Curse

Luxifer · Oct 19, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Official Wiki: Guide to hard mode
Monsters have a 33 to 50 percent shorter casting duration, faster movement and faster attack speed.

Reckless Haste loses its disadvantage, as foes are already attacking at maximum attack speed.

As a result of arguments over the usage of Reckless Haste in HM for UW SC, I've decided to use my thinking powers and actually test it with numbers to see if Reckless Haste has an effect or not ... below are the results that Ive come up with:

The Question:
- Does Reckless Haste have any effect on enemies in HM since they are attacking at their maximum speed according to Wiki?

Hypothesis:
- yes, with multiple reports from players who have used SS with and without RH

The Experiment:
1. to establish the rate of attack increase with and w/o RH, my Guildies and I went to UW HM and used Bladed Aatxe as willing test subjects ... 1 Perma Tank, 1 Hex Nec, and one person as time counter ... we measured attack rates of Bladed Aatxe in 60 second intervals
2. since we used a perma tank we used hex skills that counted attacks as they missed instead of relying on visual, such as Spirit of Failure and Price of Failure (Curse must be at near zero, as not to kill if using Price)
3. To constantly hex a Bladed with RH, we use a necro with Arcane Echo, Awaken the Blood, and Reckless Haste (Echo the Awaken so that RH will last 13 seconds, 1 sec past RH duration; could of use cons but I was cheap )
4. The time counter counts down to start the 60 second timer for measuring number of attacks (attacks/minute) ... an attack is counted each time spirit of failure or price of failure triggers which is noted with the energy number bonus from Spirit of Failure or damage dealt from Price of Failure

The Results:
after testings on multiple Bladeds and multiple testing on each, these are the data we collected:
- in HM, Bladed Aatxes attack ranges 59-69 times in 1 minute with the the average atk/min being 64
- in HM with Reckless Haste on at all times, Bladed Aatxes attack at a consistent rate of 72 atk/min on numerous trials

Conclusion
Based on the data that we have collected, the experiment shows that RH does have an effect on Bladeds' attack rate in HM and also there is a cap to how much faster they can attack but this cap isnt their regular rate ... with the average rate of attack of 64 atk/min, the increase in attack rate is about 12.5% ... variation in rate of attack w/o RH is due to their varying usage of Savage Slash that gives them a quick attack

dilan155 · Oct 19, 2008, 06:19 PM // 18:19

wow, that looks really professional. good to know reckless does have an effect.

wind fire and ice · Oct 19, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Good job,thanks for spending your time to prove it does have an effect.

Capua · Oct 19, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Thanks for the clarification, this is really helpful!

GWEXTREEMFAN · Oct 19, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

good to know ^^
thanks mate

Antares Ascending · Oct 19, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Wow. Great job!

This plus a 50% miss makes RH very Useful indeed.

Ant

_Nihilist_ · Oct 19, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Good info to have. It definitely debunks the myth of 'enemies can't attack any faster than they already do in HM".

I think the more important question to ask is whether or not it is better to use RH or use Arcane Echo to copy SS. Twice the damage output, and one less skill to take, opening up more possibilities for my skill bar.

In NM I always take RH. The difference is very noticeable. Arcane Echo > SS > Echo'd SS > RH > gg Ectos. Maybe AV/SV thrown in to help with the nastiness of Savage Slash/Sever/Gash if my 55/Perma requests it. Is the HP difference enough to justify using RH in HM. That seems to be the more pressing issue. With a decent 40/40 set and a Staff of Enchanting for buffing my 55 (Perma's generally don't need it) and myself (if I choose to take AtB) it never takes me more than 3 SS's which is just about 20-25 seconds max to drop a pull without the use of RH. Would the extra few attacks be worth RH on my bar, or can I carry something else for greater flexibility of use?

Just what ran thru my head when I read this.

And yes. This thread is utter WIN.

Amnel Ithtirsol · Oct 20, 2008, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Very very interesting and helpful post. Shows we cannot 'assume' anything regarding game mechanics until properly tested. Good job!

KycooGhost · Oct 20, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

good job with this. some one might want to change wiki now, and post the data from here in its talk page.

MisterB · Oct 22, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

I think a more controlled test would be counting the energy gain from a tank enchanted with Balthazar's Spirit while fighting a Wrathful Spirit. It's nice that you've done this test, but testing attack speed against a foe that uses attack skills that have a faster activation time than their attack speed doesn't make sense to me. Especially since foes in Hard mode have half the recharge on all skills, and activate them twice as fast. I really don't think Bladed Aatxe are a good test subject because of their use of Savage Slash.

