Curse

Terek Zelta · Mar 08, 2010, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Everyone's right in this thread.

I could be wrong, but that's probably why all the builds and ideas mentioned here are metas.

Warriors can get insane AoE with the right support. Without support, it really varies. Because of their adjacent range and how difficult it is to get and keep enemies around or in front of you, and the total lack of support people tend to give us when we're in groups, sometimes it's better to trash those healers and elementalists one at a time, as efficiently as possible.

I tend to pug a lot. When the enemies are so scattered, it's usually best to kill one quickly rather than kill two slowly just so they can be healed or protted by their backline, or one can run away, or any number of things that could happen.

A lot of the time I need to be totally self-sufficient in the group barring heals and prots, and for that, I generally go single target and let everyone fend for themselves. There's no denying how fast HM explodes with Hundred Blades and a proper AP MoP nuker, though. What's that? It's raining Charr guts? Oh yes.

_Nihilist_ · Mar 08, 2010, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

...Because of their adjacent range and how difficult it is to get and keep enemies around or in front of you...

Try going Warrior/Elementalist and bringing Grasping Earth on your skillbar. Even @ 3 Earth Magic (which is what you can invest after maxing out your Weapon Mastery and Strength) it lasts 10sec with a 12sec recharge. You'd be amazed at how efficient taking this one skill is at keeping enemies close.

Terek Zelta · Mar 08, 2010, 03:08 PM // 15:08

You'd be amazed at how you only snare 2 enemies at most because of its nearby range, and how fast that 10 seconds is up, and how you need to sacrifice a utility or attack, all of which are more important to warriors, just to have it.

Grasping Earth is better on paper than it is in practice. Warrior bars are so cramped as it is, it shouldn't be any wonder as to why most warriors don't run it.

There's nothing you can do with Grasping Earth that you can't do with proper technique and what minimal aggro control we're given, but in order to do any of it, your group needs a certain level of coordination, which most groups don't have in my experience.

_Nihilist_ · Mar 08, 2010, 09:20 PM // 21:20

How many enemies you snare depends on how good you are at the "proper technique" that you referenced. If you fire off Grasping Earth while you have 1 enemy in nearby range, it's not the skill's fault, it's yours for not having better battlefield awareness.

Swordsmanship: 12+1+1
Strength: 12+1
Earth Magic: 3

"For Great Justice!"
Grasping Earth
Enraging Charge
Flail
Dragon Slash
"Save Yourselves!"
Sun and Moon Slash
Whirlwind Attack

Axe Mastery: 12+1+1
Strength: 12+1
Earth Magic: 3

Warrior's Endurance
Grasping Earth
Frenzy
Rush
"Save Yourselves!"
Power Attack
Cyclone Axe
Whirlwind Attack

Have fun. Swap out whatever you want, I don't care, they are generic bars. Grasping Earth fits with both of them, it's not an inconveniece or a hindrance on either build, both of which mow through mobs easily.

Jeydra · Mar 09, 2010, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Its more like comparing doing X damage to one target or .15X damage to multiple targets. Unless you can regularly hit 5-6 mobs with your AoE, you are going to be doing more DPS on single targets than on AoE. More DPS is going to kill a group faster than less DPS.

WTS lessons on how to aggro properly 10k.
Message me on my IGN.

I find it depressing that some people call me retarded for arguing that Warriors overpowered when they don't know something as basic as how to aggro properly - and their primary profession is freaking Warrior.

maxxfury · Mar 09, 2010, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

WTS lessons on how to aggro properly 10k.
Message me on my IGN.

I find it depressing that some people call me retarded for arguing that Warriors overpowered when they don't know something as basic as how to aggro properly - and their primary profession is freaking Warrior.

Proper agro is a lost art amongst the discord generation, sadly you would be surprised how many people have never heard of a corner pull let alone done one, or even have the skill/technique of how to quickly 'ball up' a hand full of enemies into adjacent range to ghost them efficiently..

