Curse

frojack · Nov 14, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

I understand your concerns. Better than you may think as I used to share your views. However, after using Channeling offensively in Pvp for some time now, I have come to understand why it is as it should be. The last round of buffs is more or less all that is required. A few things need tweaking here an there (Lamentation, Signet of Spirits, Wailing Weapon, Spirit Siphon) but that's about it. Channeling may suffer inferiority to Air Spikers (undoubtably as I play both. I know for a fact it does) but that's the way it 'should' be.

Spiking is just one set-up of many which the Ritualist can use for combat. When used together, these forms of attack and defence can be quite devastating. Fair enough, spirit damage is rather problematic since they don't follow targets (this seriously needs addressing) but it certainly isn't forgettable either. Then there's interruption. Warmongers Weapon now makes any confrontation with an enemy caster an interesting experience. Combining all these abilities makes the Ritualist very strong. Strong enough to justify a weaker Spiking ability than that of an Elementalist.

The mobility thing is the 'rub' as it were. However, mastering the Ritualist really boils down to making the enemy move how you want them to. Force them to come to you (control their movements) and you have won half the battle. How you do that... Well. I haven't mastered the class either

.

Note: One thing I always try to remind myself of is this; Enemy spell casters need to be well in range of my 'artillery' before I can be the target of spells...

unmatchedfury · Nov 15, 2006, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

I understand your concerns. Better than you may think as I used to share your views. However, after using Channeling offensively in Pvp for some time now, I have come to understand why it is as it should be. The last round of buffs is more or less all that is required. A few things need tweaking here an there (Lamentation, Signet of Spirits, Wailing Weapon, Spirit Siphon) but that's about it. Channeling may suffer inferiority to Air Spikers (undoubtably as I play both. I know for a fact it does) but that's the way it 'should' be.

Spiking is just one set-up of many which the Ritualist can use for combat. When used together, these forms of attack and defence can be quite devastating. Fair enough, spirit damage is rather problematic since they don't follow targets (this seriously needs addressing) but it certainly isn't forgettable either. Then there's interruption. Warmongers Weapon now makes any confrontation with an enemy caster an interesting experience. Combining all these abilities makes the Ritualist very strong. Strong enough to justify a weaker Spiking ability than that of an Elementalist.

The mobility thing is the 'rub' as it were. However, mastering the Ritualist really boils down to making the enemy move how you want them to. Force them to come to you (control their movements) and you have won half the battle. How you do that... Well. I haven't mastered the class either

.

Note: One thing I always try to remind myself of is this; Enemy spell casters need to be well in range of my 'artillery' before I can be the target of spells...

OKay the problem i have with the way my favorite class has developed is not what they can do, they can do almost anythign another class does, but the problem is that they can't really do offense+ defense(unless its the stationary offense of attackign spirits) It can heal and dmg. What i would really liek is for the rit to have conection enough between its attributes so that it can d oboth well. right now it can't.

The only thing the rit does is copycat other classes, doing what they do, except not as well. The ritulist is(and i feel comfortable saying this) the worst class in the game right now, If it weren't for AwS the ritulist would be completly dead as a class in any way.

I'm going to have to switch to warrior, just because thats a class that will never get slam nerfed and seems to be the rock of PvP and PvE.

erock · Nov 15, 2006, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

What i would really liek is for the rit to have conection enough between its attributes so that it can d oboth well. right now it can't.

i find that there's quite a bit of productive cross-connective synergy between abilities. i mean, for example, the build i'm working with right now is primarily communing with a minor in channeling. start off with Anguished was Lingwah as i move to a mob area, Channeled Strike while i hold the ashes (making use of the bonus for holding an item, then i drop it giving me a spirit artillery support right off the break, following up with bloodsong and shadowsong generally, then stuff like Gaze From Beyond, or Doom (if i'm using more Bindings i've seen Doom easily break 100 dmg a shot with a decent recharge time and cost...and i only have my channeling at 9)...anyways, i'm rambling...my point is there's lots of connectivity, skills that play off using skills from other attributes...though generally through the use of spirits, that being the Rt's primary focus generally. I do have problems, like everyone else, with mobility and casting time though but against a tough group a ritualist can really destroy the opposition

FoxBat · Nov 16, 2006, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by unmatchedfury

OKay the problem i have with the way my favorite class has developed is not what they can do, they can do almost anythign another class does, but the problem is that they can't really do offense+ defense(unless its the stationary offense of attackign spirits)

Yeah, any Rit build without spirits sure is garunteed to be sub-optimal. You (or someone on your team) absolutely must be using those slow, anchoring, pain-in-the-arse spirits, or you might as well get another class to do whatever job better.