If you're going to do a specific test, it's best to eliminate as many variables as possible, and I do not think this test has done that. Try it against a foe in Hard mode with no IAS skill, no interrupts, and no attack skills that have an activation time.

If your test results are accurate, however, I still don't see how Reckless Haste is worth the energy cost as a damage skill, given the minuscule increase in hits(only 8/min). Mark of Pain, or even Desecrate/Defile Enchantments seem to be better alternatives. Damage from Mark of Pain, if you can control the scatter or hit fast enough, makes Spiteful Spirit cry.

Luxifer · Oct 23, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

I think a more controlled test would be counting the energy gain from a tank enchanted with Balthazar's Spirit while fighting a Wrathful Spirit. It's nice that you've done this test, but testing attack speed against a foe that uses attack skills that have a faster activation time than their attack speed doesn't make sense to me. Especially since foes in Hard mode have half the recharge on all skills, and activate them twice as fast. I really don't think Bladed Aatxe are a good test subject because of their use of Savage Slash.

If you're going to do a specific test, it's best to eliminate as many variables as possible, and I do not think this test has done that. Try it against a foe in Hard mode with no IAS skill, no interrupts, and no attack skills that have an activation time.

If your test results are accurate, however, I still don't see how Reckless Haste is worth the energy cost as a damage skill, given the minuscule increase in hits(only 8/min). Mark of Pain, or even Desecrate/Defile Enchantments seem to be better alternatives. Damage from Mark of Pain, if you can control the scatter or hit fast enough, makes Spiteful Spirit cry.

My experiment was to test to see if Reckless Haste has an effect on enemies in HM or not and to wat degree if it has ... from the data, I do believe that it has an effect ... it's not in anyway meant to be comprehensive or extremely intensive, otherwise this experiment would take an extra few hours or days .. I dont have that kind of time (I do but that's not the point

)

As any experiment, it sets a test or idea that can be repeated or retested to either verify or disprove ... ur idea of testing it out on the Torture Spirits in Wraithful Spirits is a good idea maybe, but don't forget they also have enchantment skills - Illusionary Weapon, Illusion of Haste, Illusion of Weakness, that will affect their attack usage ... to be comprehensive, u would have to test it on multiple types of enemies and at separate time to account for any other errors ... but when u do go test this out, MisterB, plz be kind enough to share the results with us as u were so kind to point out possible flaws and the alternative experiment was ur idea and only u could test it best

As for RH usage and effectiveness in UW, this was half of wat the experiment was to determine - its effectiveness ... RH increase in attack rate is about 12.5% ... suppose in about 12 seconds (RH duration & about Defile Enchant recharge time with cons) and that enemies attack once per second would be 12 activation of SS x 39 with cons on= 468 damage ... with RH the increase of damage given the above is about +58.5, so DE would prolly be more effective since it does 67 damage and bonus if used on enchanted foes ... woot I did math and according to this math DE>RH

Mark of Pain is pretty effective but it does have a downside being that the target doesnt take damage from it and this negates the skills effectiveness if there is only one foe around ... I'm not sure but can sum1 help me out, with 2 man vale (sin & nec) is chilblains or can they kill fast enough that Chilblains isnt required or is it just highly recommended?

MisterB · Oct 23, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luxifer

My experiment was to test to see if Reckless Haste has an effect on enemies in HM or not and to wat degree if it has ... from the data, I do believe that it has an effect ... it's not in anyway meant to be comprehensive or extremely intensive, otherwise this experiment would take an extra few hours or days .. I dont have that kind of time (I do but that's not the point

)

As any experiment, it sets a test or idea that can be repeated or retested to either verify or disprove ... ur idea of testing it out on the Torture Spirits in Wraithful Spirits is a good idea maybe, but don't forget they also have enchantment skills - Illusionary Weapon, Illusion of Haste, Illusion of Weakness, that will affect their attack usage ... to be comprehensive, u would have to test it on multiple types of enemies and at separate time to account for any other errors ... but when u do go test this out, MisterB, plz be kind enough to share the results with us as u were so kind to point out possible flaws and the alternative experiment was ur idea and only u could test it best

As for RH usage and effectiveness in UW, this was half of wat the experiment was to determine - its effectiveness ... RH increase in attack rate is about 12.5% ... suppose in about 12 seconds (RH duration & about Defile Enchant recharge time with cons) and that enemies attack once per second would be 12 activation of SS x 39 with cons on= 468 damage ... with RH the increase of damage given the above is about +58.5, so DE would prolly be more effective since it does 67 damage and bonus if used on enchanted foes ... woot I did math and according to this math DE>RH

Mark of Pain is pretty effective but it does have a downside being that the target doesnt take damage from it and this negates the skills effectiveness if there is only one foe around ... I'm not sure but can sum1 help me out, with 2 man vale (sin & nec) is chilblains or can they kill fast enough that Chilblains isnt required or is it just highly recommended?

