Curse

Daddy · Apr 30, 2012, 05:01 PM // 17:01

I am a pongmei fan. Avg time is 1 chest/minute. HOWEVER I only run those chests that can drop echos. I start from Maatu Keep and run straight towards Tanglewood, but make the hard right hand turn and check for a chest that is close.

Its an old but short run. As far as best bang for the buck, this run has paid for itself (HM) via merch, runes, and elite tomes, for the last 3k chests. So close to 5k.

Bright Star Shine · Apr 30, 2012, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I just started using Shadow of Haste; thanks for the tip on that. I've been getting 2:10 consistently now, with 2:30 if the final chest is outside Droknar's. I've not been using heroes for my 2:10 times, either. I don't think they will speed me up, since I'm already shadowstepping like a mothertrucker and spamming Dash.

By average, I mean 3-5 runs with average times, because the chest spawns are random and therefore, I don't think 2 or 3 runs is accurate enough.

People continue to underestimate the power of SoH. Superraptors kept telling me how his build was better, but I saw a recent screenshot of him in Pongmei using it as well, guess he finally caved

Well, still 2:30/3 (I'm giving you some extra ground here, cause I took the average for Witman's to be ~2:40) is 1 chest/50 seconds and 3:40/4,3 (Pongmei) is 1 chest/51 seconds. With this little difference I wouldn't dare saying that Witman's is conclusively faster, especially if you take into account that if you run Witman's in NM, you'll actually lose money doing so, so you'd have to get money elsewhere to fund your lockpicks, whereas doing Pongmei HM actually yields me profit when selling my unids + elite tomes.

I currently don't have time to do more runs to get a conclusive answer on what the average time would be. I will try to do this some time later this week, though I don't have much time on my hands, so it will probably have to wait till this weekend. I'll gladly put it to the test though.

Coast · Apr 30, 2012, 05:53 PM // 17:53

zaishen chest if u got a lot of z keys, nothing is faster

HigherMinion · Apr 30, 2012, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

People continue to underestimate the power of SoH. Superraptors kept telling me how his build was better, but I saw a recent screenshot of him in Pongmei using it as well, guess he finally caved

Well, still 2:30/3 (I'm giving you some extra ground here, cause I took the average for Witman's to be ~2:40) is 1 chest/50 seconds and 3:40/4,3 (Pongmei) is 1 chest/51 seconds. With this little difference I wouldn't dare saying that Witman's is conclusively faster, especially if you take into account that if you run Witman's in NM, you'll actually lose money doing so, so you'd have to get money elsewhere to fund your lockpicks, whereas doing Pongmei HM actually yields me profit when selling my unids + elite tomes.

I currently don't have time to do more runs to get a conclusive answer on what the average time would be. I will try to do this some time later this week, though I don't have much time on my hands, so it will probably have to wait till this weekend. I'll gladly put it to the test though.

FYI, my build (I'm running as N/A also, because max dwarf)

Dwarven Stability
Dark Escape
Dash
Wastrel's Collapse
Death's Charge
"I Am Unstoppable!"
Heart of Shadow
Shadow of Haste

Hope that helps with your times ^^

esthetic · May 01, 2012, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Can someone tell me how to most efficiently get unlucky title points via chest runs? I spent some time on the rings and now i want to max unlucky.

HigherMinion · May 01, 2012, 05:51 PM // 17:51

For unlucky, run Witman's in HM. You have to go slightly slower than 2:10 average because you drop Wastrel's for Shadow Form, but it's definitely the shortest run. But as Reformed said; you will max unlucky naturally before Lucky anyway. NM would be more cost-effective.

Bright Star Shine · May 01, 2012, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

NM would be more cost-effective.