Tho you cant blame them all, been brought up on disco and uber tanks to do the dirty work for them, why should they bother to learn the old school techniques to get better when they dont need to now?

Learning to agro REALLY improves real play efficiency. And helps stop you been bad. Some people could do with coughing up the 10k i think :P

Terek Zelta · Mar 09, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Nihilist_

How many enemies you snare depends on how good you are at the "proper technique" that you referenced. If you fire off Grasping Earth while you have 1 enemy in nearby range, it's not the skill's fault, it's yours for not having better battlefield awareness.

When you're playing with a sin who shadowsteps into the enemy line before you can get in there, or another warrior who's right next to you, it gets a lot more complicated.

It's difficult to snare anything when your team is right next to you as you engage the enemies.

So no, you're wrong.

The 1 second casting time of Grasping Earth allows for enemies to roll right past you in HM and out of nearby range, and if you've got them body blocked, there's no reason to use it when you can just knock them on their butts.

It's dependent more on team coordination than individual technique for me.

_Nihilist_ · Mar 09, 2010, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

When you're playing with a sin who shadowsteps into the enemy line before you can get in there, or another warrior who's right next to you, it gets a lot more complicated.

It's difficult to snare anything when your team is right next to you as you engage the enemies.

So no, you're wrong...

...It's dependent more on team coordination than individual technique for me.

If you aren't communicating with your team, then you need to either a) get better @ communication or b) find a new team if they still decide to Leeroy. Your personal communications skills can be seen as an area in which you still need to learn "proper technique".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

The 1 second casting time of Grasping Earth allows for enemies to roll right past you in HM and out of nearby range, and if you've got them body blocked, there's no reason to use it when you can just knock them on their butts.

This mentality is nothing more than a roadblock that you are putting up in front of yourself. Learn how and when to use your skills and you won't have a problem landing them on your target(s).

Terek Zelta · Mar 09, 2010, 11:59 PM // 23:59

You might want to tone down the elitism, you're trying way too hard and being unnecessarily confrontational.

At any rate, it has nothing to do with any of that. It's really simple.

Grasping Earth does not bring enemies to you. It snares them, but nothing is stopping them from continuing on and smacking your backline. They just get there a second or two slower. Unless they're body blocked, which I can just put them on the ground in that case, still making it moot.

And that's if you're linebacking. I generally kill the casters first, and they don't kite unless my group is packing Savannah Heat, which never happens, again, making it moot.

When I compare this to another utility like Enraging Charge, SY or FGJ, I can't justify taking it when it's just not needed most of the time.

If it works for you, great. I don't find a need for it. I could use Grasping Earth on that Jade Brotherhood Knight, or I could activate Enraged Smash, reset his aggro, and then kill him.

It's got nothing to do with communication. I play with people who are islands.

At any rate, my original point was also simple and you seemed to completely miss it: Enemies are all over the place in HM, especially when you're in a random group. Grasping Earth doesn't solve that issue.

If Elementalist A is standing 10 feet away from Elementalist B, Grasping Earth won't help there. I find it best to KD-lock and take out Elementalist A and then move onto Elementalist B.

Do you get what I'm saying?

Chthon · Mar 10, 2010, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

Grasping Earth does not bring enemies to you. It snares them, but nothing is stopping them from continuing on and smacking your backline. They just get there a second or two slower.

This is your core misunderstanding. The monsters' target-selection AI cares about the relative speed difference between the monster and each potential target. For the same reasons that a monster will give up on chasing you if you have a significant IMS boost (as every runner knows), it will give up charging your backline if it has a significant IMS penalty and you offer a close-by stationary target. So, yes, a snare can bring the monsters to you.

On the topic of snares. If you have a free PvE slot (anywhere on your team), Tryptophan Signet at high rank is pretty darned nice. As is Fevered Dreams+YMLAD. Grasping Earth is not my number one choice if I want to be snaring things.

Also, I think I should mention that snares are only one of several ways to induce the monster AI to bunch up for you.

LunchboxOctober · Mar 10, 2010, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cthlon

The only reason not to use this build is if you've got a guaranteed GDW that makes Earthshaker unnecessary.