Investing in both restoration and channeling is a crapshoot, but there's damage/life-healing in spawning power/communing so you can play the dual role. Which you'll have likely invested in anyway if you're, you know, using spirits.

Xeupo · Nov 18, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Thank you for your view, frojack.

As you can most likely tell, I do not pvp much with rits despite them being my favorite class. I need to start experimenting more to see what potential the class can have in "strange" skill set ups. One problem, as other rit players have come across, is often your attributes are so widely distributed that is is difficult to effectively utilize each.

Often one thing or another is far too weak to be helpful or damage dealing.

Weapon spell based rits look promising with nightfall skills. It would be purely a supportive role, however.

Hella Good · Nov 19, 2006, 07:01 AM // 07:01

PvP is unwelcoming to Rits, despite the sometims seen eccentric builds. Me are too dangerous with SPain and Unnatural. Interrupts and KD are frequent. Spirits are easily targeted and destroyed. PvE is good though. But buffs to Rits are definitely needed.

Akane · Nov 23, 2006, 01:27 AM // 01:27

someone previously posted that Rts are the most versatile class, on par with rangers.

this is far from true!! The reasons rangers are awesome
1. expertise can affect many skills
2. expertise skill line is phenominal
3. mid armor lvl

The reason Rts have a hard time
1. spawning power? i don't know how this works, but my spirits having +++health doesn't do much for me. they still expire a certain time
2. holding an item, weapon bonuses out the window.
3. caaaaaaassssssssttttttttttting time. they should make allow +faster cast rate and spell recharge to work with rituals

Khaunshar · Nov 23, 2006, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Spawning Power itself doesnt effect too many things, but it has several very strong and versatile skills that really need 14+ in it to be effective.

Also, expertise is all good and well, but having only 12 in an attribute line, even fueled by expertise, isnt going to cut it. A Ranger is as versatile with secondary classes as a Necromancer with 1 less energy reg.

IMO the Ritualist has more potential due to one thing: you usually dont need more than 1 attribute at 12 to make an effective build, as you pretty much have a full healer in the restoration line, a full nuker in channeling etc.
THAT is what makes them versatile, and you cant match 16 channeling with 16 expertise+12 channeling, simply cause energy-managment, which is all expertise offers, doesnt matter enough to outweigh 4 more attribute points.

unmatchedfury · Nov 24, 2006, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khaunshar

Spawning Power itself doesnt effect too many things, but it has several very strong and versatile skills that really need 14+ in it to be effective.

Also, expertise is all good and well, but having only 12 in an attribute line, even fueled by expertise, isnt going to cut it. A Ranger is as versatile with secondary classes as a Necromancer with 1 less energy reg.

IMO the Ritualist has more potential due to one thing: you usually dont need more than 1 attribute at 12 to make an effective build, as you pretty much have a full healer in the restoration line, a full nuker in channeling etc.
THAT is what makes them versatile, and you cant match 16 channeling with 16 expertise+12 channeling, simply cause energy-managment, which is all expertise offers, doesnt matter enough to outweigh 4 more attribute points.

the reason rits don't have too much versitility is that there skills all have little backgruond requirements like near a spirit, under the effects of item of weapon spell. spirit requirements are bad because monk dont have to stop every 30-45 seconds and make the party vulnerable. 3 seconds in a battle is a long time. also spirits have a huge energy cost at times, making them take you out of busness once every half a minute. item spells are jsut as bad. taking away 15 energy is rediculous. unfortuantly thats how it works and having 0 energy for 3-4 seconds can be pretty bad in a heated fight.

Rits can be very good with other rits because of how their prerequisites for spells become a given. all rits teams are great in the dfense department. and pretty good at pressure, although lacking at spikes. rits are unfortuantly designed to suck if not near spirits. so that means they can't move well and are easily counterable.

escoffier · Nov 26, 2006, 08:17 AM // 08:17

rits are a great class but as said by others in this thread their use is not understood by most even alot of users of this class.and again speed is not always their strong suit,but when given time a spirits based rit(damage and prot)can be invaluable in a high difficulty situations.

