Curse

AuraofMana · Dec 02, 2006, 03:58 PM // 15:58

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anyone that plays echo+meteor shower, or plays ele and pings for blood rit, or runs 16 energy storage

The Deep Chain Echo Nukers, but then you have a BiP nec.. and truth, if anyone brings 16 ENERGY STORAGE needs to uninstall -.-
I never got the point of Ele pinging for BR either.. they have like at least a good 60~70 Energy... -.-

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SS in my opinion is a more versatile, less reliant hex.

SS is complete crap compared to MoP and SV these days.... you act like as if SS doesn't scatter enemies, and your enemies will be always hitting your tank, and your team will get spiked.
I don't care how good your monk is, but when your backline is getting spiked, there's no way you can save everyone for level 28 monsters without some energy assistance. And we are talking about a 5 man group, 1 monk has to take care of 4 other people, as opposed to PUG 8 people party with 2 monks.

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I've recently change from SS to a permanent SV build becoz it's
1. faster in recharge
2. lower casting cost
3. triggers with anything that they doas long as the enemy's health is higher than yours
4. lowers the enemy's health very fast to then be finished off just by pounding away.

Seconded, but I miss my SS =/

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BR is used 99% of the time to cover up poor gameplay style, to make bad Ele's and Monks look better. That's why necro's don't like running it, plain and simple. It makes ME responsible for YOUR actions, and there are alternatives.

Same thing can be said about Rez Signet and I am sure most of you would rather bring something else if you know your team can make it, but then again shit happens, that's why we consider the worst possible scenario and bring BR.

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If I join a normal PUG and they ask for BR, I get a badddd feeling.

I would too, but PUG Monks are rare -.-

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I just said that it's stupid not to have energy management.
Which it is.

It is always stupid for anyone not to bring energy management unless you are a Warrior (don't even say Balthazar's Spirit).
But I don't want to waste 10 mins to get the party together, make people ping skill bar, pay 1k, get in, and get owned after the first mob because the Monk thought spamming Orison of Healing even if anyone took 1 damage is a sure way to save everyone.

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You could choose better skills. Ele's are NOT required to take the 8 skills with the biggest numbers on them. Try understanding the gameplay dynamics, I know, that's crazy talk.

Meteor Shower + Echo + Arcane Echo = 3 ?
But Fire Ele is so boring... but you can't beat Meteor Shower =/

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Its no good casting SS on a group of warriors

IDK why would you ever cast SS on Warriors... last thing I need is for them to scatter and kill the monk(s).

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I decent 55monk doesnt need BR!

SS/SV Nuker in the old 2man UW did NOT need that many skills... thus, why not bring BR to speed the energy process up? Shit happens with some random 55s you meet and they would run out of energy because they are tanking 1 enemy.
SS + A. Echo + Reckless Haste (it works with competent 55s and speeds up the process a whole lot) + SV + Defile Enchantment.... I even use Rez Signet in case something wrong happens.

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BR is used 99% of the time to cover up poor gameplay style

So is Rez.

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because SS<Decent Warrior

Truth.

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How could that compete with a group of 6 warriors, and SS on 3 of them. youve obviously never played an SS, or you have, just very very wrongly.

You are the one playing wrongly, scattering warriors all over the place with SS.

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For some random mission, if a team is good you'll wind up playing MM

Playing MM with a bad PUG makes it a good PUG, unless your monk decides that you can take care of yourself when getting spiked and you already ate all your minions so you would stay alive - and then your team dies, and blames it on you for "can't keep minions alive noob mm".
At those times you just let the minions run wild and kill the group.

Phoenix Sebolta · Dec 03, 2006, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Warriors DO NOT scatter, if the casters remain out of range! Dont tell me otherwise because ive been playing SS in FoW a lot recently. The only time they scatter, or dont get aggroed on the tank is when the ele trys to get in first, or gets too close to the tank and they lose aggro. It is meteor shower that makes enemies scatter as it is an area effect spell, ie it stays in that area! SS is ana area effect, but it is a hex which follows you arround!!

