Curse

ac1inferno · Nov 30, 2008, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Why wouldn't a 55 use cheapest armor? They get the same energy from a cheap armor as they would on any other more expensive armor. And armor wouldn't matter because with 55 health, any hit without [[Protective spirit] would result in death.

I don't think you understand, a Spirit Bonder wants to take 60 damage or more so [[Spirit Bond] can heal 80. And just like a 55, Protective Spirit is used so that the heal will be more than the damage.

The build I posted takes care of the 10 hit trigger to Spirit Bond. I don't see why a 55 would use that since they wouldn't get much from [[Retribution].

Age · Nov 30, 2008, 08:26 AM // 08:26

You simply can not solo farm with a 600hp Monk just go farm the trolls in NM and see what happens or the minotours.The reason most Monks use high end armour is because they use piece or two when normal Monking and 55s can use high end armour.

The question you are asking is no more different then saying why can't I farm with my normal Elementalist or Mesmer.

I don't think you read the update notes on SB as to the 10 hits either through attacks or spells.

Quote:

These invincimonks center their skills on immediately healing any and all damage they take. Currently, there are no builds known to utilize this theory of invincimonking.

The first (and so far only) skill capable of doing this is Spirit Bond. However, it was nerfed in the update of October 25, 2006 and is now all but incapable of fulfilling its former role. The build focused around the use of this skill has fallen into disuse.

The Spirit Bond monk was often called a "600 Monk" due to an early misconception that Spirit Bond would only activate if the damage taken after Protective Spirit were 60 or greater, thus requiring a minimum of 600 hp; later tests proved this incorrect (characters below level fifteen would use the build with near-perfect results), but the name stuck. This granted the 600 monk another unique quality; to date, it is the only known invincimonk that could operate with any amount of health.

The Instant Healing invincimonk was the ultimate in invincible monks; with the ability to keep its maximum health very high combined with its near-complete damage reduction, it could ignore many of the counters to invincimonks. While the GuildWiki community (and indeed, the Guild Wars community in general) is looking for a replacement to this type of ultimate tank, the odds of ArenaNet allowing such an overpowered build to slip into the game again are extremely slim, although the temporarily buffed Shadow Form did exactly this.

From GuildWiki.

ac1inferno · Nov 30, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Have you tried my build to farm the trolls in nm? If you did, you would see it works. And yes, a 55 can use high end armor, but there is not point to it since armor level doesn't matter and you get the same energy from a cheaper armor.

I don't think you read that my build takes care of the 10 hit trigger for Spirit Bond.

Age · Nov 30, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

I don't know where the idea that a Spirit Bonder can't solo and must need a partner came from, but it can solo and does not always need a partner.

[build prof=monk/Any divine=9+1 protec=9+1 smitin=12+1+1][Protective Spirit][Spirit Bond][Shield of Judgment][Blessed Signet][Balthazar's Spirit][Retribution][Blessed Aura][Shield of Absorption][/build]

You mean this one that is on PvX Wiki you still can't solo with it at 600 or it would be more popluar than the Perma Sin SF build .I used this one that can be used at 55 or 105.http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Mo/any_SB_Underworld

ac1inferno · Dec 01, 2008, 02:50 AM // 02:50

You can solo with it and you don't need to have 600hp. Just because it's not as popular as the Perma-Shadow Form Sins doesn't mean it doesn't work. The reason why you think Spirit Bonders don't work is because you are running a flawed build, and doing it wrong. The build you have linked is sure to die once the 10 hit trigger for [[Spirit Bond] is up. The build I posted have [[Shield of Absorption] to take care of that. And you have to stop running a Spirit Bonder build as if it was a 55. Both builds have [[Retribution] and it just doesn't work well when you're 55.

Age · Dec 01, 2008, 08:03 AM // 08:03

I want to see a screenshot of high HP soloing the trolls,minos and hydras.If thie were doable ppl would go back to 600 solo farming but that isn't happening as you need the smiter with you.

ac1inferno · Dec 01, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

I don't need a screen shot if you just go and try the build lol. If you noticed that it's in the great section on PvXWiki, ask yourself why it isn't in the archives if it has been nerfed? I'm not sure if you think they can't solo because they can't live or if they can't do enough damage, but I assure you that they can do both.

