Curse

Alex the Great · Mar 03, 2010, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Before I say anything, let me just make it clear that I never did speed clears with SF. I recently rejoined the game after a 6 month hiatus, and these are just my observations.

Alright, firstly, ecto prices have risen. This serves to add to the fortune of anyone who already was farming the UW with SF teams.

Secondly, the nerf didn't go far enough in ending the speed clears. They are still possible, but they need much more cohesive teams, making them much harder for the average guild wars play to become involved in. Teams now are much more likely to be guild teams that are highly experienced. This raises the bar for players who want to participate in elite areas with success.

In my opinion (and this is just me), the only viable solution is to completely flatten speedclears with the nerfbat. Go through and nerf enough skills so that the insanely fast runs we've seen in the past are never possible again.

Then, go through and buff underused classes (rangers, dervish, mesmers, paragons).

lastly, to compensate for the area's slower completion time, greatly increase the drop rates on rare items, ectos, and chest drops.

This would serve to allow better players (who will still complete runs faster), to garner the same amount of riches, while giving players that have less time, have more laid-back guilds, or who play underpowered classes a crack at those same areas.

comments? (if I messed up my grammar, forgive me, I'm very tired)

bhavv · Mar 03, 2010, 03:41 AM // 03:41

FoW / UW and other elite area end rewards simply need to be boosted a lot more to entice more people to play as a group and to clear the whole thing. Make group play and completion more rewarding then solo play, and people will enjoy doing it. Provide next to nothing for over 60 minutes in an elite area as the game currently is means hardly anyone can be bothered to play in a full group to clear the whole place.

Konker2020 · Mar 03, 2010, 03:47 AM // 03:47

So in other words, to solve a problem that is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, beat the shit out of skills used in particular farming builds so that they will never see use in any build ever again. Then, take the time to buff the shit out of classes that people QQ about. Sounds like you need to rethink things. GW is about being able to play with teamwork or alone and ANET promotes solo play, the accomplished their goal of slowing things down without destroying them. Everything is fine as it is.

Alex the Great · Mar 03, 2010, 03:49 AM // 03:49

I feel like this should be extended to dungeons as well. I finished Sepulcher of Dragmirr (sp? lol) in hardmode with H/H the other day, and it took a really long time. In the end I was treated to a purple monk staff, and a q12 gold hammer. Needless to say, i wasn't really excited...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

So in other words, to solve a problem that is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, beat the shit out of skills used in particular farming builds so that they will never see use in any build ever again. Then, take the time to buff the shit out of classes that people QQ about. Sounds like you need to rethink things. GW is about being able to play with teamwork or alone and ANET promotes solo play, the accomplished their goal of slowing things down without destroying them. Everything is fine as it is.

Skills can be reworked to be very good without having a particular use in farming. And yeah, classes that people QQ about aught to be buffed. I've deleted both my ranger and my dervish, because there is just no reason to have either class at the moment, and that's a shame.

I don't understand why anyone would be against making it easy to get stuff, and buffing underused classes. Neither of those idea's seem to be contrary to anyone's enjoyment. Will you quit if mesmers are good, and you can get money by playing the game without using X-team build or Y-solo farmer?

bhavv · Mar 03, 2010, 03:55 AM // 03:55

In this game, when you complete a dungeon or elite area after spending over an hour, you get next to nothing as opposed to simply just farming with lockpicks.

In other games, when you complete elite areas and dungeons, you get brilliant loot that cant be obtained through solo play.

The GW method simply isnt fun or enjoyable enough to make group play enjoyable or worthwhile.

Konker2020 · Mar 03, 2010, 04:00 AM // 04:00

But what you're talking about is making farming(easy) impossible, and making dungeon runs, etc.(pretty easy) rediculously easy. All you're talking about doing is making things extremely easy for those who don't farm which will take the fun out of it for those that already find every hardmode dungeon easy. Farming is fine for use as is solo play and team play. Most professions are completely fine, but people don't like that others can do things better than those. I know of several Dervish and Ranger builds that can completely outdo any build of other professions. Stop staring at PvX and expecting the builds posted to be the only ones that you can use. The game is about versatility and you want everything to follow a linear model of uniformity, I don't see how people can want to make the game easier. It is absurd how easy it is right now.

snaek · Mar 03, 2010, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavy

In other games, when you complete elite areas and dungeons, you get brilliant loot that cant be obtained through solo play.

its a double-edged sword really...gw's elite areas and dungeons can (or could) be beaten through solo play and so there is no brilliant loot. remove the ability to beat them through solo play (sf/600 nerf was a step in the right direction), and you should then be able to offer 'brilliant loot'.

my ideal situation...let farmers farm explorable areas (i.e. raptor farming) and leave the elite missions and dungeons to organized teams.

Alex the Great · Mar 03, 2010, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

But what you're talking about is making farming(easy) impossible, and making dungeon runs, etc.(pretty easy) rediculously easy. All you're talking about doing is making things extremely easy for those who don't farm which will take the fun out of it for those that already find every hardmode dungeon easy. Farming is fine for use as is solo play and team play. Most professions are completely fine, but people don't like that others can do things better than those. I know of several Dervish and Ranger builds that can completely outdo any build of other professions. Stop staring at PvX and expecting the builds posted to be the only ones that you can use. The game is about versatility and you want everything to follow a linear model of uniformity, I don't see how people can want to make the game easier. It is absurd how easy it is right now.

