Curse

Earth · Dec 26, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Worst. Argument. Ever. If people vote on the build before even testing it, and then say "war much better", they have no idea what they're talking about. Oooooooooooh wait I know! Paragons shouldn't use axes because it's a l33t warrior weapon! I mean, these 2 votes: /agree, also useless vs. foes immune to Burning and pwn'd by Extinguish. 24.6.147.36 15:35, 24 December 2006 (CST)
Use a Warrior. — Rapta (talk|contribs) 15:19, 24 December 2006 (CST)

Shut up. "Use a Warrior". I expected a better argument from you Rapta. Also, there are no foes immune to burning. Sure, the bosses with Natural Resistance half the burning time, but it can be put on fast enough. And let's take a look at Extinguish, shall we? 15e cost, 1sec activation time, and oh, what's that? 12 second recharge? Seriously, if you can't beat the monk in 12 secs, you suck.

Yukito Kunisaki · Dec 26, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

I'm a pro war user who can't say 'use warrior' to this build no matter how many different ways you write it...

I can imagine a warrior using this build if he wants to do his axe damage to the max however, those shouts make the party a steamroller.

When u get the ability to do more damage by yourself, or boost the damage of EVERYONE including yourself [not to mention protect everyone, repeatedly, rapidfire, etc.] then yeah, no warrior can come close to this.

Only downfall I can see if if you fight an exclusively Melandru's Avatar Dervish army...

That's the only weakness. Extinguish? With THAT much recycle time, even, the elite, Martyr may only end up ripping you in half...

An excellent salute for a build that warriors can only come close to emulating...

/salute

Winstar · Dec 27, 2006, 06:37 AM // 06:37

is this for pvp or pve?

gogoblender · Dec 27, 2006, 04:44 PM // 16:44

pve
hook up the tof general with a searing ele and see everyone melt
this build is a nice christmas present

gogo

Made In Ascalon · Dec 27, 2006, 07:51 PM // 19:51

This build is awesome, how can it not be favored on guild wiki? Are they all idiots? I just don't understand it, the flaws with this build are NOT that bad.

This build isn't pwned by extinguish. The burning's gone for 12 seconds, and then it's back on because GFTE is so easily spammed. It's like using a heal party but with a 12 second recharge. What's so horrifyingly bad about the build?

alarico511 · Dec 28, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

u know if it would work for a P/R and replace triple chop and clyone axe with barrge and other stuff making it a burn barrger, so then ahh not a tank lol

-.- · Dec 28, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Then Burning won't trigger all the time on enemies.

Bloodied Blade · Dec 28, 2006, 06:16 AM // 06:16

The only problem I see really is that ToF is down for 10s at a time...which is kinda annoying when you're relying on it as a major damage reduction.

CagedinSanity · Dec 28, 2006, 06:16 AM // 06:16

I see only one command skill there, would this build work any good on reverse, as a W/P burner?

Racthoh · Dec 28, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by CagedinSanity

I see only one command skill there, would this build work any good on reverse, as a W/P burner?

Leadership is quite key to the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodied Blade

The only problem I see really is that ToF is down for 10s at a time...which is kinda annoying when you're relying on it as a major damage reduction.

Lasts for 20, recharges in 20 unless my eyes deceive me.

Anthem of Flame seems kinda... pointless. Your attack skills put you in melee, and GFTE spam + Blazing Finale is gonna put everything on fire anyway. Also the points into Command for GFTE... why not 9 into Motivation then use Finale of Restoration over Anthem of Flame?

CagedinSanity · Dec 28, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Oh dang, is leadership the Paragon primary? I had forgotten.
Then nevermind.

Zinger314 · Dec 28, 2006, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Anthem of Flame seems kinda... pointless. Your attack skills put you in melee, and GFTE spam + Blazing Finale is gonna put everything on fire anyway. Also the points into Command for GFTE... why not 9 into Motivation then use Finale of Restoration over Anthem of Flame?

You can't move the Command to Motivation, since GTFE is linked to Command. (and the extra crit chance does help!)

Anthem of Flame works at the beginning of a battle, causing Burning immediately. (without waiting for GTFE to charge).

gogoblender · Dec 28, 2006, 08:55 AM // 08:55

lol, funnily enough Anthem of flame is probably the most enjoyable part of this build for me as it it gives to the other members of the party within hearing range the ability to get all the enemies burning on their own. Burning Finale is/was actually the first skill I started tinkering with as it only gives the Paragon himself the ability to start everyone to burn. And if everyone else is doing the burn, well it's a majority of the party that we have now starting the burns leaving out only the paragon and perhaps an extra skill slot for him to use?
Getting everyone else to invididually burn all the foes increases the amount of fire damage done, is a major hoot to watch and, if yer runnin a Searing Ele on Zed (and even Cyn in the party if you REALLY wanna see stuff meltfast), the speed at which foes die is incredible.
I"ve replaced Agressive Refrain with Flail. The AI Paragon manages the constant run of this beautifully and the extra energy is good when yer runnin so fast to the next battle without waiting.
And because I"m using this build in pve right now I've also replaced Blazing Finale with Glowing Signet to help with energy management.
The OP posted a pretty awesome example of a paragon not just himself doing damage like a Warrior, but doing even better than a warrior by increasing overall kill speed for all the other members of the team.
LIke someone above said...it's like a steamroller if you can get enough well built Ele's on the team.
Cheers

gogo

AuraofMana · Dec 29, 2006, 02:19 AM // 02:19

I like builds that is weird (i.e. using weapon from a secondary class, like bunny thumper and this =P). I am about to go and do this on my Paragon to get her through PvE just because it looks fun and promising.
Still deciding what Axe to use, but Sundering (due to AOE) atm seems great, but then again, vamp is also a good choice. I can't pick one ><

Zinger314 · Dec 29, 2006, 03:13 AM // 03:13

I'm about to give up on the Wiki build Talk page. People don't understand how the build works...it's a shame.