20-40% chance of single target kd (unless using an aoe attack) vs a guaranteed aoe kd? And Earthshaker loses? I'm sorry dude, if you're using your Warrior and the geography of an area properly ES will out perform GDW. You can even be a jerk and bring Earthbind, the AI wouldn't care.

Now I'm sure some one is going to make some sort of comment about using a Warrior properly or something about geography, so I'll be brief - your party stays out of earshot of you while you place the mob on a corner, stairway, or any random wall not allowing the melee or whatever frontline past you, moving around to avoid any aoe from casters. Then support characters, like a minion master of spirit spammer come in behind you and create a wall of low hp creatures that the ai loves to target, resulting in the casters advancing to the frontlines and either running into your warrior, minions, or spirits. Then you can ES the mob, go single target dps the caster with whatever build you got running, doesn't matter. Sometimes stragglers get past your wall, or break through it, but usually by then your party has dispatched the main sources of damage, disruption, and and or healing in the mob.

Grasping Earth also is the worst snare in HM. Foes there already move faster than normal the way the ai decides if it should attack or ignore a foe is based on how fast the foe is moving. If you use a skill that gives you a 50% boost in speed over foes they will completely ignore you and are less likely to chase above 33%, however in HM grasping earth only slows them down to about 20%-30% slower than standard movement speed, which tbh, isn't that great. Since it's below 33% mark foes will chase targets and won't break aggro of them unless forced (i.e., kd'd). The only way it will see a benefit is if the party or players in it use speedboosts, which are rarely seen on back and midline chars (besides cons).

And if you're using cons to make a skill like Grasping Earth effective then it's a waste of money. A Mirror of Ice ele with DF is much more effective, imo.

Chthon · Mar 10, 2010, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by LunchboxOctober

20-40% chance of single target kd (unless using an aoe attack) vs a guaranteed aoe kd? And Earthshaker loses?

1. 38-40%. It's not at all unreasonable to expect people to at least reach rank 9 deldimor if they're remotely serious.

2. A build with a free elite slot should be able to fire off two WW's in the time it takes for Earthshaker to be charged and used once. (The obvious example is Dragon Slash + WW.) The odds of knocking down any given foe in two WW's is 64%. Considering the significant DPS increase from actually hitting these foes, that could be a worthwhile trade.

3. GDW does not go on only you. The caster can maintain 3.33... copies of GDW across the team. Assume those other 2.33... copies are also going on someone with AoE ability -- a Barrager, a dervish, another WW guy -- and you're looking at pretty much a constant knocklock on everything. Two people each doing two WW have an 87% chance of KD on each foe. Three have a 95% chance. Or, if the foes are more spread out, multiple people capable of KD can spread out too and maintain a decent chance of KD on ALL the foes.

Terek Zelta · Mar 10, 2010, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

This is your core misunderstanding. The monsters' target-selection AI cares about the relative speed difference between the monster and each potential target. For the same reasons that a monster will give up on chasing you if you have a significant IMS boost (as every runner knows), it will give up charging your backline if it has a significant IMS penalty and you offer a close-by stationary target. So, yes, a snare can bring the monsters to you.

Try it in HM and watch as Grasping Earth slows a couple enemies down to normal walking speed, or close enough to it, and one trots right past you because your "snare" didn't even snare them, one doesn't get snared at all, and one is body blocked, which you could've done anyway.

HM movement speed boost is pretty hefty, and something we need to consider.

Part of it is my fault, though, for not explaining myself properly.

There's a difference between not knowing how to use a tool, and recognizing when that tool isn't ideal, or even useless. You guys have to stop trying to assert yourselves over other people. No one's saying you're wrong or stupid, we just have varying opinions. These discussions are largely subjective.

Oh. I see Lunchbox said it. Hehe.

Edit: Had to reword some things to make it clearer.