A Spirit Bonder would actually be dealing more damage than a 55. A 55 uses [[Shield of Judgment] to deal damage. That would mean farming only those that have no self heal or can't be knocked down. But since a Spirit Bonder takes in more damage, it can use [[Retribution] to steadily damage foes. [[Shield of Judgment] can then be used against foes that cannot be knocked down, or if they can, it can be used defensively to slow down the rate of hits if you can't keep up.

It is true that [[Spirit Bond] ends after 10 hits, but if used with [[Shield of Absorption], by the time Spirit Bond ends, Shield of Absorption will be preventing 50ish damage. Spirit Bond should be recharged by then to be put up again. Repeat.

blackknight1337 · Dec 01, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

You mean this one that is on PvX Wiki you still can't solo with it at 600 or it would be more popluar than the Perma Sin SF build .I used this one that can be used at 55 or 105.http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Mo/any_SB_Underworld

Now why would it be more popular than perma sf? Perma sf has far fewer counters, namely signets and untargeted aoe. If you are using SoJ on a 600, you don't have spellbreaker. Heavy lifestealing, enchant removal, daze, interrupts (both spell-based and melee), simple user failure (which is a hell of a lot easier to fail at than perma), knockdowns, the list just goes on.

Fact: You can run a 600hp monk solo. You can't take holy wrath, but retribution is usable, and the definition of a 600 monk has nothing to do with holy wrath, it is simply a easy source of damage when used with a smiter.

Fact: A 600 monk is vulnerable to many of the same things as a 55 when ran solo, as it loses its invulnerability to spells via Spellbreaker. However, when ran with a smiter, it is far superior to a 55hp monk, both in time and in what areas it can be used. In fact, it is capable of doing areas that a perma cannot do.

Age, I don't know where you get your facts from. You seem to have little idea how a modern 600 monk works, and you don't seem to be able to grasp the concept even when other people in this thread have explained it to you. Nonetheless, the basic 600 monk is capable of soloing or duoing, the mechanism used to stay alive is the same. Spirit bond keeps you alive during the downtime of soa, and then soa negates damage quickly to zero while active. The damage source is irrelevant, and can be moved onto the 600, at the cost of not having holy wrath.

Used to have a screenshot of a 600 monk which had over half of the big room in foundry pounding on him, and he stayed alive.

Age · Dec 01, 2008, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

I don't need a screen shot if you just go and try the build lol. If you noticed that it's in the great section on PvXWiki, ask yourself why it isn't in the archives if it has been nerfed? I'm not sure if you think they can't solo because they can't live or if they can't do enough damage, but I assure you that they can do both.

A Spirit Bonder would actually be dealing more damage than a 55. A 55 uses [[Shield of Judgment] to deal damage. That would mean farming only those that have no self heal or can't be knocked down. But since a Spirit Bonder takes in more damage, it can use [[Retribution] to steadily damage foes. [[Shield of Judgment] can then be used against foes that cannot be knocked down, or if they can, it can be used defensively to slow down the rate of hits if you can't keep up.

It is true that [[Spirit Bond] ends after 10 hits, but if used with [[Shield of Absorption], by the time Spirit Bond ends, Shield of Absorption will be preventing 50ish damage. Spirit Bond should be recharged by then to be put up again. Repeat.

It can't do as much damage as 55 as a 55 uses a superior rune which make it 16 at in smiting.600 would have to use all minors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackknight13337 I don't know where you get your facts from. You seem to have little idea how a modern 600 monk works, and you don't seem to be able to grasp the concept even when other people in this thread have explained it to you. Nonetheless, the basic 600 monk is capable of soloing or duoing, the mechanism used to stay alive is the same. Spirit bond keeps you alive during the downtime of soa, and then soa negates damage quickly to zero while active. The damage source is irrelevant, and can be moved onto the 600, at the cost of not having holy wrath.