Ive 2 manned FoW with a 55monk and a SS, and when we do it right, the enemies dont scatter.

jesh · Dec 04, 2006, 09:58 AM // 09:58

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Originally Posted by AuraofMana

It is always stupid for anyone not to bring energy management unless you are a Warrior (don't even say Balthazar's Spirit).
But I don't want to waste 10 mins to get the party together, make people ping skill bar, pay 1k, get in, and get owned after the first mob because the Monk thought spamming Orison of Healing even if anyone took 1 damage is a sure way to save everyone.

Meteor Shower + Echo + Arcane Echo = 3 ?
But Fire Ele is so boring... but you can't beat Meteor Shower =/

Searing Flames does so easily, and so does Sandstorm. I have no idea why you quoted me on energy management, but ok.
You raise an interesting point about BR having the same use as a Res Sig, but I have to point out to you - the difference is probably taking two of these types of skills. (To make up for your team's inadequacies) I would take either/or, if my group really wanted BR that bad, and I didn't want to run it.

By the way, Energy Storage with no skills in it has pretty much no function, it's just a buffer to make you think you can be more lenient on your energy usage. Just because you start off with 70+ energy doesn't mean that you can't blow through it, which an elementalist EASILY can.
Oh, and it really makes my panda sad that you think Meteor Shower is good.

squan · Dec 04, 2006, 12:57 PM // 12:57

a) if i go with my ss necro i allways go with br. why, because i do not know if my party is good enough. When i go with guild/alliance i dont take br because i trust my team and know they got energy management. btw if you do fow a necro shoud allways bring

Revealed Hex - Spell
Remove a Hex from target ally and gain 3-13 Energy. For 20 seconds, Revealed Hex is replaced with the Hex removed from target ally.
you know how many foes cast SS and mark of pain so you get it.

b) ele should have energy management. you are a noob if you got to fow without management. it makes the run slower because in fact a SS necro is a full damage dealer and not a support player. btw my oppionion of tripple nukers is that it is so bad. 3 times nukes is 3 times 25 energy and 3 times exhaustion. ok there are ways to do something about it, but it costs skill slots and you only got 8

Monks who need br have to practice a bit more. there are so many cheap skills that can heal a lot.
Bonders also not need br. 2 mesmer skills and you got all the energy management that you need.

Revealed Hex - Spell
Remove a Hex from target ally and gain 3-13 Energy. For 20 seconds, Revealed Hex is replaced with the Hex removed from target ally.

free hex removal

and

Ether Signet - Signet
If you have less than 5-9 Energy, gain 10-18 Energy.

to me its just logic but i wish others would also have some logic.

Rin · Dec 04, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Meteor Shower sucks anyways.

Any ele asking for BR needs to be kicked far far away from any PUG.

You got Glyph of Lesser Energy, Ether Prodigy, Dual Attunements (elemental attune + fire/water/air/earth attunement), not to mention you can branch to /Me for energy tap, and interrupt skills that give you energy.....

Only monks should be asking for BR.

Phoenix Sebolta · Dec 04, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Thank you squan. That has been my point. An SS necro is a full damage dealer!

NOT a support player. I will bring BR if the team asks me to, doesnt mean ill spend a lot of time casting it on them though. Ill do it if i really dont have anything else to do. And believe me, that isnt very often.

Sophitia Leafblade · Dec 04, 2006, 04:59 PM // 16:59

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Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Warriors should be the main damage dealers. And I can't think of that many skills that are crucial for an ss necro that they can't sacrifice something for their monks.

If any ele asks for a BR he should be kicked.

lmol have u ever heard of tactics? u know free up the eles elites so they can take more damaging skills unstead of having to use an Elite energy management.

Agreed necros can norm find a slot to find Br in. As for the 1st line haha i dont think ive laughed that hard for months, thanks

aubee · Dec 04, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

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Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

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Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter
Warriors should be the main damage dealers. And I can't think of that many skills that are crucial for an ss necro that they can't sacrifice something for their monks.

If any ele asks for a BR he should be kicked.

lmol have u ever heard of tactics? u know free up the eles elites so they can take more damaging skills unstead of having to use an Elite energy management.

