Curse

impulsion · Jun 03, 2011, 06:53 PM // 18:53

I want to know precisely how the A.I reacts when in AoE dmg that casues scatter (e.g. lava font). Here is what I have worked out so far:

Some skills cause scatter, whilst others don't. Examples of skills which cause scatter:
Mark of Pain, Lava Font, Snow Storm

Some skills which do not cause scatter:
Spiteful Spirit, Whirling Defense

There are two types of "scatter" commonly referred to:

Type 1: Only affects melee enemies (and some enemies in this state by default e.g. dream riders), and it triggers when they get below ~75% hp and there are more than 3 enemies attacking a target at once. It doesn't matter what dmg they are taking etc., only how low their hp is. What happens is all but 3 enemies will become "dislocated" and hover around waiting to regen.

Type 2: STriggers on both casters and melee characters. It depends upon the damage skill used, RoJ famously did not cause this type of scatter before it was fixed. What happens is the enemy will run away to try and get out of the damage area, but will return to attacking after a few seconds.

Here I am not talking about type 1, it is well known how the A.I. behaves in this condition, and so more a sort of A.I. mode rather than a scatter.

The Type 2 is what I am interested in. I know that it is possible to block enemies so that when they are trying to scatter they get stuck and just stand in the AoE dmg doing nothing, however I can't reproduce this consistently and when I get it to happen it is mostly by luck. I remember back in the old chaos plains farm it was possible in normal mode to stop this type of scatter by keeping your hp under ~25% (I am not sure if this also applies to HM).

So basically if you know anything about how the A.I. behaves with respect to this "type 2" scatter then please post it =)

Spiritz · Jun 03, 2011, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Type 2 to me is where you are in a mob of 3+ foes , in 3 or less they wont split on aoe dmg except skills like roj but when you hit above 3 ( 4 or more ) then type 1 will come into effect and aoe dmg will split but after a few secs of regen they usually jump in as another jumps out - sort of taking turns.
so a mob of 6 will split into 2 x 3 and will take turns when dmg or aoe happens to an extent.Its damn annoying on some farms where you want to kill foes fast and dont use aoe- gd example 330rt on halycon job sin farm - damn sins split on 4 or above and usually its a mob of 4 you get and its usuallu retibution that cause the split.

One thing that really confused me was when anet "fixed" the aoe split in hm - it was stated hm fixed but it also made same split happen in nm and the issue was hm split not both.

impulsion · Jun 03, 2011, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Nono that is all type 1 that you are talking about.

What I mean is like, say you just aggro a group with SF up to survive, and then cast fire storm on a mesmer enemy. The mesmer will run out of the fire storm and then keep attacking you. What I want to know is how the game decides in which direction the enemy decides to run, and in particular how to exploit this to keep the enemy in the dmg area.

Fay Vert · Jun 03, 2011, 10:33 PM // 22:33

If one "scatters" away to regen, if you hit it (spear/bow) it will come back to you.

impulsion · Jun 03, 2011, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

If one "scatters" away to regen, if you hit it (spear/bow) it will come back to you.

Again this is type 1. I'm not talking about when they become dislocated in order to regen. Attacking an enemy scattered from type 2 makes no difference.

pvp joda · Jun 04, 2011, 06:27 AM // 06:27

you have to get em at a wall on their left side if you stand in front of them one step away from the wall you will block em if they try too scatter

Bright Star Shine · Jun 04, 2011, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvp joda

you have to get em at a wall on their left side if you stand in front of them one step away from the wall you will block em if they try too scatter

I'm fairly certain Impulsion is aware of how you block enemies on a wall and has tried it.

This only prevents type 1 scatter btw. Not type 2, or at least not that I am aware of.

Fay Vert · Jun 04, 2011, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Are we sure that type 2 actually exists? Are there really two mechanisms at work here or just a set of things that affect scatter behaviour?

impulsion · Jun 04, 2011, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Yes there is absolutely two different types of scatter, or rather, the type 1 thing I wouldn't even really call scattering. I am well aware of how to manipulate enemies when they back off to regen health (and as Bright said I have of course tried these methods out on true scattering enemies without much effect).