Please understand, my comments were not meant as a flame, but rather an attempt at constructive criticism. Your tests raised the possibility that foes in Hard mode can in fact increase their attack rate beyond the natural hard mode bonus. I'd always wondered why foes still carried an IAS in hard mode, anyway, if those skills had no effect.

At the same time, there are flaws in the test, as I pointed out. The reason I recommended the Tortured Spirits is because they use Illusionary Weaponry, which negates RH's chance to miss so you can easily count the frequency of energy gain from Balthazar's Spirit. I actually got the idea for using the Tortured Spirits, or any foe with IW, from here. If they don't take damage, and if there is no other target, they should not use any skill other than IW, and you can count the frequency of hits during IW's duration.

If I have time, I may test further, and post results. I'm confident I can combine your three roles into a singular character using my Necro as N/Me with video capture software to do the counting for me. Counting fps should yield accurate results. I have a few ideas for alternate methods of testing, including some slight modification of your method. I really don't have an interest in doing comprehensive tests, however.

I did the math, factoring cast time and recharge with cons, on DE vs. RH using your test results, too, and that is why I made that recommendation. I was unsure of your attribute levels, but it would seem to be a more efficient use of energy. It should be particularly effective against enchanted foes, of course. I don't have any experience with UW SCs, however, so I can certainly see how MoP's limitations could make it undesirable for that purpose.

I would like to see this experiment succeed; I really do want to know how attack rates work in hard mode, and what the caps and mechanisms for it are. I understand that UW SCs were a primary motivation for your experiment and this thread, but I hope further testing can yield more conclusive results.

Luxifer · Oct 23, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

I didnt use the balthazar spirit method for counting because that requires u to isolate the enemy to make certain that that target is the one attacking and triggering the effect rather then taking the total hit count and dividing by number of enemies ... empirical it looks ok but we dont kno just exactly how enemy AI works ... spirit and price of failure works because all attacks miss and u can target one enemy ...

I use 3 ppl to share the workload because they had nothing else better to do but be my guinea pigs

... main reason being I didnt want interference while doing a certain thing ... but yeah if ur interested in testing it out I would be more then happy to make it a bi-partisan effort to eliminate bias or I could send sum1 as a rep

either way, I really wish ppl would use more math (and common sense) when making/selecting their build(s) or selecting one skill over another ... this is y I play around with skills and builds from time to time, but then u have to factor in human emotions for build and skills usage ...

MisterB · Oct 23, 2008, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luxifer

I didnt use the balthazar spirit method for counting because that requires u to isolate the enemy to make certain that that target is the one attacking and triggering the effect rather then taking the total hit count and dividing by number of enemies ... empirical it looks ok but we dont kno just exactly how enemy AI works ... spirit and price of failure works because all attacks miss and u can target one enemy ...

I think you have Balthazar's Spirit

and Balthazar's Aura

confused, or perhaps I simply don't understand what you mean. My proposal was to enchant your tank with BS, and then isolate a single spirit with your tank being the only one in the spirit's aggro radius. That should eliminate any AI difficulties, and then the tank could count the energy gain from BS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luxifer

I use 3 ppl to share the workload because they had nothing else better to do but be my guinea pigs

... main reason being I didnt want interference while doing a certain thing ... but yeah if ur interested in testing it out I would be more then happy to make it a bi-partisan effort to eliminate bias or I could send sum1 as a rep

I'll add you to my friends list, then, and send you a pm if I am interested in a collaboration. To be honest, though, my intent is to test independently as I don't have any experience in UW SCs, and none of my characters have anywhere near the maximum rank in PvE skills except the Sunspear rank. My Necro does not even have all the primary skills unlocked, much less PvE skills.

Luxifer · Oct 23, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

nope i kno the difference, thats y i used the term "Effect" over "damage" (wasn't sure if u planned to kill things off or not, I didnt to kill any to save time) ... thing about doing it alone to test the spirits is because for the quest if all the spirits die during the quest, u would fail and be kickd out of UW .. the set up time if done alone will be like 15-20 mins per trial

an alternative way of testing to remove the "savage slash" or any faster attack rate could be to remove all the Bladed's energy with Spirit shackle and this would not allow him to use any energy based nor adrenline skill since its not taking/dealing damage