Agreed necros can norm find a slot to find Br in. As for the 1st line haha i dont think ive laughed that hard for months, thanks

Unfortunately prior to NF, most ele elites pretty much sucked for damage dealing. The good ones were mainly for...guess what?...energy management which is what an ele usually should use his elite slot for. With Nightfall, there are some decent damage dealing elite AoE spells like Searing Flames and Sandstorm. But a SF nuker should easily be able to manage his own energy with Glowing Gaze (which also does damage) and fire attunement. Likewise an earth elementalist using Sandstorm could (although I haven't personally tried this as my ele hasn't capped sandstorm yet) use ebon hawk, glowstone, and earth attunement for energy management. No reason to need BR from the necro.

Not to mention that skill for skill, considering energy requirements, cast time, recharge time, and armor ignoring damage, necros can easily outdamage elementalists as nukers in practically any reasonably normal situation anyway. Maybe the necros should be asking the eles to bring BR to support them for maximum team efficiency.

One last thing on SS...I haven't been in FoW since the AI updates, so I can't speak for there, but as far as the endgame of NF goes SS still works like a champ. I went SS with my necro through the whole realm of torment with no problems. SS still does massive damage if used properly. This was with a guildie playing a dervish and both of us using heroes (and sometimes a hench or two.) One key thing is to always have the best frontline you can. I've never gone anywhere in NF without a MM. Either playing one myself (in early game) or using a MM hero in later stages. The minions do a wonderful job of keeping enemies out of the backline. And as long as that happens, you can still do a huge amount of damage with SS. Plus, you need the great frontline to protect your healers anyway.

Carinae · Dec 04, 2006, 10:26 PM // 22:26

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Originally Posted by AuraofMana

So is Rez.

People learn from dying. People DON'T learn if someone else is a crutch to lean on....because nothing bad happened. Someone else picked up your slack.

PUGs = Bad

PUGs + BR requests = Disaster Looming

Cathode_Reborn · Dec 05, 2006, 01:09 AM // 01:09

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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

People learn from dying. People DON'T learn if someone else is a crutch to lean on....because nothing bad happened. Someone else picked up your slack.

PUGs = Bad

PUGs + BR requests = Disaster Looming

lol, how exacly does that work out? A monk in a Pug asks for br and it means increased chances of failure? Really doesn't make sense. Br is there to avoid a possible wipe. The monk asks for br in case the worst happens. A monk does not control the other party members, obviously. How do you know he didn't ask for br in fear of what the other party members might do? Everyone should know what I'm talking about - the random afk's with no warning, rushers, casters who attempt to tank, etc....all the idiots that would force the monk to drain his energy nearly down to nothin cause they just won't get a clue. Now what if the monk didn't ask for br but knew that he'd possibly might need it, then halfway into a mission at a bad time, he asks for br outta nowhere cause all the sudden the whole party decided to get wreckless, but you didn't have it equipped.......but, if the monk asked for br before starting the mission, you assume that something more horrible is likely to happen cause he's supposedly inexperienced, right?

Btw, since when do people learn from dying? There's plenty of people who'll die many times and still just don't know what's going on.

Mesmer in Need · Dec 05, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

people dont learn from dieing. when i play as my monk, i never ask for br. and i really hate it when an ele starts to tank while the war goes off argoing everybody else for the ele to tank (lol). but i feel like i have to heal them, or ele everyone will think im a bad monk.

AuraofMana · Dec 05, 2006, 03:33 AM // 03:33

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An SS necro is a full damage dealer!

For the last time - NO. If you are running any full damage dealers, unless in some very special case in PvP, you are just plain noob.
And I doubt you know what a full damage dealer means:
All damage, no rez, no heal, nothing.

Meteor Shower does suck in terms of damage, the knockdown is the fun part.
I just like to see people getting pummeled by rocks from the sky =D

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ele should have energy management. you are a noob if you got to fow without management. it makes the run slower because in fact a SS necro is a full damage dealer and not a support player

IDK why the hell you need so many FULL TIME damage dealers. Seriously, people have 3 maned FOW and you got a freaking 5man SF team + Nuker running here.

And if I am running an Ele, I would rather take an elite damaging skill instead of some energy management. Yes, Ele drains the energy pool fast, but he still ends up having more energy. That's why people bring BR, IDK why it would be a waste in the first place as you run Awaken the Blood anyway.
It's faster to BR the ele and move out instead of SSing everything you see. It doesn't take that much to cast 2~3 SS on a group of monsters and throw in a curse or two and interrupt. It's not like you are the monk with a full time heal job due to spikes - you are making it sound as if SS is always busy.
Oh noez... I gotta use Power Spike like once.... gonna take all game anticipating for it, so don't bother me cause I am busy hovering my finger over Power Spike!!11

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Only monks should be asking for BR.