Again, it's been stated by many experienced chestrunner multiple times that running in HM is more cost-effective than NM, because of the drops you get. If you need to go for Lucky as well though, running HM won't really help you. But cost effectiveness doesn't apply in NM, and especially not in Witman's Folly. The gold drops you get in HM that are definite trash, you sell unid for 7=5k and the ones that might bring you a good buck (q9 swords, any shield that's been tested for +5xwH, q9-10 rare staffs etc) you id yourself. Doing this + selling elite tomes will get you at least break even, or maybe a little bit less if you have very low retain chance (<30%). And even in HM, the droprates in Witman's are terrible, at least Pongmei gives you the chance of getting a nice drop (and don't say it doesn't happen, I saw someone get a q9 tac +10vDemons +45wE Echovald after opening 10 chests) that can give you some money, even if it's just 20-30k.

HigherMinion · May 04, 2012, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Again, it's been stated by many experienced chestrunner multiple times that running in HM is more cost-effective than NM, because of the drops you get. If you need to go for Lucky as well though, running HM won't really help you. But cost effectiveness doesn't apply in NM, and especially not in Witman's Folly. The gold drops you get in HM that are definite trash, you sell unid for 7=5k and the ones that might bring you a good buck (q9 swords, any shield that's been tested for +5xwH, q9-10 rare staffs etc) you id yourself. Doing this + selling elite tomes will get you at least break even, or maybe a little bit less if you have very low retain chance (<30%). And even in HM, the droprates in Witman's are terrible, at least Pongmei gives you the chance of getting a nice drop (and don't say it doesn't happen, I saw someone get a q9 tac +10vDemons +45wE Echovald after opening 10 chests) that can give you some money, even if it's just 20-30k.

This is just ludicrous. I profit even just merching all my golds. If I wanted to profit properly, I would be able to. Golds honestly aren't scarce in NM; maybe 1:3 or so. Lockpicks tend to survive anywhere from 3-10 chests. A friend and I have been doing Witman's non-stop for the past few days now and we've found over 5 Sup Vigor runes, a few survivor insigs and a lot more major vigors. Those add up quickly and can be sold straight to the trader.

To profit from your HM Pongmei runs, I would be forced to stock up all the golds, not IDing them (bad, considering I'm title hunting), fill up my Xunlai and then sell any of the rare items I get in Kamadan, assuming they're perfectly modded. If not, it's gfg merch food.

EDIT: By the way, update on my average run time now that I'm comfortable with Shadow of Haste= 2:06.

snodaard · May 04, 2012, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Have you, yourself ever tried running pongmei HM
seems like you have no clue what you're saying about the run and about chest running in HM. you are just defending a chestrun that has long been a good one, but since HM and factions became less and less profitable.

+ you say you got sup vigors in some days of running. In pongmei 1/3 ~1/4 of the items will be runes, so sup vigors aren't rare there anyways. Also 1 semi good echovald shield or any other of the rare canthan items that can drop in this chestrun, will yield more gold then 20 perfect items from whitmans.

just my 2 cnts

HigherMinion · May 04, 2012, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by snodaard

Have you, yourself ever tried running pongmei HM
seems like you have no clue what you're saying about the run and about chest running in HM. you are just defending a chestrun that has long been a good one, but since HM and factions became less and less profitable.

+ you say you got sup vigors in some days of running. In pongmei 1/3 ~1/4 of the items will be runes, so sup vigors aren't rare there anyways. Also 1 semi good echovald shield or any other of the rare canthan items that can drop in this chestrun, will yield more gold then 20 perfect items from whitmans.

just my 2 cnts

I don't care about perfect items in Witmans. They're pretty rare in both places and it's better to just merch it all or save the random golds for a title hunter. "Semi-good" echoes are not common. I used to run Pongmei HM a lot as well as most of my guildies hunting echoes. The runs are tedious and rarely do you get a decent drop that is worth stopping the run to head off to Kama and sell. Elite tomes come more often, which is nice, but barely compensation for all the broken picks.

Think about it logically. 65% retention rate (my current stats at least, but that's what I'm basing this on) in NM. Picks are lasting so much longer, and golds don't always sell that much more than grapes to the merchant unless you're adamant you want to sell unids. You're always going to end up profiting more grinding out NM than HM in the long run.

aspi · May 04, 2012, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by snodaard

Have you, yourself ever tried running pongmei HM
seems like you have no clue what you're saying about the run and about chest running in HM. you are just defending a chestrun that has long been a good one, but since HM and factions became less and less profitable.