I get my facts from the same source that everyone else get theres from GW Updates as to the nerf to SB.Why aren't there more players doing this as most are 55ing look at the first link I posted.There is no mention of the 600 solo build on this board which as all the popular farming builds in the game just look at cerb's thread in this forum he is farming at 55 not 600.

I ask why is there no mention of it on THE Guild Wars Guru as it has the most comprehensive farming forum on any GW Fansite and partial home of 55?

ac1inferno · Dec 02, 2008, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

It can't do as much damage as 55 as a 55 uses a superior rune which make it 16 at in smiting.600 would have to use all minors.

I'd like to remind you again that you don't need to have 600hp. [[Protective Spirit] always takes effect after [[Spirit Bond].

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I get my facts from the same source that everyone else get theres from GW Updates as to the nerf to SB.Why aren't there more players doing this as most are 55ing look at the first link I posted.There is no mention of the 600 solo build on this board which as all the popular farming builds in the game just look at cerb's thread in this forum he is farming at 55 not 600.

Yes, we are all aware of the 10 hit trigger for Spirit Bond. I'd like to remind you again that [[Shield of Absorption] fixes that. The reason 55 is more popular than a Spirit Bonder is because it takes less work. It's takes less clicks to keep [[Healing Breeze] up than it is to keep Spirit Bond, but that does not mean Spirit Bonders don't work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I ask why is there no mention of it on THE Guild Wars Guru as it has the most comprehensive farming forum on any GW Fansite and partial home of 55?

55 and Spirit Bonders use the same Invincible Monk concept. They both work pretty much the same way. It's just that one takes less clicks than the other to work. But it's not like more clicking means it doesn't work at all. It still does, but people are lazy so the build that takes less work gets favored more.

stretchs · Dec 02, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

While 55'ing try Judge's Intervention, it is quite a nice spike damage. As well, Signet of Mystic Wrath has its uses as well

blackknight1337 · Dec 02, 2008, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

There is no mention of the 600 solo build on this board which as all the popular farming builds in the game just look at cerb's thread in this forum he is farming at 55 not 600.

Cerb used 55 in normal mode, his HM stuff was done with 600 and a modded smiter.

Inferno covered the rest of your points rather well. I might also add that a build not being on here or on pvx means nothing, keg farming wasn't on there for months, and look at how well that works.

_Nihilist_ · Dec 02, 2008, 04:50 AM // 04:50

@OP:

A lot of the bosses that you have listed use spells as a primary means of dealing damage. [[Shield of Judgment] doesn't trigger on spells/skills only on attacks or attack skills. Even running [[Blessed Aura] with a +20% enchant mod on your main hand, you are going to run out of [[Shield of Judgment] before they run out of HP, which is either going to make the farm slower than a person hexed with [[Iron Mist] or work as well as [[Shadow Form] works against [[IW] (hint, it doesn't). Your damage dealer is conditional, and your targets aren't meeting the conditions for SoJ to deal damage.

As far as SoJ vs mobs that can be KD'd - if more than 3 melee mobs are on you, they will scatter, and some will stay away, leaving a max of 3 on you. Test this in Nebo Terrace, outside of Bergen Hot Springs. There are patrol groups that consist of 2 Grasping Ghouls and 1 Skeleton Sorceror/Warlock. If you aggro 2 of these groups at once the ranged Skeletons will sit back and chill and all 4 Ghouls will charge you. Once all the Ghouls are on you, pop SoJ. When any one of the Ghouls reaches ~50% hp, it will scatter due to the AoE KD from SoJ. 3 will stay on you. You might get a group where a couple of the Ghouls scatter at first, but 3 will settle onto you while the 4th one sits back away from combat for a bit. If more melee mobs aggro, then the ones with low HP will scatter away until you have no more than 3 melee mobs attacking you through SoJ.

