Curse

Pericles · Aug 02, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

I've made a build which doesn't use eviscerate and therefore leaves a spot open to another more useful elite. Because dismember is much better than eviscerate imo i left Eviscerate out. Here it is:

Atts 16 axe mastery
rest in strength
13 tactics or 12

Armor glads or whatever you like, (i don't know what warriors wear)

Skills Soldiers' strike
Dismember
Agonizing chop
Healing sig
'WYS'
Flail
Charge
a cancel stance (rush/dash/pious haste/whatever)

Now people might say 3 attack skills is not enough but remember that soldiers strike is a spammable skill and dismember only costs 5 strikes of adren. This build helps out your teammates.

I'll add moer info in the future

blue.rellik · Aug 02, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

A warrior skill more useful than Eviscerate? Eviscerate is like the best warrior elite. Only Cripping Slash and Steady Stance can compare

Pericles · Aug 02, 2007, 11:47 AM // 11:47

No, that's my whole point, why do people like eviscerate so much?
Here's what i think: Eviscerate-unconditional deep wound and + max 33 damage (this has even been nerfed) and uses up elite slot. Here's dismember: unconditional DW for 5 adren strikes thus it's spammable and here's the good part: it doesn't use up an elite slot. People might say they like spiking with eviscerate-crit chop/agonizing chop (crit chop has also been nerfed)for pvp because in pve spiking is not of importance. As you can see in my build i put 'charge!' in for more team-mobility and to power Soldier's Strike.
This elite could be swapped out for glads defence, charging strike or whatever, and i like having several options for my elite skill slot.
So NO!, eviscerate is not an amazing elite, it's not even decent imo.

Akuma · Aug 02, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Eviscerate is amazing, your build does nothing, it's a gimped Stefan-clone.

Pericles · Aug 02, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akuma

Eviscerate is amazing, your build does nothing, it's a gimped Stefan-clone.

Do you even think about what you say in your posts?, i don't think so because you would've known that stefan is a swordwielder, also instead of mindlessly saying: 'Eviscerate is amazing' you could use some arguments to actually start some sort of debate in this thread. But that's probably too much effort for you.

Pericles · Aug 02, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35

For some reason i can't edit my post anymore so i'll just post the other info here:

Usage:
Use Charge when running up to foes, and immediately start spamming soldiers strike (this is always unblockeable) , when you have enough adren use flail and then the dismember-agonizing chop combo. Use 'WYS' if you have enough adren to use it and heal sig for heals ofcourse. Be sure to use 'Charge!' when running from fight to fight. Slot 8 is optional, sometimes i use it for axe twist (weakness is a nice condition on bosses and for debilitating melee foes to assist your midline casters), you can also bring a rez but since warriors often die first this is trivial. The beauty of 'Charge!' is that you don't really need to bring a cancel stance for flail because it almost negates the penalty.

Now people might say 3 attack skills is not enough but remember that soldiers strike is a spammable skill and dismember only costs 5 strikes of adren.

Stormlord Alex · Aug 02, 2007, 12:37 PM // 12:37

The build's a good one - I've always been a fan of Charge! (old skool sword warrior talking, here ^_^)

However... To say that Eviscerate isn't decent is silly. It offers some of the best damage-compression capacity in the game - Evis + Exe is nearing 300 potential damage, in 2 hits. It also condenses an already-packed warrior bar by being a DD attack *and* a DW in one. True enough, for a lot of PvE, Cleave or Triple Chop are better choices - stuff dies too fast for the spiking force of Eviscerate to see play - but against larger, tougher enemies, an Eviscerate spike wins out.
I'm talking of Monk bosses and Hell's Precipice, were fights consist of taking down single, tough opponents. Also, for HM areas - particualrly where smaller parties are enforced - the spiking power of an Evis, as opposed to your build or a Cleave bar, is what's needed to overwhelm them godsforsaken Grawl.

Pericles · Aug 02, 2007, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Plz tell me what you think of the build and possibly give me some back-up. I don't really want to turn this into a eviscerate vs dismember thread but I will respond to any1 who finds that i'm wrong.

blue.rellik · Aug 02, 2007, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Did you say Glad's defence? I'm sorry to say this but no-one will respect anything you say now. Not only do you think the best warrior elite is sub-par but you think a skill purely for crappy farming is better?

Try some PvP (and when I say PvP, I don't meant RA or AB or any crap like that). Most people are killed from spikes, your build provides nothing except deep wound and crappy damage. You're a warrior, not support. Charge is useful but you won't kill anything with it

Stormlord Alex · Aug 02, 2007, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Oh, and attribute wise - 12+1+1~3 Axe Mastery, 11+1 Tactics, and the rest (6, I think) Strength is the best spread - it hits the 10 sec breakpoint for Charge! and allows a longer Flail/Rush

Pericles · Aug 02, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

The build's a good one - I've always been a fan of Charge! (old skool sword warrior talking, here ^_^)

However... To say that Eviscerate isn't decent is silly. It offers some of the best damage-compression capacity in the game - Evis + Exe is nearing 300 potential damage, in 2 hits. It also condenses an already-packed warrior bar by being a DD attack *and* a DW in one. True enough, for a lot of PvE, Cleave or Triple Chop are better choices - stuff dies too fast for the spiking force of Eviscerate to see play - but against larger, tougher enemies, an Eviscerate spike wins out.
I'm talking of Monk bosses and Hell's Precipice, were fights consist of taking down single, tough opponents. Also, for HM areas - particualrly where smaller parties are enforced - the spiking power of an Evis, as opposed to your build or a Cleave bar, is what's needed to overwhelm them godsforsaken Grawl.