They are saying over here that NO ONE SHOULD EVER ASK BR. IDK what is wrong with them. I don't care if you have energy management, you are going to run out some time, and hell, playing a monk in elite places are hard. When a spike is going on, you won't last long.

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Not to mention that skill for skill, considering energy requirements, cast time, recharge time, and armor ignoring damage, necros can easily outdamage elementalists as nukers in practically any reasonably normal situation anyway. Maybe the necros should be asking the eles to bring BR to support them for maximum team efficiency

IDK why you need a nuker for FOW in the first place.

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Ether Signet - Signet
If you have less than 5-9 Energy, gain 10-18 Energy.

Ether Signet is about the worst skill there is - recharge is incrediably long. So hard to just ask a Necro to bring BR because you know, a monk's skill isn't as important as a SS's. Who cares if everyone dies, that's not my problem. The point here is to kill, kill, and kill, and if that means we have to die along, that's ok, because you know, SS is always busy.

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One last thing on SS...I haven't been in FoW since the AI updates, so I can't speak for there, but as far as the endgame of NF goes SS still works like a champ. I went SS with my necro through the whole realm of torment with no problems. SS still does massive damage if used properly. This was with a guildie playing a dervish and both of us using heroes (and sometimes a hench or two.) One key thing is to always have the best frontline you can. I've never gone anywhere in NF without a MM. Either playing one myself (in early game) or using a MM hero in later stages. The minions do a wonderful job of keeping enemies out of the backline. And as long as that happens, you can still do a huge amount of damage with SS. Plus, you need the great frontline to protect your healers anyway.

SS will scatter aggro when more than 3 people are affected by it, but in mishs monsters are usually scattered already.
For FOW, it is the same thing except less serious. But get 3~6 warriors charging at your tanks, a few SS's, and you got scattered warriors going for your monks and you.

Hella Good · Dec 05, 2006, 04:06 AM // 04:06

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Sebolta

If you only use arcane echo and Spiteful Spirit, and moreover you think I do the same, not only are you a noob, youve not read the whole of this thread. Of course you need more than echo/SS thats been discussed in this thread.

Mark of Pain only works if the tank attacks the enemy with MoP on it. And lest we forget, he can only attack one enemy at a time (discounting triple shop, cyclone axe, hundred blades etc). MoP works for physical damage only. Thats bows and melee. How could that compete with a group of 6 warriors, and SS on 3 of them. youve obviously never played an SS, or you have, just very very wrongly.

*rolls eyes in a big wide cirle*

Which part about the Minions did you miss? Surprise! Minions do physical damage...

As for SS requiring more than 2 slots... what's the next thing that you gonna tell me? That an MM requires more than 2 slots? Namely Fiends and BoTM? What do I know... I've only played a Necro in PvE and PvP extensively since GW came out and through 3 chapters now. I'm clearly clueless.

jesh · Dec 05, 2006, 09:22 AM // 09:22

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Originally Posted by AuraofMana

For the last time - NO. If you are running any full damage dealers, unless in some very special case in PvP, you are just plain noob.
And I doubt you know what a full damage dealer means:
All damage, no rez, no heal, nothing.

Ether Signet is about the worst skill there is - recharge is incrediably long. So hard to just ask a Necro to bring BR because you know, a monk's skill isn't as important as a SS's. Who cares if everyone dies, that's not my problem. The point here is to kill, kill, and kill, and if that means we have to die along, that's ok, because you know, SS is always busy.

I *always* run my warrior as full damage. I do carry a res, as any player should, period.
Ether Signet is great on a monk, combined with Mantra of Inscriptions and Signet of Devotion/Rejuvination.

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Originally Posted by squan

Monks who need br have to practice a bit more. there are so many cheap skills that can heal a lot.
Bonders also not need br. 2 mesmer skills and you got all the energy management that you need.

The two skills you need from mesmer are Mantra of Inscriptions and .. well that's it. Blessed Signet covers you fine.