One way around this is to go /N secondary. Take either [[Spoil Victor] or [[Spiteful Spirit] as your Elite rather than [[Shield of Judgment] (be careful if running SS, it has a 2 second cast time, and if the enemies have interrupt capability they are going to gun for SS). If you take Spoil Victor, bring along another Blood Magic skill to help kill (sometimes you drop your foes to <55hp, at which point SV does nothing, unless you have either DP or are suffering from DW. If you take SS, bring along [[Insidious Parasite], as it can be used on another target for faster killing and lifesteal when they hit you.

@ Age:

You never stop, will you? You do it in the Warrior section and here in the Farming section... You have been given information that says a solo Monk can use [[Spirit Bond] to effectively solo farm. Just because [[Spirit Bond] isn't the only skill used to negate the damage (as both ac1inferno and blackknight1337 have tried to point out, explaining that once SB ends from 10 hits SoA will have taken enough hits to reduce the incoming damage at that point to slough off or to completely nil, and they have made this point multiple times) doesn't mean that it doesn't work. Instead of being a complete and total troll, why don't you just TEST IT YOUR OWN GD SELF. FFS, kids... can't live with 'em, can't put them in time out across the interwebs... if only...

Also...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

It can't do as much damage as 55 as a 55 uses a superior rune which make it 16 at in smiting.600 would have to use all minors.

This comment is complete and utter BULL. Even @ 16 Smiting Prayers SoJ does 53 dmg per hit (106 vs. Undead, which is why it's used so much in solo Undead farming). A 600 Smiter is using Retribution, which returns up to 19 dmg per hit with Smiting @ 14 (12+Helm+Minor Rune). At first, you see the straight numbers 53/hit vs 19/hit. Ok, per hit SoJ does more. I'll give you that much. Here is where you are wrong:

SoJ lasts for 21 seconds with 16 Smiting. I'll even throw in an additional 4 seconds for a +20% enchant mod on your main-hand weapon, which brings it up to 25 seconds rounded down (actual figure is 25.2 seconds). That gives you another 20 seconds of downtime and 1 second to recast if you aren't having to refresh a Prot at that exact second. Now... SoJ KD's as well as deals damage, so that's 1 second less for every hit that's landed on you while SoJ is up to account for time the enemy spent falling down and getting up. Even with 25 seconds of SoJ, you are still only getting 12 hits max per enemy, and that's saying that they hit you as soon as they stand up.

Retribution is a maintained enchant, meaning that unless it gets stripped, it is up until you either don't have the energy to maintain it (meaning you would have to have negative energy regeneration... which is only going to happen against certain skills/spirits which you wouldn't try to farm with maintained enchants in the first place...) So in the same amount of time, vs the same amount of enemies you are going to get double the number of hits from Retribution that you are going to get from SoJ (saying that attacks hit once per second per enemy and since Retribution doesn't interrupt attack flow with a 1 second KD). On top of that, you add in the additional 21 seconds for 21 more hits of Retribution (maintained) that you would be waiting on recharge/recast of SoJ.

12 hits x 53 dmg = 636 total dmg over 46 seconds (25 initial, 21 recharge/recast)
46 hits x 19 dmg = 874 total dmg over 46 seconds (maintained for 46 seconds)

The only time that SoJ is going to deal more damage than Retribution is on one of 3 conditions: a) the timeframe is shorter than a full cycle of SoJ's duration+recharge (which is the only fair way to test this, as not all enemies die in a single cast of SoJ and the time they spend attacking during the recharge is still time used, time which Retribution would still be dealing damage), b) if the enemies are doing less than 60 dmg per hit (rounded up, since Retribution deals 33% back we have to account for that last %) or c) if the damage is reduced before Retribution, lowering it to under 60 dmg per hit.

Again, this compares 16 Smiting SoJ to 14 Smiting Retribution. There are still 3 ways, at least, I could have missed some, that can render this information moot, all of which I have listed above. If you want to disprove me more, I will run more tests, to your specs in order to put this bull to rest.

Learn to mathcraft before you make erroneous comments on a public forum, trying to 1up your e-peen.

