Curse

Steps_Descending · Jan 16, 2011, 03:22 AM // 03:22

I'm thinking about making a radically different character from my 2 mains (Me/Rt) and I'm looking at War or Axe-Derv (somehow, for now I'm interested in axe, potentially hammer).

Some thing to note, I went throught the game already, I am not looking for optimal builds or going throught as fast as possible. This is a casual character more than an elite char. I'm curious if I'm missing something critical.

I hesitate between the 2 primary, what am I missing with derv? I can see the AL, but is 30AL it critical considereing I have heart prayer + a backline + insignas?

I can see strength, but I really doubt it would make that much difference in term of damage.

I can see Adren, but is it that much of a problem to loose strength based adren skills?

And I can see secoundary, but I can't think of a really good sec for war (other than /N for farming).

On the derv side, derv would give me a caster backbone should I need to cast insteat of hit, and with the derv update coming eventually so I might like that derv then...

Rites · Jan 16, 2011, 04:23 AM // 04:23

a warrior's Strength attribute = armor penetration, not that important to most peeps (hell i never notice it)

but the advantage with a scythe is that it can hit up to 2 (or was it 3?) opponents adjacent to your target, i'm not sure how important this is to you, but to some this is actually quite important. top that with the fact that scythes have the highest melee damage in game

i dunno, personally i would stick with a scythe for a derv, but thats me

Green Sscythe · Jan 16, 2011, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Warriors really are only good for the nostalgic sense that old GW players get from them and Adrenaline Builds. Dervs on the other hand can hit multiple people at once and can use a host of over powered PvE skills. Go Derv

reaper with no name · Jan 16, 2011, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Warriors receive axe mastery runes, increasing their damage. They also have strength (which not only provides armor penetration on attack skills but also has a lot of good skills linked to it) and more armor. Furthermore, warriors have better IAS options (such as Flail).

Dervishes have nothing going for them with regards to the axes except more energy and higher energy regeneration. Neither of these things significantly help, since if you use an energy-heavy build the dervish won't have enough energy anyway without Zealous Vow, and warriors can just use Warrior's Endurance.

pomagranite · Jan 16, 2011, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Warriors receive axe mastery runes, increasing their damage. They also have strength (which not only provides armor penetration on attack skills but also has a lot of good skills linked to it) and more armor. Furthermore, warriors have better IAS options (such as Flail).

Dervishes have nothing going for them with regards to the axes except more energy and higher energy regeneration. Neither of these things significantly help, since if you use an energy-heavy build the dervish won't have enough energy anyway without Zealous Vow, and warriors can just use Warrior's Endurance.

Disagree on superior IAS completely. also think that axe synergizes fine with dervish seeing as their are dervish melee skills that are not scythe specific and you'll have the ability to boon yourself for more melee damage. not to mention if you're using an IAS zealous mod will easily take care of your energy management issues along with other energy boosting dervish skills. I would advise the author of this post to regard his statement as pure opinion because none of it factually applies. make a decision best for you and dont let others dissuade you

pomagranite · Jan 16, 2011, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Dervish + Sephis Axe = Win

Saru The Boss · Jan 16, 2011, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

but the advantage with a scythe is that it can hit up to 2 (or was it 3?) opponents adjacent to your target

it's 3

On topic,
As far a a scythe's damage output goes:
Assassin>warrior>dervish.

Any of the three with AoHM will deal plenty of dage

Deadly addiction · Jan 16, 2011, 08:17 AM // 08:17

You can play Warrior's Endurance scythe and do more damage than a dervish with a scythe (because of Strength). The only thing you're gonna miss is the avatar forms and, personally, it's not such a big loss (mysticism isn't great atm). Warriors have a lot more play options (axe, hammers, swords and scythe), a number of team builds need them (such as FoW sc) and, overall, are less boring than dervishes (3 times I made a dervish, and 3 times I deleted it because I wasn't using it for anything other than storage).

Oh, there's also the upcoming dervish update... Whenever that's gonna be.

P.S. Did I mention how much I love Hundred Blades + Whirlwind Attack + Mark of Pain? It is amazing for anywhere in PvE, not just speed clears.

Gill Halendt · Jan 16, 2011, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by pomagranite

Disagree on superior IAS completely.

Wait... What?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pomagranite

also think that axe synergizes fine with dervish seeing as their are dervish melee skills that are not scythe specific and you'll have the ability to boon yourself for more melee damage.

Still, you'll need to spec into both Scythe Mastery and Axe Mastery to use them together, which is hardly optimal.

Ben-A-BoO · Jan 16, 2011, 11:10 AM // 11:10

It seems like you lean towards Dervish, since you posed your question that way.
The other question would be: "What do I get for being Dervish?"
Which is basically less than what you get from being Warrior primary, at the moment (Note: There is a Dervish update announced; without estimated time of arrival).

Warriors are more versatile, durable and have the higher damage output. Might not make that huge of a difference if you just do PvE Normal Mode.