Made In Ascalon · Nov 26, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akane

someone previously posted that Rts are the most versatile class, on par with rangers.

this is far from true!! The reasons rangers are awesome
1. expertise can affect many skills
2. expertise skill line is phenominal
3. mid armor lvl

The reason Rts have a hard time
1. spawning power? i don't know how this works, but my spirits having +++health doesn't do much for me. they still expire a certain time
2. holding an item, weapon bonuses out the window.
3. caaaaaaassssssssttttttttttting time. they should make allow +faster cast rate and spell recharge to work with rituals

Rangers are better than ritualists at using communing. It's kind of sad, but it's true. The builds with rangers using Dissonance/dissenchantment/bloodsong/etc are awesome because expertise shaves off so much of the energy. Combining that with Oath Shot means that you no longer are completely useless if you get one or two of your spirits interrupted. Combine that with whirling defense, and you're set.

Khaunshar · Nov 27, 2006, 01:50 AM // 01:50

that may be somewhat true for defensive spirits, but offensive spirits with 12 communing instead of 15 or 16 last noticably shorter, AND do less damage. I tried both versions, and vastly prefer the Ritualist version, as I am usually not short on energy, stand back far enough not to catch interrupts, and more damage on spirits just matters a lot more than less energy once in 2 minutes.

But I guess that also depends on the rest of your teams build.

FeuerFrei [exil] · Nov 27, 2006, 09:51 AM // 09:51

In order to save the rit

and change the "slow only used build " spirit bomber/spammer,... Arenet must change the rit primary attribute !! and make it global to all skill (rest, chan,...) like other prof !!

Ideas :
- fast reload to rit only skill
- add heal bonus (like divine favor)
- add armor penetration to chan skill (a % each point,...)
- etc.

Jezza · Nov 27, 2006, 02:07 PM // 14:07

So many people say "they just don't know how to use the Rit". I say, "show people how to use a Rit then".

Speaking from a GvG point of view, there is a reason why the top teams do not run Rits, because they have not found any use for them that cannot be done by other classes in a better way.

Calen The Civl · Nov 27, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

I have to agree that the Rit is unwieldy at times. My main character is a Rit. Spirits are all but unusable in PvE pugs because of their mobility issues and slow casting times. Overall, I just fill any niche a team needs- through limited tanking (119 armor excluding a shield is nice despite being conditional), limited nuking, support, etc.

I rather dislike PvP but have had some fun in RA backing other teams in the corner using spirits.

I have to agree, however, that ritualists tend to be a lackluster class in many regards. Since the game seems to be pushing toward melee rits (which are decent although they are lacking in damage) perhaps Anet should allow rits to be inherently faster attacking than warriors to allow the damage to be more even.

Overall, the interdependence on item spells, spirits, etc is interesting but also impractical in many regards with its current implementation. The ritualist often requires 15 or 16 in one area to be adequately effective; however, because of the interconnection, on the skills often a ritualist needs 3 attributes to take full advantage of their abilities.

Patccmoi · Nov 27, 2006, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Imo Rts are not nearly as lacking as people make them out to be. Problem is mostly that no one tries much to use Rts and make use of their strong points.

Imo their strongest point IS their versatility in ONE build. Maybe you can argue that pure Resto is a poor monk, that pure Channeling is a poor Ele (btw i don't agree), but there is something those classes can't do and is be both at once.

Here's an example of a build we use in GvG:

Rt/X

15 Channeling
14 Restoration

Caretaker's Charge (emanagement, light nuke, light self heal)
Channeled Strike
Gaze from Beyond
Warmonger's Weapon (could be replaced depending on what you do, but this is imo the strongest utility Rts can bring to the table that no other class can)
Life (party support heal)
Mend Body and Soul (solid direct heal, if there's other spirits condition control)
Generous was Tsungrai (strong self-heal)
Flesh of my Flesh

This Rt can put 40 DPS of nuking when using his skills on recharge without running into emanagement trouble. He can do Warmonger's on a warrior to give him extreme interrupt ability. Life is a good party heal and an extra spirit (we use a second Rt along that has Pain-Blood-Shadow). MB&S is a nice heal that you can use to help saving someone low, etc. GwT allows you to safely use 2 major runes and use your hard rez without any risk since you self-heal to full right after by dropping it.