Finally some1 who posts something i can respond to, you're right i overreacted when i said eviscerate isn't even decent, but the thing i don't get is why people find the +33 damage so important for a spike? Soldiers strike does the same + damage and it's unblockeable+spammable. I'm still convinced that my build does more DPS and is more valuable to the team.
Also i really want to stress on the fact that my elite slotin this build is interchangeable, that's a big advantage.

Pericles · Aug 02, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Did you say Glad's defence? I'm sorry to say this but no-one will respect anything you say now. Not only do you think the best warrior elite is sub-par but you think a skill purely for crappy farming is better?

Try some PvP (and when I say PvP, I don't meant RA or AB or any crap like that). Most people are killed from spikes, your build provides nothing except deep wound and crappy damage. You're a warrior, not support. Charge is useful but you won't kill anything with it

Last time i checked it said: Campfire
Pve builds and discussion

So don't start about pvp plz, also warriors are not known for their damaging capabilities

blue.rellik · Aug 02, 2007, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pericles

Last time i checked it said: Campfire
Pve builds and discussion

So don't start about pvp plz, also warriors are not known for their damaging capabilities

I'm sorry but you're adding fuel to the fire. Charge is not a PvE elite. It is a PvP elite, I had assumed that you were talking about PvP since blocking is not so much a issue in PvE (unless you're fighting Kournan Bowman). Yes it can be useful in HM to help kiting but it's not worth losing your elite (or taking a Ward).

And warriors not know for damaging capabilities? lawl wut? Warriors are the best at dealing DPS. If a fight drags on long enough after the eles, necros, dervishs and sins are running low on energy, a warrior will still be there hammering away with their adrenaline attacks not needing to wait for their energy to get back before doing something.

Stormlord Alex · Aug 02, 2007, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pericles

also warriors are not known for their damaging capabilities

An untruth. Anyone with an ounce of sense knows warriors are incredible PvE damage dealers, moreso because stuff like Triple Chop really shines, and they don't encounter the oceans of melee hate that would hamper them in a PvP evironment.

Eviscerate is powerful in a spike beacause... Well... Let's start at the beginning.
A spike is all about outputting as much possible damage on a foe in the shortest possible time, right? And for warriors... Deep wound is a given. An easy 100 'damage', easy as shit to apply, deep wound is t3h pwn which kills stuff. rawr
Now... In your build, to 'spike' you'd need Dismember --> Soldier's --> Exe to match the potential of Evis. Your 'spike' takes a huge 50% longer to fire off, compared to just Evis --> Exe. When facing human monks, or the ninja HM Grawl, that's a very, very long time. Which is why Evis is used as a spiking attack - it compacts all the power of Dismember + an attack skill into the time it takes to attack once.

Thom Bangalter · Aug 02, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

you don't need to spike in pve, its why sword warriors are significantly better than axe warriors because when it comes to DPS (which is all that really matters in pve) dragon slash is king.

Racthoh · Aug 02, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pericles

I've made a build which doesn't use eviscerate and therefore leaves a spot open to another more useful elite.

Quote:

Armor glads or whatever you like, (i don't know what warriors wear)

Quote:

So don't start about pvp plz, also warriors are not known for their damaging capabilities

Quote:

you can also bring a rez but since warriors often die first this is trivial. The beauty of 'Charge!' is that you don't really need to bring a cancel stance for flail because it almost negates the penalty.

Quote:

a cancel stance (rush/dash/pious haste/whatever)

Like others I am sitting here in confusion at what I am reading. You think Eviscerate isn't useful, and your elite slot is better used to get yourself to the enemy faster to start spamming your Soldier's Strike.

You don't think warriors do damage but you're specced 16 axe, you say you don't need a cancel stance but bring one anyway. Warriors usually die first so you don't need a res, but weakness helps from Axe Twist when the enemies get on your midline. You're not sure what armour warriors wear but feel you can dismiss others that question your elite choice.

So I will ask you:

1) Why are you specced to 16 axe if you don't think warriors can deal damage?
2) What made you choose Agonizing Chop? What is the reasoning there?

Age · Aug 02, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

A warrior skill more useful than Eviscerate? Eviscerate is like the best warrior elite. Only Cripping Slash and Steady Stance can compare

Dragon Slash,Devastating Hammer and Backbreaker forgot those and yes Evis is the best "Axe" elite in the game.

To the OP what about a res.

blue.rellik · Aug 03, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

you don't need to spike in pve, its why sword warriors are significantly better than axe warriors because when it comes to DPS (which is all that really matters in pve) dragon slash is king.