Racthoh · Dec 29, 2006, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

You can't move the Command to Motivation, since GTFE is linked to Command. (and the extra crit chance does help!)

Based on your attributes, you would have 5 remaining points. Were you to swap the points into Motivation, you could still pump your Command to 3 (2 + 1) giving GFTE a 39% chance of critical hit. At 9, it's 57%. 18% seems hardly worth it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Anthem of Flame works at the beginning of a battle, causing Burning immediately. (without waiting for GTFE to charge).

In 4 adrenaline with Blazing Finale and GFTE, you've done the same thing. Also, Cyclone Axe or Triple Chop will have a pretty good shot of netting you that 4 adrenaline required to use GFTE. All Anthem of Flame is doing is speeding up the burning by one whole attack, which isn't exactly a damning gap. Factor in that other toons using attack skills are probably focusing fire, the burning is going to overlap and make no difference either. Or, it's going to hit an enemy that is already on fire from GFTE + Blazing Finale. For that matter, how many other toons are you bringing that are using attack skills to begin with to reap Anthem of Flame's benefit?

At the beginning of battle, how necessary is the damage reduction from They're On Fire! when you're at full health and your monks at full energy (or you've been pre-protted)? Considering you're a 96 AL target, you can afford a hit or two from the mobs before adrenaline is built. Whereas, the Finale of Restoration would remove some of that initial damage and trigger at the same time as when they start to burn from GFTE if you're willing to sacrifice that 18% difference in critical chance. Not to mention it can be tossed around the party providing heals for 25 seconds when a shout ends(at the 9 spec) as opposed to the 3 seconds of damage reduction from They're On Fire! granted by Anthem of Flame on initial aggro. Which as we know would overlap with Cyclone Axe or Triple Chop since they'll fill GFTE on their first use if the mob is clustered enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gogoblender

Burning Finale is/was actually the first skill I started tinkering with as it only gives the Paragon himself the ability to start everyone to burn.

Blazing Finale can be used on any non-spirit target.

Omnis · Dec 30, 2006, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Ok, I just thought I'd chime in even though I don't post much on these forums. I tried out the build, and, I agree that it is a fantastic idea.

However, Morgan doesn't perform with it. I have him using the endgame command shield and Wing's axe, but he doesn't have runes yet. He seldom, if ever, casts "They're on Fire!", blazing finale, or "Go for the eyes!" Most of the time, he just sits and spams Triple Chop, and I wind up having to micro him. It's a distraction.

So far, my Morgahn is much better suited to party support/motivation. Any suggestions on how I can fix what's going on with this ToF hero build?

Zinger314 · Dec 30, 2006, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omnis

Ok, I just thought I'd chime in even though I don't post much on these forums. I tried out the build, and, I agree that it is a fantastic idea.

However, Morgan doesn't perform with it. I have him using the endgame command shield and Wing's axe, but he doesn't have runes yet. He seldom, if ever, casts "They're on Fire!", blazing finale, or "Go for the eyes!" Most of the time, he just sits and spams Triple Chop, and I wind up having to micro him. It's a distraction.

So far, my Morgahn is much better suited to party support/motivation. Any suggestions on how I can fix what's going on with this ToF hero build?

For one, the build is nigh-unusuable without the proper Rune setup. You need 12 Leadership, since that's the cutoff for 3 second of Burning. That may be your problem: he laughs at his inferority.

Second, I don't notice many problems. He doesn't use ToF occasionally. but he's usually good. I believe Heroes have a "learning" AI.

Xiaxhou of Trinity · Dec 30, 2006, 06:25 AM // 06:25

[QUOTE=Made In Ascalon]This build is awesome, how can it not be favored on guild wiki? Are they all idiots? I just don't understand it, the flaws with this build are NOT that bad. QUOTE]

Well you know the saying that the minority has the loudest voice? In terms of complaints and shut downs of course. Anyways, better than a war? Great build but it's still playing the paragon role of party support, party buffs, party etc. So comparing it to a war is unfair and pointless.....It's a suitable warrior counterpart in a team for PvE, but again comparing the two doesn't make sense. I guess I can agree in the statement "overestimated warrior", because W/Mo has always been the standard for many things such as chest runs, etc. and since the monster ai warrior's are more favored than ever in solo farming builds (means us casters have to be more clever in our builds) I'm not implying anything about warriors, I love mine =] But pls dont degrade the warrior class in trying to make the argument that this para build>any war build.

Omnis · Dec 30, 2006, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

For one, the build is nigh-unusuable without the proper Rune setup. You need 12 Leadership, since that's the cutoff for 3 second of Burning. That may be your problem: he laughs at his inferority.

Second, I don't notice many problems. He doesn't use ToF occasionally. but he's usually good. I believe Heroes have a "learning" AI.

Okay, I'll keep that in mind and try it out as soon as I raise enough funds.

edit: Okay, Morgahn still doesn't use any of the echoes. The build is useless on him; I might as well bring Koss like the others have said, and keep Morgahn for party support.