Whatever your choice is: Enjoy!

Moonstalker · Jan 16, 2011, 12:26 PM // 12:26

You could always put all your faith in Dervish and hope that the update comes sometime soon, and will make the buff worth the making of the Dervish :P

Haggis of Doom · Jan 16, 2011, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Unless the update changes anything drastic regarding this, there is no reason you should go with the Derv to wield an axe. Unless you're going after looks, in which case no one can tell you which you will prefer.

Anyhow, here's a breakdown for things as they are now:

Warrior:
Runes
Strength skills (including one of the best axe-swinging elites, Warrior's Endurance, and all your good cancel stances for Frenzy; this means IAS is better on the warrior, too. Also, Power Attack is win in a build that can afford it)
Strength AP bonus on attack skills (quite insignificant, but better than Mysticism)
Better shield efficiency (attribute-wise)
Freedom with secondary (ever wanted to cap an elite for the sake of capping it? Also, pets)
Armor
Better for hammer builds too, for the same reasons (+ Stonefist insignia! And Enraging Charge is pretty good on hammer builds)
People won't go all "wtf axe derv" on you

Derv
More energy regen should you need to go caster (why would you? For places you can't reach with melee, just go with spear/bow)
You seem to like the Derv more
People will go all "wow an axe derv" on you (sometimes...)

IMO

If you're not interested in the scythe, no reason to go Derv over Warrior efficiency-wise.

FoxBat · Jan 16, 2011, 05:08 PM // 17:08

If something sick happens with the avatars in the update, it might become worthwhile. Axe has a 4s AoE attack, cheap deep wound options, and doesn't kill SY adrenaline like yeti smash spam would. It's basically the best warrior weapon when your elite is tied up somewhere else. (as ascendancy of WE-axe over sword/hammer shows) It's an open question whether that would really be any better than scythe, but given terrible axe elites, there is the possibility of out-axing warriors in certain situations depending on the upcoming avatar effects.

Steps_Descending · Jan 16, 2011, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Unless the update changes anything drastic regarding this, there is no reason you should go with the Derv to wield an axe. Unless you're going after looks, in which case no one can tell you which you will prefer.

Anyhow, here's a breakdown for things as they are now:

Warrior:
Runes
Better shield efficiency (attribute-wise)
Armor
People won't go all "wtf axe derv" on you

I don't expect to make dervs powerful, but I think thye will at least make them interesting to play. Noticed how most interesting class got a "mini-game" aspect to them? Mes have reflexes, Necro have SR/minions managing, Rit have kinda spirit placement (the most interesting part is gone though), Derv should have enchant juggling (not that they really made it well).

"wtf axe derv" is part of the fun.

Anywya, didn't think about runes and sheild. Would the +2+1 from runes make a big difference, anyone have calculations for that? going to wiki...
[edit :] After checking wiki, I'd gain +2 dmg on average from +3 runes (+2+1) and what seem to be on average +5 from attack skill... Not much... but it would add up.[/edit]

Carrying tactic will be a burden for sure. Actually just that might tip the scale.

[edit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben-A-BoO

It seems like you lean towards Dervish, since you posed your question that way.
The other question would be: "What do I get for being Dervish?"
Which is basically less than what you get from being Warrior primary, at the moment (Note: There is a Dervish update announced; without estimated time of arrival).

Warriors are more versatile, durable and have the higher damage output. Might not make that huge of a difference if you just do PvE Normal Mode.

Whatever your choice is: Enjoy!

I seem to lean to derv because I have bad experience with warrior and energy in some place, but that' sprobably more playstyle. It's really less, but somehow I feel more confident with some kind of fragile gimmick like axe/off-hand (seriously) derv. Or if all else fails, dragon slash/SY!
ANd I'm sure I'll spend a while in HM whenever I can!

NerfHerder · Jan 16, 2011, 06:07 PM // 18:07

In my own testing, a ZV Derv is on pretty even ground with a WE Warrior with a scythe in regards to DPS. I actually give the edge to the Derv for the superior energy management. The Derv can also easily add conviction +24AR and 50% block. So I still give the edge to the Dervish. However, the fact that the Assassin blows the doors off both with a scythe makes the sin the clear victor.

If you want to use a Hammer, Warriors do it best due to Stonefist insignia and Strength skills like Dwaven Battle Stance. Warriors also have more builds they can use more effectively giving them more variation in what they can do. The AP from Strength really starts to show in high damage attack skills, like those in Strength and Axe Mastery.

ATM, the Derv has one good build that the Assassin can do better. The Derv is still a good choice, its just that both Warriors and Assassins are better. We can only wait to see if the Dervish update will change things. If they are anything like the Mesmer or Rt changes, then it may be worth making one. But for now, the Warrior is a very solid choice if your looking at making a new toon.

reaper with no name · Jan 16, 2011, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

In my own testing, a ZV Derv is on pretty even ground with a WE Warrior with a scythe in regards to DPS. I actually give the edge to the Derv for the superior energy management. The Derv can also easily add conviction +24AR and 50% block. So I still give the edge to the Dervish. However, the fact that the Assassin blows the doors off both with a scythe makes the sin the clear victor.

