Curse

etek · Apr 16, 2008, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skinny Corpse

I know it has become pretty big thread but we've been over this several times before..
We have different connections and even different ISP's.. we DO live in the same town but that's the only thing we have in common.

ok m8, i didn' notice...

CoonerTheRed · Apr 23, 2008, 07:17 PM // 19:17

i've read the first few pages of this, but not them all, so forgive me if I've missed this.

First, it seems obvious to me that generating pseudo random variables based upon clock time is the way to go. It's almost definitely based upon server system time as well, so no rolling your clock back or anything

So syncing two entries generating 90% of the same loot makes a lot of sense to me. You'd absolutely want to do this kind of thing with a lazy algorithm, where generators are instantiated but not called unless they're needed. So seeds could be set at the beginning before anything is actually instantiated. This would indicate that all the seeds would be set immediately, with no delay for computation.

A couple ways to check that:

First, as a control, are you certain the location/spawn happens at the same time as the treasure generation? Meaning, if you miss a sync, are the drops different? Or is it possible to match seeds for items, but not for monster placement?

Second, are you certain that all drops are determined from a single pseudo-random number?

Here's how I would do a treasure generator... when a region class is instantiated, various parameters and a pseudo-random number generator are used to locate monsters. Also, N (where N is the number of species of monsters, each with their own set of droppable items) treasure-generator instances are created. Note the random numbers aren't actually allocated until the monster dies (lazy algorithm), but the generators are all instantiated.

The point being that different monsters have different potential items to drop. Is it possible that the difference is because you're hitting N-1 of the generators with the exact same seed, but the Nth is delayed a bit, or load balancing isn't quite perfect, etc, so that the two servers you are on take a bit different times to spawn the level and one generator is off.

So the second question: are the "non-identical" items coming from the same type of monsters? Or the same profession monsters? It seems obvious to me that different sets of items means multiple generators, not a causality due to build.

Nechtan Thaumaturge · Apr 25, 2008, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoonerTheRed

First, as a control, are you certain the location/spawn happens at the same time as the treasure generation? Meaning, if you miss a sync, are the drops different? Or is it possible to match seeds for items, but not for monster placement?.

I don't know that anyone has really tested this, because setting up a sync is somewhat tricky in the first place. Since it takes 5-20 attempts to get it right, I usually ditch out as soon as I notice the spawns are different. I will say this, however: I had several near-syncs, where the initial two groups were identical, but not the rest. My first indication that something was wrong was that none of the drops corresponded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoonerTheRed

So the second question: are the "non-identical" items coming from the same type of monsters? Or the same profession monsters?

It's been a few weeks since I've tried any runs, so I might be a bit foggy in my recollections, but my sense is that when the drops didn't agree, it was because one creature didn't drop anything for one or the other character, not because that creature dropped two different items. It's nearly impossible to say precisely, though, since there's not really any way to tell one Skale Lasher apart from another if they are in the same group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoonerTheRed

... are you certain that all drops are determined from a single pseudo-random number?

Your hypothesis covers the appearance of the non-identical drops nicely; however, from a practicability standpoint, it seems less likely than the one-generator hypothesis. If I'm understanding you right, you'd need on the order of a hundred generators -- one for each monster, chest, etc. -- for each instance of each zone. Now, that could be done easily enough, but, imagining ourselves as the programmers here, what is the advantage over having a single generator? It's going to use up memory, clock cycles, and your time and effort, but won't produce significantly more "randomness".

The theory that makes the most sense to me is that all the drops are identical, it's just that certain drops are "filtered" or disallowed. In other words, all the drops are generated on zone-in and bound to a specific creature, each according to its own drop table. Then, when the creature is killed, some algorithm decides who gets the drop, if anyone. I'm not prepared to say what this algorithm keys on, but the number of kills within a recent timeframe, the number of times you've warped into a zone recently, and sheer randomness are the sorts of things that spring to mind. Loot-scaling would be tied up in this filtering action, also. Having said all this, however, remember that any theory about the inner workings of the drop mechanism is strictly speculation.

Dual Cannon · Apr 26, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Wow, nice work fellas! And Nice dead swords too :P

Icy The Mage · Jun 14, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Yep, I've always known that the drops were determined when you entered the place, not how/how fast you kill the enemies.

After 5000 or so Raptor Runs, I realized that using Sliver or Nuking produces the same loot at the end of the day...

starlitesunset · Jun 15, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

how about , 1 person from this forum goes into the town u and your brother both record the runs, the person in town countsdown for you to enter, then when your done wait at the town, all join same party go outside together and drop all the loot on the ground so 2 videos.

because this is hard to believe

AntiLamer · Jun 18, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

This led me and my brother to dig a bit deeper to get some sort of proof of this or that.

So both of you got the same IP? Maybe it matters.

Anyway nice work

Skinny Corpse · Jun 19, 2008, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntiLamer

So both of you got the same IP? Maybe it matters.

Anyway nice work

No we don't.