Chthon · Mar 13, 2010, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

There's a difference between not knowing how to use a tool, and recognizing when that tool isn't ideal, or even useless. You guys have to stop trying to assert yourselves over other people. No one's saying you're wrong or stupid, we just have varying opinions. These discussions are largely subjective.

No, it's not subjective. Either it works or it doesn't. There's no room for reasonable disagreement about a binary question. Nihilist's point, which I agree with, is that you must not know how to use it properly if you cannot get it to work.

For the record, I generally do not use Grasping Earth on my warrior bars. I tend to handle aggro through positioning instead. Nonetheless, I recognize that it is absolutely true that a snare can do what Nihilist says it can.

Reverend Dr · Mar 15, 2010, 01:35 AM // 01:35

5 years later, people are still trying to play GW like EQ or WoW. Man all MMORPG's are exactly the same.

Really PvE is easy. If you have to stop to "set up" (sic: waste time) for a "proper aggro pull" rather than just c-spacing and rolling over PvE with very little if any coordination between people or ultra optimized builds, then something is terribly wrong.

Jeydra · Mar 15, 2010, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Prove that you can do that in a tough area ... then come back here and post.

Bobby2 · Mar 15, 2010, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Define 'tough'.

Jeydra · Mar 15, 2010, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Try Borguus Blisterbark's group without aggro techniques.

PS: Proper aggro techniques take a long time ... not. It just takes practice and skill and concentration. In fact these days I can usually pull off good aggro taking maybe 3-4 seconds longer than if I'd just charged straight to the next group. Against the tougher groups, any decrease in time here is more than compensated for by avoiding AoE, deaths, possible wipes and (especially if yours is a Warrior primary) being able to use AoE more effectively. Just look at Life Bringing's run through Ooze Pit.

Tenebrae · Mar 15, 2010, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

.
There's a difference between not knowing how to use a tool, and recognizing when that tool isn't ideal, or even useless. You guys have to stop trying to assert yourselves over other people. No one's saying you're wrong or stupid, we just have varying opinions. These discussions are largely subjective.

You are telling that to someone that thinks builds with 90% efficiency instead of 100% are BS. Its the PvP lame Rank elitism taken to PvE , sad and funny to see, dont bother with those anymore , its pointless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

5 years later, people are still trying to play GW like EQ or WoW. Man all MMORPG's are exactly the same.

Uh ... no.
Theres a great diff while talking about W and holding agro between games that have "taunt" skills and those who dont. If you dont know it , you just played about ..... 2 - 3 MMORPGs ? about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Really PvE is easy. If you have to stop to "set up" (sic: waste time) for a "proper aggro pull" rather than just c-spacing and rolling over PvE with very little if any coordination between people or ultra optimized builds, then something is terribly wrong.

Yes because everything is black or white and all builds and tactics work the same in 100% of the areas and all kind of missions.

/sarcasm

Reverend Dr · Mar 15, 2010, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Goon Squad reppin with zero PvE skill bro!

Anyone else want to try to call me out?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Uh ... no.
Theres a great diff while talking about W and holding agro between games that have "taunt" skills and those who dont. If you dont know it , you just played about ..... 2 - 3 MMORPGs ? about that.

Okay you then:

The taunt skills in those games are the how aggro is controlled, they are not the why aggro is controlled. In those games it is no exaggeration that casters have less than half the hp of the warriors and take ten to twenty times the amount of damage. This is just not the case in GW as there is not nearly that amount of difference between warrior armor and caster armor. Though if your warrior is bringing the wonderful PvE skill SY, then the warrior is now the softest target in the group, still no reason to tank.

EDIT: The big difference here is a philosophical mindset. PvE is going from Point A to Point B and mobs are some of the things that are in the way. Any way you look at it you have to kill the mobs. Any other way you look at it you have to walk through and past the places where mobs are. So by going to where mobs are, pulling, and waiting for them to come to you, then the time it takes for the mobs to come to you is being wasted. I want you to seriously think about this, making them come to you is always going to take longer than just going to them. (this is of course assuming you will succeed, if pulling or tanking is the only way to succeed, then it is the only way to succeed).