+ you say you got sup vigors in some days of running. In pongmei 1/3 ~1/4 of the items will be runes, so sup vigors aren't rare there anyways. Also 1 semi good echovald shield or any other of the rare canthan items that can drop in this chestrun, will yield more gold then 20 perfect items from whitmans.

just my 2 cnts

I did 100 picks in pongmei last days, now I know I always seem to have bad luck but this was just insane. More than half my drops were purple, the gold drops I got were stupid amber things. I got one echo(purple ofcz) and one goth single mod.
I refuse to give up because so far gw1 chests have never give me anything of more value than a sup vigor, I must get one drop even if its just a tad more worht than that

snodaard · May 04, 2012, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

You're always going to end up profiting more grinding out NM than HM in the long run.

you're still saying you'll always get more profits in NM then in HM. While very experienced chest runners like Bright have told you this isn't the case. So I find it quite useless to discuss on this subject, because you just bring the same invalid argument over and over again.

We are not trying to say Whitman's is a bad chestrun, it's just not the most efficient as you state. The most efficient chestrun has been highly debated in the chestrun topic, the sticky one on top of the farming section. So if you need some more information go take a look there.

Reformed · May 04, 2012, 01:58 PM // 13:58

I've got over 20k chests run and I'd like to see some hard numbers proving HM is more economical than NM for chest running if your goal is Treasure Hunter with the least expense. Lucky drops are by their very nature inconsistent. You could get the same amazing 1:100,000 shield drop in either mode.

Bright Star Shine · May 04, 2012, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

I've got over 20k chests run and I'd like to see some hard numbers proving HM is more economical than NM for chest running if your goal is Treasure Hunter with the least expense. Lucky drops are by their very nature inconsistent. You could get the same amazing 1:100,000 shield drop in either mode.

You sir, have got yourself a challenge. I have a second account that is sitting on 1,783 chests and 197,830 Lucky , and I will test both Pongmei HM and Witman's NM and note my earnings. I will do an equal amount of chests in both areas and see what is more profitable. I will conduct the research as follows: since Higherminion claims that he can stay at about break-even by merching everything, I will test this over a significant amount of chests. I will also do Pongmei HM and do my way: keep the shitty golds and sell them, id the normal ones. I'm not doing it on my main account (~13,5 chests and ~2,7mill Lucky) because this would give an unfair advantage and won't be representative for the chestrunner that wants to max his title.

Now, for the counting of my profits, I will note (and screenshot) my cash + treasure hunter progress before I start both of my tests. Also, because I don't want to waste time in kamadan selling my elite tomes, I will use the following calculations when it comes to elite tomes, using the pricing I always use when chest running myself.
Rit = 10k Necro, Ele and Monk = 7k Mesmer = 6k Warr and Ranger = 4k Ssin = 3k.
If you believe that this pricing is unrepresentative, please let me know. I will not sell any of the elite tomes I got, but I will include them in the end-screenshots to make a total earnings calculation. Since selling unids really doesn't take up that much time, I will go around actually selling them in kamadan.

I will run 200 chests in Pongmei and 200 chests in Witman's. If I find myself to be lacking of time this weekend, which I probably will, since my weekend is pretty packed, I will do 100/100, but I don't think 100 is a large enough number to be representative, so it's possible that I'll need more time than just this weekend to do the tests.

If you want HigherMinion, you can do the test as well, so that I can not be accused of foul play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snodaard

you're still saying you'll always get more profits in NM then in HM. While very experienced chest runners like Bright have told you this isn't the case. So I find it quite useless to discuss on this subject, because you just bring the same invalid argument over and over again.

We are not trying to say Whitman's is a bad chestrun, it's just not the most efficient as you state. The most efficient chestrun has been highly debated in the chestrun topic, the sticky one on top of the farming section. So if you need some more information go take a look there.