It's extremely strong to go handle gank in GvG with his ability to heal NPCs and nuke gankers from afar with non-LoS spells. If they jump on you, you have such huge self-healing ability that usually 1-2 gankers can't actually take you down. I soloed YAAhoos with this and they simply have to run from you once they've taken enough nukes in the face as you heal through all they do.

You can assist spike for 250 with Channeled-Gaze (ofc this can be reduced by armor, but even on 100AL it's still 125, and LOrb-LStrike assist from an ele doesn't do more). You can buff a warrior with arguably the best buff available in the game for a melee class (imo it is). There is a LOT you can do with that, and it's all energy efficient overall, the only costy spell being Warmonger but it's still pretty easily manageable with Caretaker's spam.

And note that the build is very mobile overall and even with no spirits at all a majority of your skills are still very good.

Imo, being hybrid is the strength of the class atm. Defensive spirits are simply inferior to Paragon defense so there's no point at all using them. Offensive Spirits are nice, and they go very well along with Channeling or Restoration. Note that Offensive spirit DO NOT need any point in spawning power. If people target them, Spawning Power will at best give them 1-2 more second of life. If they don't target them, Spawning Power does nothing. So honestly i just stopped using any kind of Spawning Power now unless i need a spell in there. I stopped using AwS and switched for Channeling emanagement most of the time (Essence Strike is awesome for a Communing/Channeling mix for example) since there's more useful spells in there than in Spawning. Weapon of Quickening is my usual elite for Communing/Channeling mix since it lowers Essence Strike to 6s recharge which turns it into a very good emanagement that also helps on damage. An example of Channeling/Communing build:

13-15 Channeling
14 Communing
3 Spawning

Weapon of Quickening
Essence Strike
Gaze from Beyond
Wielder's Strike / Warmonger's Weapon / Gaze of Fury
Pain
Bloodsong
Shadowsong
Rez Signet

You can buff other casters in your team with WoQ too which is a very good buff for some classes, emanagement is fine with Essence spam, your spirits recharge fast enough in case they die and you can nuke decently from range. Again it's a good mix of ally buffs, pressure damage and even some defense (Shadowsong spam blinds and people can't go as deep in your backline when there's spirits there).

Imo it's not really the skills that need an update (though some are definitely horrible, but hell all classes have a majority of horrible skills), more the way Ritualists are played. Simple spirit spamming builds doesn't cut it anymore and destroy your mobility. Simple nuking lacks utility. Resto healing isn't as mobile as a monk and at least in GvG that's a big drawback. Taking advantage of the hybrid aspect of the class is really the best you can do atm imo.

Cebe · Nov 27, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Weapon of Quickening
Essence Strike
Gaze from Beyond
Wielder's Strike / Warmonger's Weapon / Gaze of Fury
Pain
Bloodsong
Shadowsong
Rez Signet

*cough* [skill]Restoration[/skill] *cough*

...if not the spread a little Naomei around or use FoMF! C'mon...Rez Signet? At least Rits have reusable resurrects!

Patccmoi · Nov 27, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

We use it in GvG, and i'd much rather get that monk back up now than running over his corpse hoping to get a spirit on his back in 5s and then maybe managing to destroy it without being interrupted.

-malachi- · Nov 27, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

rits can't pvp? O.o

I just did a 2v1, and I am a restoration rit

unmatchedfury · Nov 28, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeuerFrei [exil]

In order to save the rit

and change the "slow only used build " spirit bomber/spammer,... Arenet must change the rit primary attribute !! and make it global to all skill (rest, chan,...) like other prof !!

Ideas :
- fast reload to rit only skill
- add heal bonus (like divine favor)
- add armor penetration to chan skill (a % each point,...)
- etc.

wouldn't work. The problem is that would only affect the ritulists abilities.
Spawning ideally is fine. The problem is that guild wars. despite being team based has very little summon spell besides the necromancers. so +64% to hp doesn't really help much. However something like +64% to dmg and Hp of summoned creatures(including pets ) would be great and help rits find a class specialty of their own. The only thing that all rits really do right now is have 75% of their elites be energy management.

and of course stationary offense.