You do in HM if you're fighting two monks. DPS isn't as good in HM as in NM since most monsters have way more life and armour and the monks there heal for insane amounts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Dragon Slash,Devastating Hammer and Backbreaker forgot those and yes Evis is the best "Axe" elite in the game.

To the OP what about a res.

Dragon Slash is good but isn't as great anymore since a DSlash build is typically about DPS which is easily mitigated in PvP. It roxors really hard in PvE though so I guess what I said is a moot point

I forgot about the two hammer elites, silly me since I do enjoy running a hammer in most places in PvE. I said Eviscerate is the best warrior elite since it's the easiest to put a deep wound with and a bunch of damage, it's also a powerful spike as well which makes it even better in PvP.

Batou of Nine · Aug 03, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

@ the build.

It is ok, an average PvE build that could potentually hold its own. I do not think it would excel in any fashon tho. Its DPS is rather scant, and spike ability near void. Self survival/party buffs through WY! is generic and just fine.

The reason this build fails @ DPS is its inability to maintain. Soldier's Strike as being an energy skill is already a no-no for a warrior unless that warrior is utlizing any form of energy management. Without such, this build would be able to use it 2 or 3 times along with Charge before they are tapped out and have to wait for their 2 pip regen to catch up. Waiting kills DPS. You would need to include a zealous weapon for sure if you wanted to keep your build as is.

The reason this build fails @ spike potential is the lack of dmg followup to the deepwound application. Assuming that you still actually have energy enough to use Soldier's Strike during a fight, that would essentually be the only form of followup damage. Already we see the failure in comparison to the basic Eviscerate + Exec Strike combo, which has two large damage hits plus the DW. This combo now only used 2 skills to spike, and can only get more powerful with additional damage skills. Dismember + Soldier's includes only one damage bonus, with a very slight bonus from Agonizing, not comparable or successful in terms of spike.

Here is the changes i would make to your build (still in the spirit of leaving Eviscerate out of the picture)::
[skill]Charging Strike[/skill][skill]Dismember[/skill][skill]Agonizing Chop[/skill][skill]Executioner's Strike[/skill][skill]Flail[/skill][skill]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill][skill]Healing Signet[/skill] **Generic Res** -OR- (whatever else)

Optional Elites: [skill]"Charge!"[/skill][skill]Triple Chop[/skill][skill]Auspicious Parry[/skill][skill]Decapitate[/skill]

Elite choices i left open for environmental changes, Auspicious vs physical foe heavy areas, Triple Chop to deliver moderate AoE dmg and faster adrenaline gain, Charging Strike for mobility along with damage which also takes the place of your cancel stance, etc etc...

i hope that helps a bit.

@ Pericles

You need to realize that when you rebuttle to people's critiques you need to at least have a basic understanding of what you are talking about. Racthoh even pointed out specifics on some of the very naive and/or counter-intelligent things you have said...

First point: you say that in your opinion Dismember is greater then Eviscerate solely on the fact that it is a bit less adrenaline and not an elite. Well Eviscerate is an elite for a reason, deep wound plus armor ignoring damage in one skill is superior in all regards to a spammable deep wound, no matter if we are talking PvE or even PvP. In both regards deepwound being a condition is easily removable, therefore Eviscerate follows the idea that you want to apply as MUCH damage as possible as quick as possible as deepwound is triggered. That is why it is such a well synergized skill.

Secondly, your overall understanding of warriors is very scewed. Several things bring up red flags for most, saying warriors aren't known for damage dealing EVEN though you say your *spike* or *dps* is better then an Eviscerate build (if you don't get it, both those aspects are all about DAMAGE dealing), counter-manding your own advice like not needing a cancel stance despite it being included in the build, saying that warriors are often the first to die, saying *yourself* that you don't know what type of armor warriors wear, rebuttling by saying that Eviscerate isn't even a descent elite, convinced your build has higher DPS then an Eviscerate build, and on and on, as i could point out so many more red flags...

This is why you are being met with a little hostility and little support. You argue nonsense and seem to smugly demand that your build is superior when you clearly do not have the experience to claim such facts... In the LEAST you could have been humble and asked what you should improve or even more suggestions on non-Eviscerate axe builds.

Now if i had seen your build without clueless comparisons to Eviscerate or smug demands of greatness, most folks would have approached the build with an objective mind in terms of offering suggestions for your non-Eviscerate build. But it is hard for people to remain objective when they are met with such stubborn refusal to listen to experience and facts.

I am just trying to help, do not take this is a scolding, but take it as positive criticism. I hope you can see what i mean, and don't get to upset. If i came off as some mean, arrogant troll, i'm sorry.

cheers.

Gagonaka · Aug 03, 2007, 09:39 AM // 09:39

eviscerate is a great spike, a foe at 80% health, use eviscerate, then agonizing, then exec, then critical chop will kill most 60AL foes including human players at 80% health.

The only time i have used Charge is during a pvp match where you want everyone to have better chance at kiting foes, in Pve i use it to run people from beacons to Droks.