You can test that what I am talking about exists by simply going into any area and casting lava font/firestorm etc. on any enemy.

I guess nobody knows much about this since no current-meta farms use skills that cause scatter. The old chaos plains farm with lava font used this, and the enemies would not scatter if you were under ~25% hp so everyone used to carry vamp weapons for this farm.

pvp joda · Jun 05, 2011, 06:16 PM // 18:16

type 2 won't work if you make 1 step away from the wall. if you are standing next to the wall they will move around you but if you make one step away they will try too escape trough you and the wall wich they can't ( tested it 2 mins ago with fire storm on minos )

impulsion · Jun 05, 2011, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Hmmm I am a complete idiot if that works but i thought I tested it, I'll try it out later.

impulsion · Jun 06, 2011, 11:31 AM // 11:31

OK tested this and it doesn't work. It is possibly linked with the type 1 thing. It seemed to work for 2 enemies, but when I had 4 melee creatures on me then 1 would break off, even with left side blocked and side step off the wall.

I noticed the following when blocking left side on the wall with a side-step:
Enemies need to get to ~50% hp before they scatter
As with type 1 it seems like 3 enemies will stay attacking you whilst the other regen.
I managed to block them totally as I want, but I am not sure of the true reason why they didn't scatter.
(testing on 2nd spawn of the 1st room in Foundry, in HM)

If you can answer some of these it may help:
were you in NM or HM?
how many enemies?
did you test until they died to check that they didn't scatter at a lower hp?
which wall did you block them on?

Bright Star Shine · Jun 06, 2011, 02:29 PM // 14:29

I know for a fact that if you do the Vaetirr farm in HM, you can stop them from scattering by pulling them so that they are blocked on both sides by the house and the pillar thing. I finally see your purpose and knowing why you want to do it might help me think of solutions.. Only problem: there is no way to block enemies in 1st room or second room as far as I know. In third room my guess would be using the tree, and in Fourth room I would pull yourself into the buttcrack and then DC'ing/SoH'ing to their other side (not completely sure what build you're using, I just know you're using Snowstorm), thus blocking their way out completely (would only work for 2nd and 3rd spawn). I don't know if blocking them on two sides will counter the scatter though, with vaetirrs it stopped them from scattering because of Wastrel's, but I'm not 100% sure if that falls under category 1 or 2, you should go try the same thing with snowstorm to see if it works;..

impulsion · Jun 06, 2011, 04:53 PM // 16:53

You can block enemies on both sides in room 1 by pulling to that weird bit of wall in the top left corner. However, this didn't fully block them, the place I managed to successfully block them is against the door to room 2 - I have suspicions that the A.I. does not realise that it cannot walk through closed gates when trying to decide where to run.

What I really want this for is room4. The end spawn with the Ki is a nightmare to kill, and I want to block everything and snow storm it. I tried out SoHing to the other side of the buttcrack, but I think that it's too small to block them in there - but of course this won't work for the ki group anyway.

I am using the build as on the solo foundry screenshot but LB signet is optional, I will replace that with some skill to kill the monk lord.

Bright Star Shine · Jun 06, 2011, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Yeh, I was thinking that spawn was your main problem (also, hence why I said would only work on 2nd and 3rd spawn^^). I still think you're insane for even trying, but I guess you'll never rest until you've somehow done everything people thought impossible in DoA...

Perhaps you could pull the Ki to the strange corner on the right side and block him there? Not sure if that would work though..

pvp joda · Jun 07, 2011, 09:24 AM // 09:24

nm about 8 enemies but didn't kill em just threw a firestorm on them too see what happens

Bright Star Shine · Jun 07, 2011, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvp joda

nm about 8 enemies but didn't kill em just threw a firestorm on them too see what happens

NM doesn't have scatter as much (if at all) as HM