If you want to use a Hammer, Warriors do it best due to Stonefist insignia and Strength skills like Dwaven Battle Stance. Warriors also have more builds they can use more effectively giving them more variation in what they can do. The AP from Strength really starts to show in high damage attack skills, like those in Strength and Axe Mastery.

ATM, the Derv has one good build that the Assassin can do better. The Derv is still a good choice, its just that both Warriors and Assassins are better. We can only wait to see if the Dervish update will change things. If they are anything like the Mesmer or Rt changes, then it may be worth making one. But for now, the Warrior is a very solid choice if your looking at making a new toon.

Well, my math says it's a 10% difference in damage.

Anything beyond what WE can give is meaningless for energy management. For the purposes of scythe builds, Zealous Vow is effectively equal to Warrior's Endurance, since the additional energy it gives is worthless (ie, you already have all the energy you need; so why would you need any more?).

Warriors can add Conviction just as easily as dervishes can. All they have to do is take one point out of strength and forego IAS. If Dervishes do that, it makes attack skills even more of a factor in the overall damage output, making warriors come out even further ahead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pomagranite

Disagree on superior IAS completely. also think that axe synergizes fine with dervish seeing as their are dervish melee skills that are not scythe specific and you'll have the ability to boon yourself for more melee damage. not to mention if you're using an IAS zealous mod will easily take care of your energy management issues along with other energy boosting dervish skills. I would advise the author of this post to regard his statement as pure opinion because none of it factually applies. make a decision best for you and dont let others dissuade you

I applaud your trolling.

Also, the OP said he was looking primarily at axes (and to a lesser degree hammers). We're just going to confuse him with all this talk of scythe builds.

Haggis of Doom · Jan 16, 2011, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

The AP from Strength really starts to show in high damage attack skills, like those in Strength and Axe Mastery.

+ damage in attack skills are armor-ignoring, so technically AP doesn't add more damage with Power Attack than with Disrupting Chop. AP shows the best on crits, so it's much more significant on scythe wars, as scythe crits are nothing to scoff at. It does add up with AScan for extra spikiness, however; more damage is never bad

Back on topic:

Sins and Rangers both are better than Dervs at running an axe build, so if you have one of those, maybe make a Derv and throw an axe on the Sin/Ranger?

In any case, PvE is easy, so if you don't have trouble with content on your Mesmer, I would think you shouldn't have trouble with an efficient axe Derv build either. Just don't expect it to outperform an axe Warrior ^^

I guess my point here is, if you know your game mechanics, your axe Derv will perform better than the average clueless Derv running Avatar of Balthazar, so unless you have unreasonable expectations (such as beating an axe Warrior), there's not much harm in it.

LifeInfusion · Jan 16, 2011, 08:36 PM // 20:36

For a second there I thought someone was bumping a thread from 3 years ago. There's no reason to run an axe on a Dervish. Avatars really aren't that great, they don't beat out an IAS, Enraging charge, power attack, better armor level, stonefist insignias...

Bandwagon · Jan 17, 2011, 12:00 AM // 00:00

To the OP: If you want to run Axe or Hammer (you seem to show interest in these two), and you want to run them effectively, go Warrior and never look back. Warriors use these weapons more effectively then Dervishes, and at the moment, use scythes just as, if not more effectively then a dervish. Warriors also have superior IAS options to dervishes

proof of said options:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/IAS

IAS are important components of physicals because they greatly improve your adrenal and attack rate.

example: 33% increased attack speed translates to 50% more attacks being dealt over the same amount of time, which translates to 50% more adrenaline and 50% more weapon strikes that deal damage to your target (and with a good hero set up, extra attacks are welcome since heroes can buff you up with +damage bonuses).

If you have your hopes up for the derv update, and you only have 1 character slot, its your call because you have about as much information as everyone else (besides the tight lipped Test Krewe).

There is no real wrong choice here, since physicals literally own the damage department of GW, if your min/maxing though, go warrior.

PS: Warriors don't really need a secondary unless they are running the secondaries' weapons (obviously). Most warrior skills concentrate on dealing melee damage and improving attack rate / adrenaline rate which is exactly what the warrior wants and needs to smash face.

Steps_Descending · Jan 17, 2011, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Thks to all who answered, in the end I started a derv earlier for the heck of it. I decided to give a axe derv with possibly either half a sheild or just a straight caster off=hand. I'll see how that works. I'll check either an avatar, Onslaugth or an elite like Triple Strike (the last one should give nice AoE with wirlwind attack/axe, I hope.)
I'll see if I have the patience to do something with that char. The first 5 lvl will be painful.