1) dungeon runs don;t get any easier, only more rewarding.
2) You must really love farming. How is that any harder than dungeon runs?

3)Dervish and ranger builds that can outdo any other profession? Well, i guess you're right. Dervishes can outdo any other profession at standing around for an hour casting enchantments, then hitting once for 200 damage, and Rangers can outdo other classes at interrupting...except in hard mode where things cast on steroids (or degening things to death slooooooly...or running and hiding and constantly rezing a pet with the worst AI ever). At least mesmers have VoR and can spam necrosis (oh wait, they nerfed lyssa's aura+necrosis....)

4) I'm fighting linear uniformity. I don't want to have to use the cookie cutter farming or speedclear team to make money. I want to run something fun that will finish the dungeon, and get a decent reward out of it.

MagmaRed · Mar 03, 2010, 04:12 AM // 04:12

I think I realized the majority of the VOCAL players and Anet themselves have forgotten about new players. Most people I see discussing the issue of skills like Shadow Form are long time players with lots of experience with the game. This is good, but the discussion is about how those long term players play the game. The PvE skill nerfs are generally based on abuses by 'farmers'. I understand and support the nerfs for those situations for most cases. However, I rarely see things changed in a way that allows newer players, or less active players to make use of the changes. Shadow Form was a good change. It allows the casual and new player to still use the skill effectively, while it makes the farming uses much slower/harder.

I'd just like to see more of the farming nerfs done in a way that allows the skills to still be effective for general use.

snaek · Mar 03, 2010, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by magmared

Most people I see discussing the issue of skills like Shadow Form are long time players with lots of experience with the game.

discussing sf, yes; using sf, i'd have to say doubtful. i know players who haven't even beaten all 3 campaigns, yet they have cleared uw at least 100+ times.

Quote:

I'd just like to see more of the farming nerfs done in a way that allows the skills to still be effective for general use.

there are over 1000+ skills. while i agree with you, look how long it has taken them to finally nerf sf--i'd rather they smiter's boon it. it won't be missed alongside the other 500+ useless skills. i mean it'd be totally awesome if the skills "effective for general use" would sit over 50% of the total amount of skills in gw, but its not and i'm not sure if anet is capable of doing this.

The-Bigz · Mar 03, 2010, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex the Great

1) dungeon runs don;t get any easier, only more rewarding.
2) You must really love farming. How is that any harder than dungeon runs?

3)Dervish and ranger builds that can outdo any other profession? Well, i guess you're right. Dervishes can outdo any other profession at standing around for an hour casting enchantments, then hitting once for 200 damage, and Rangers can outdo other classes at interrupting...except in hard mode where things cast on steroids (or degening things to death slooooooly...or running and hiding and constantly rezing a pet with the worst AI ever). At least mesmers have VoR and can spam necrosis (oh wait, they nerfed lyssa's aura+necrosis....)

4) I'm fighting linear uniformity. I don't want to have to use the cookie cutter farming or speedclear team to make money. I want to run something fun that will finish the dungeon, and get a decent reward out of it.

At least they have wishful thinking.

Where A-Net went wrong in PvE in my opinion (yes I have posted this on the 900 QQ PvE r bad nao threads):
Arena Net nerfed an instance/area/dungeon instead of the overpowered build used to run it. Arena Net nerfed game content that they created. Wait wut? Someone repeat that, gaming company nerfed a whole instance rather then nerfing the OP build used to farm it, and then on top of it nerfed the overpowered build as well? Wait wut? I still dont get this.

Go no reward for finally completing a mission after 2 hours with a shitter pug that could have failed at the last moment and took 1 hour and 59 minutes of your life away with virtually no reward rather then 2 pixels that mean oh so much? Wait wut? I'm still in disbelief.

Thats why I PvP, which is getting nerf batted and stale meta'd and 'MY WAY OR GTFO' from Guru right now, well actually after reading some of the common QQ's and then looking at the posters history, they are usually the reason for most of the retarded shit that has happened to guild wars over the years.

Shitters give advice, Arena Net listens, Arena nets playerbase becomes progressively shittier. Big Surprise.

Shayne Hawke · Mar 03, 2010, 05:12 AM // 05:12

/yawn

It's this kind of thread again...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex the Great

Secondly, the nerf didn't go far enough in ending the speed clears. They are still possible, but they need much more cohesive teams, making them much harder for the average guild wars play to become involved in. Teams now are much more likely to be guild teams that are highly experienced. This raises the bar for players who want to participate in elite areas with success.

I hope I've made my point.

Quote:

In my opinion (and this is just me), the only viable solution is to completely flatten speedclears with the nerfbat. Go through and nerf enough skills so that the insanely fast runs we've seen in the past are never possible again.

Combined with the previous paragraph, I do agree that speed clears need to go away.