@ ac1inferno and blackknight1337:

Thanks for helping and giving tested information.

blackknight1337 · Dec 02, 2008, 05:45 AM // 05:45

@Tyrael

If I'm not mistaken, knockdowns are a minimum of 2 seconds. Not positive, but I believe that this results in 1 attack every three seconds from an enemy while you are under the effect of SoJ (assuming HM, which means 33% IAS, and thus 1 attack per second).

Also worth noting is that many people will use blessed aura with SoJ, and thus extending its duration to about 32 seconds. This of course is assuming use of a 55, which has the extra slot for it.

Also, you are welcome for the info, happy to help.

Age · Dec 02, 2008, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackknight1337

Cerb used 55 in normal mode, his HM stuff was done with 600 and a modded smiter.

Inferno covered the rest of your points rather well. I might also add that a build not being on here or on pvx means nothing, keg farming wasn't on there for months, and look at how well that works.

To my Knowledge cerb as never used 600 build if you can post a link with him using it.

I ignore you Tyael as you like to bait with me and I have been here longer.

blackknight1337 · Dec 02, 2008, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

To my Knowledge cerb as never used 600 build if you can post a link with him using it.

I ignore you Tyael as you like to bait with me and I have been here longer.

Go to Cerb's UW guide, #17 as he labels it, i believe it is. Contains a link to another thread, wherein he explains how he did HM UW.

And lets drop the crap about having been here longer, its meaningless and is pretty childish. Not to mention while they can be taken as slightly demeaning, Tyrael's points are crystal clear and 100% correct.

A Simple Farmer · Dec 02, 2008, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

To my Knowledge cerb as never used 600 build if you can post a link with him using it.

I ignore you Tyael as you like to bait with me and I have been here longer.

challenge accepted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerb

Thanks for the mention but to be honest I don't think this build is efficient. You can CLEAR uw with the same two professions in both NM and HM, much faster and safer.

- Basically, you are just using both characters to deal damage. Obviously, monsters should die faster. However, if you take into account the time it takes to wait after each group for the smiter to regen enough energy to move onto the next, it quickly cancels out that advantage (mainly applies to Labyrinth & Ice Wastes).

- Bone Pits can be very dangerous without a constant Spellbreaker. The monsters have life stealing for one, and Chained Souls are another problem. Now, in theory, you should be able to kill one group before Spellbreaker wears of. In Hard mode you have to remember that >3 melee = run away, and also you have to take into account cast times from monsters. For instance, Dead Collectors will raise minions from corpses and cast Well of Power, both of which take some time to cast, during which they aren't attacking (thus taking no damage). Of course, if you get rended you can run away and recast all your enchantments, but that's not very efficient.

- Clearing Chaos Planes will be quite a job too. You cannot keep a constant Spellbreaker on, so you have to kill one group, move back, wait until Spellbreaker recharges, go in again, etc. Also, forget that area in Hard Mode. You will need a constant Spellbreaker because groups of 6 and especially 9 Mindblades won't die in 28s (duration for 16DF SB with Blessed Aura + 20% wep). If you try to drop the Smite to keep a constant SB on (in normal like in hard mode), you will get the first SB off but once you have came in range to cast something, the next thing you will attempt to cast will be interrupted.

We have cleared UW in Hard Mode in 3:45 (how long did it take you?) with the following build:

Mo/E Tank (Yes Arcane Echo would work too)
[skill]Protective Spirit[/skill] [skill]Spirit Bond[/skill] [skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill] [skill]Glyph of Swiftness[/skill] [skill]Spell Breaker[/skill] [skill]Life Bond[/skill] [skill]Essence Bond[/skill] [skill]Blessed Aura[/skill]

N/Mo Smiter (Yes Mo/N would work too)
[skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill] [skill]Insidious Parasite[/skill] [skill]Defile Defenses[/skill] [skill]Holy Wrath[/skill] [skill]Retribution[/skill] [skill]Balthazar's Spirit[/skill] [skill]Vital Blessing[/skill] [skill]Rebirth[/skill]

link: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...59&postcount=8