Different locations, different ISP's.

weretoad · Jun 21, 2008, 12:27 AM // 00:27

gj fantastic work, but i don't totally believe my eyes! same stats is what puts me off

The True SPitFire · Jun 24, 2008, 04:41 AM // 04:41

I don't post here much but for what its worth, it is defiantly not the algorithm IS NOT IP related. My friend and I LAN all the time, we get very different drops, we will try this tomorrow since were on LAN it should be easier to sync.

Actually, ill just do the dual instancing of GW and use his and mine account, and make a global macro to enter UW or somthing.

Ill let yall how that goes.

Y Tim K · Jun 30, 2008, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Skinny Corpse How do you have 50 energy on your monk??

BTW good research but i cant get half of waht you got using your build.

malko050987 · Jun 30, 2008, 06:07 AM // 06:07

You're not doing it right

As for the energy, he's probably using a focus along with some radiants.

Skinny Corpse · Jun 30, 2008, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y Tim K

Skinny Corpse How do you have 50 energy on your monk??

BTW good research but i cant get half of waht you got using your build.

I've got radiant insignias on every armor piece, as malko050987 said, a +5 energy
inscription on my weapon and the Grim Cesta wich gives ya +6 energy and +3 energy while enchanted.
All this plus the +4 morale boost.

Regarding the drops.. not every run looks like those we've chosen
as the one without golds, purples aren't good for comparison.. it's the rares and
purples that are interesting.

Buzzer · Jul 01, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Sorry if this has already been covered but do you get the same items from chests too?

Skinny Corpse · Jul 01, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzzer

Sorry if this has already been covered but do you get the same items from chests too?

Indeed we do.. both the same chest location and item from it.

Evera · Jul 01, 2008, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Sorry if this was mentioned before, but computers generate "random" code not so "randomly." They generate pseudorandom numbers from a function of its clock. Seeing as how it's very unlikely both of these two entered the areas at EXACTLY the same time, there may be a window for generating items, i.e. rand produces a value from 1-30, then this drops, 31-90, this drops, etc.

There's no use in trying to decipher the formula.. You're not going to a) find the formula's return values, and b) find which values correspond to which items.

It's just interesting on the game mechanics: drops aren't generated in real time. While loading, your item drops are predefined. It's most likely done this way to lighten server load.

That's my 2 cents.

Chico · Jul 01, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Have you guys tried syncing with teams of 2 players?

This way we could also find out if the same loot is assigned to player 1 of team 1 and player 1 of team 2 or if individual 'who gets what' is decided on the fly. Don't you think it'll be interesting to know that?

Maybe at the start of the instance all the mobs are assigned their loot (proven already) but loot assignment to individual players within the instance is random. That would explain why some players 'feel' some of their chars are unlucky.

Nechtan Thaumaturge · Jul 02, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chico

Have you guys tried syncing with teams of 2 players?

This way we could also find out if the same loot is assigned to player 1 of team 1 and player 1 of team 2 or if individual 'who gets what' is decided on the fly. Don't you think it'll be interesting to know that?

That does sound interesting. You'd need four participants, though. If anybody wants to try this in game but needs another player, whisper to me in game or leave a message here.

Nechtan Thaumaturge · Jul 09, 2008, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chico

Have you guys tried syncing with teams of 2 players?

...

Maybe at the start of the instance all the mobs are assigned their loot (proven already) but loot assignment to individual players within the instance is random. That would explain why some players 'feel' some of their chars are unlucky.

Well, I tried it out the other day, in a way. I used two accounts and set up both with Ogden Stonehealer and 600/smite-ish builds.

I ran two trials and found essentially the same thing in both cases. Discounting coin drops, slightly less than half of the total drops were shared. This is what you would expect to happen if two identical sets of drops were each randomly split two ways. Therefore, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you could look in Ogden's inventory, you'd find the majority of the missing drops. Needless to say, loot distribution is not fixed in the same way that drops are. The governing algorithm re-seeds the random number generator or otherwise injects another source of "randomness" into the process.

Also, I wanted to mention that on the second run the chest spawns did not correspond, although the creature spawns were identical. That's never happened to me before on a successful sync, but I remember someone asked about the possibility of this happening.

Now Diabolical · Jul 17, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Hello,
I hope this wasn't mentioned at all.
Of course, in german Forums is the Synchronisation also discussed.
And i have an idea.

In my opinion, it is as legal as using Texmod.

First, you need two Guild Wars Accounts.
After managing that, you need a Logitech G15 Keyboard with KeyboardProfiler or anything similar.
Then you need the Tool to star Guild Wars twice on one Computer.
Now you put "Always Running" (Standartkey is "R") on one G-Key, maybe G5.

Then you start both Clients with this Guild Wars Profil in the KeyboardProfiler.
Then put both Chars next to each other, walk through the next Portal and farm.

I would try it by myself, but i don't have two Accounts.

If this was already mentioned, i never wrote something.

Good Luck,
Now