I am confused though as to whether you think that a step towards making speed clears more difficult or more time consuming is a waste of an update (though we could argue just how much extra difficulty or time consumption is added given the time it takes to update as another point entirely), or whether you are just sour at this because now it's supposedly taking more skilled players with greater coordination to take on an elite area.

Quote:

Then, go through and buff underused classes (rangers, dervish, mesmers, paragons).

We do not need to bring classes that are subpar in PvE in line with classes and skills that are broken in PvE. It should be the other way around.

Quote:

lastly, to compensate for the area's slower completion time, greatly increase the drop rates on rare items, ectos, and chest drops.

No.

KZaske · Mar 03, 2010, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex the Great

Before I say anything, let me just make it clear that I never did speed clears with SF. I recently rejoined the game after a 6 month hiatus, and these are just my observations.

Alright, firstly, ecto prices have risen. This serves to add to the fortune of anyone who already was farming the UW with SF teams.

Secondly, the nerf didn't go far enough in ending the speed clears. They are still possible, but they need much more cohesive teams, making them much harder for the average guild wars play to become involved in. Teams now are much more likely to be guild teams that are highly experienced. This raises the bar for players who want to participate in elite areas with success.

In my opinion (and this is just me), the only viable solution is to completely flatten speedclears with the nerfbat. Go through and nerf enough skills so that the insanely fast runs we've seen in the past are never possible again.

Then, go through and buff underused classes (rangers, dervish, mesmers, paragons).

lastly, to compensate for the area's slower completion time, greatly increase the drop rates on rare items, ectos, and chest drops.

This would serve to allow better players (who will still complete runs faster), to garner the same amount of riches, while giving players that have less time, have more laid-back guilds, or who play underpowered classes a crack at those same areas.

comments? (if I messed up my grammar, forgive me, I'm very tired)

Buff underused classes; where do you think Shadow Form came from? It got buffed about two yeas ago because no one was playing assassins.
Increase drop rates? Loot Scaling applies to most drops but not to any of the item classes you are refering too. We have been lead to believe that the drop rates for rare items, ectos and chest drops have not changed since the introduction of Hard Mode. Oh, wait... Hard mode simply improves the odds of rare drops, or so we are told.

Basicly, Arena Net has been trying to keep players happy while allocating almost no resourses to it. Many of the changes they made since the introduction were requested by players. Fans of PvP pushed PvP into the core of Factions (we all know how that turned out). Solo players go thier wish for equipable henchmen with changeable builds (Heros) with the addation of NightFall so now PuG are at the very least difficult to find. I guess when a bad idea gets yelled loud enough and long enough it becomes a good idea.

Kate Monster · Mar 03, 2010, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Is is just me or is it that no one is going to be happy until everyone else is playing the game exactly how everyone else wants them to play it? Can't we all just STFU and play the game? And if you don't like how someone is playing the game, then why can't you go play with yourself. Sheesh.

Arduin · Mar 03, 2010, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Let me counter your first point by saying ecto only has risen in price because people were anticipating the big nerf, and thus hoarding ecto. More, the ecto price has been in a steady decline now since the 'nerf' hit, the ability to once again solo Chaos Planes only speeding this process up.

Carry on.

bhavv · Mar 03, 2010, 06:05 AM // 06:05

I simply dont understand why they couldnt have left SF as it was, and instead place in new types of Dying Nightmares in elite areas and dungeons with this skill added to their skill bar:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Signet_of_disenchantment

Just maybe buff it not to remove all energy, nothing wrong with doing so really.

odinvallhalle · Mar 03, 2010, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Same crap differant day

Fellfoot · Mar 03, 2010, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Well, I'm over what's been done to the 600/smite team... was fun while it lasted

... anywho, I totally agree with making end chest drops better (even in NM)... now I'm not talking about making end chests give crazy loot (like a green + a gold + rare mats EVERY time)... I'd be really happy just getting at least a gold + greater quantities of rare mats EVERY time -or- if no gold or green drop THIS time, then a big heaping pile of rare mats (10-12?)... oh yeah, and I'm getting really irritated by the "one-off's" (HCT 9%, xx+1 19%, etc.) from EotN dungeon chests... *rage*

...argh! If I spend time finishing the place at least give me a max item with max inscrips/mods!!! ... *cough* ... Please?!

holleratchalater,

Fellfoot

sportacus · Mar 03, 2010, 06:34 AM // 06:34

It seems silly that half of the professions are a-o-k to solo farm or speedclear, while the other half is never used because it's so inefficient. Whether there's a nerfbat involved or a buff(er)? involved, I don't mind as long as all classes become competitive (at least in terms of solo farming speeds) with respect to each other.

Alex the Great · Mar 03, 2010, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

Quote:
lastly, to compensate for the area's slower completion time, greatly increase the drop rates on rare items, ectos, and chest drops.

No.

Awwwww. Are you worried your equipment will be 10% less 1337 because it's easier to get? I'm soooooo sorry.

Making dungeon/elite area chest rewards easier to get is a huge step in the direction of making the areas fun and worthwhile..