Although I am flattered, just taking my authority on the matter and using it as law is not the best thing to do, the scientist in me is shouting for me to point this out

That's why I'm also testing it at the moment, so that we can put this age-old discussion to rest (something I thought we already did, but mkey).

Whirl E Vic · May 04, 2012, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

I've got over 20k chests run and I'd like to see some hard numbers proving HM is more economical than NM for chest running if your goal is Treasure Hunter with the least expense. Lucky drops are by their very nature inconsistent. You could get the same amazing 1:100,000 shield drop in either mode.

Ok, I'll bite.
Assumptions:
r2 lucky, r2 TH for 20% inherent retention.
Item value: purple = 100g, gold = 700g, elite tome = 6k. Norm tomes are worth somewhere between purple and gold and are not separated out, since they wont differ too much from the value of purple/gold items to be worth the hassle of calculating separately.

NM chest drop: 25% gold, 75% purple

Witman's Run in NM
For 100 picks (cost of 125k from players)
Shiverpeak Chest in NM = 50% retain, 2 chest/pick expected value = 200 drops
50 gold items x 700g = 35 k
150 purple items x 100g = 15k
Total revenue from drops = 50k. Net loss of 75k.

Let's ignore elite tomes for now.
HM chest drop: 75% gold, 25% purple,
Pongmei HM = 20% retain, 1.25 chest/pick expected value = 125 drops
31 purples =3.1k
94 gold items = 65.6k
Total revenue = 68.7k. Net loss of 56k. So HM comes out ahead even without elite tomes.

Now assume HM Chest Drop = 72.5% gold, 22.5% purple, 5% elite tome (From my 12k chests, this seems like a reasonable elite tome rate.)
Same retain rate, so we get:
28 purples = 2.8k
91 gold = 63.7k
6 elite tome = 36k.
Total revenue = 102.5k. Net loss of 22.5k.

This is why vets will tell you that the tomes are so important, they are a major component of the return from chestrunning.

HigherMinion · May 05, 2012, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whirl E Vic

Ok, I'll bite.
Assumptions:
r2 lucky, r2 TH for 20% inherent retention.

Why not take into account the fact that you profit more the higher your retention rate in NM? I am r5 Lucky, r5 Treasure Hunter. That means I will yield much more profit from Normal Mode chests than someone with r2/r2.

snodaard · May 05, 2012, 08:32 AM // 08:32

If the ranks get higher, you'll also get more retains on HM so more items in HM. Which have a higher chance to be worth more. This way it will not change the fact that you'll get more money in HM then in NM.

Reformed · May 05, 2012, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by snodaard

If the ranks get higher, you'll also get more retains on HM so more items in HM.

You also have to take into account a 30% difference in retention between modes which never goes away.

What I'm really curious about here, to clarify, which is the better value to you as a fresh Treasure Hunter? A base retention increase (+30% on 600g) or Elite Tomes? With the titles maxed out there is no reason not to run HM.

snodaard · May 05, 2012, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

You also have to take into account a 30% difference in retention between modes which never goes away.

That's true indeed. but in the mathematical explanation where the ranks are t2 l2 there also is this difference. so if you will increase the ranks the 30% difference will stay. This way the money lost will be lower, but HM will still earn more money

Whirl E Vic · May 05, 2012, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Why not take into account the fact that you profit more the higher your retention rate in NM? I am r5 Lucky, r5 Treasure Hunter. That means I will yield much more profit from Normal Mode chests than someone with r2/r2.

Since I already have the spreadsheet set up, changing from r2 to r5 with the rest the same:

NM 65% retain = 285 chests= 71 gold, 214 purple ~ 71.5k
HM 35% retain (no tome) = 154 chests, 115 gold, 38 purple ~84k
HM w/tomes = 154 chests, 111.5 gold, 34.6 purple, 7.7 E tome ~ 128k (Profit!)

Math doesn't lie. HM is always better. Set up your own spreadsheet and prove it to yourself.