebling blood][mark of pain][rip enchantment][rigor mortis][signet of lost souls][/build]
[build name="BHA BM" prof=Ranger Expertise=12 Marksmanship=12 Beast=11][broad head arrow][savage shot][distracting shot][volley][needling shot][call of haste][charm animal][comfort animal][/build]
Needling shot can be swapped out for [[call of protection] for better Pet survivability.

I'd suggest the damage output of this build is higher and has less vulnerabilities. You have 3 interrupts that are far more powerful than 3 x Savage Shot. You have only one less ally with 10 Minions + 1 Pet and they're all stronger versions. Only one bar can be gimped by the death of a Pet instead of three. The BHA, SS and MM are more powerful as they spec into at most 3 att lines. If running with Aidan and Zho, you have 3 Rangers in the party - that's more than enough Physical damage for Barbs, Splinter Weapon, Weaken Armor and Mark of Pain to do their thing without bastardising the Necromancers.

By all means run your build and enjoy doing it, that's the beauty of this game - there's a million ways to skin a cat

I won't be using it because i know it's weaker than alternatives.