A lot of times when I monk, I end up being the only one. There's been dozens of times that a BR from a ranger or something has saved our team from a nice spread of DP. If you're in a bad group, you will get into situations where you need more than your energy management and weapon swapping can provide. In these cases BR is great. On an SS necro? Well. Whatever. Your call. It is a crutch for most players, as Carinae Dragonblood so aptly put it.

Cebe · Dec 05, 2006, 12:15 PM // 12:15

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Originally Posted by aubee

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Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

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Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Warriors should be the main damage dealers. And I can't think of that many skills that are crucial for an ss necro that they can't sacrifice something for their monks.

If any ele asks for a BR he should be kicked.

lmol have u ever heard of tactics? u know free up the eles elites so they can take more damaging skills unstead of having to use an Elite energy management.

Agreed necros can norm find a slot to find Br in. As for the 1st line haha i dont think ive laughed that hard for months, thanks Unfortunately prior to NF, most ele elites pretty much sucked for damage dealing. The good ones were mainly for...guess what?...energy management which is what an ele usually should use his elite slot for. With Nightfall, there are some decent damage dealing elite AoE spells like Searing Flames and Sandstorm.

Well...no and sort-of-no. I wouldn't consider it 'tactics' for the ele to expect Blood Ritual. As I have said before I can manage my energy perfectly without an energy storage elite...even before Nightfall was released. Elemental Attunement I find pretty useful with some air builds I run but I've not used an e-storage elite in months. Fire/Water/Air/Earth Attunement + Glyph of Lesser Energy and your'e good to go. I have so much fun taking an elite other than an E-Storage one. I keep meaning to test out Ether Prism though so see how well it works but first impressions are it doesn't look good.

Invoke Lightning ftw!

Phoenix Sebolta · Dec 05, 2006, 01:03 PM // 13:03

Theres another point i was going to make but i thought id get laughed at. Someones already said it though. An SS can deal much more damage than an ele!!! so why should the best damage dealer have to make up for a less efficient one.

To answer the point once again about bloody Mark of Pain...YES i said before im sure it does do a hell of a lot of damage when theres other means of physical damage, but in a 5 man FoW theres only a warrior. That was my point. Hard to Coordinate.

Hella Good · Dec 05, 2006, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Several things: 1) didn't know this somehow became a discussion about 5 man FoW... 2) if an Ele needs BR, you need another Ele... 3) if a Monk asks for BR, you do have the room on your skill bar, and you can afford to bring it; it's a good emergency thing and emergencies do happen.

aubee · Dec 05, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Sebolta

Theres another point i was going to make but i thought id get laughed at. Someones already said it though. An SS can deal much more damage than an ele!!! so why should the best damage dealer have to make up for a less efficient one.

To answer the point once again about bloody Mark of Pain...YES i said before im sure it does do a hell of a lot of damage when theres other means of physical damage, but in a 5 man FoW theres only a warrior. That was my point. Hard to Coordinate.

Probably a bit off topic here, but what is the makeup of a typical 5 man FoW team?

Phoenix Sebolta · Dec 05, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

The reason we got talking about 5 man FoW is because that was the broad context i was basing my argument against SS necromancers bringing Blood Ritual. Therefore 5 man FoW is highly significant.

A 5 man Fissure of Woe party consists usually of:

Warrior - Tank
Elementalist - Echo Nuker
Necromancer - SS
Monk - Healer
Monk - Bonder

The tank must be built to take a lot of damage and keep himself alive. Its no good putting 16 in swords or axe and going in with a bunch of attack skills. W/R with Melandrus Resiliance or W/Mo with Vig Spirit and Healing Hands work well for tanking. Also, stances to reduce the times you get it, and armor buffs. He must also be good at grouping enemies nicely so the damage dealers can kill them quicker.

The ele should have Meteor Shower and a skill to repeat it, Arcane Echo, Glyph of Renewal or Echo (elite mesmer skill) are examples. Other high damage skills and spikes are needed, such as rodgorts invocation, mark of rodgort, fireball etc. [ele is the only char here i dont have, so if ive said noob skills, i apologise]. He should bring some for of energy management, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Elemental Attunement and Fire Attunement are favourites.

The SS necro should obviously bring Spiteful Spirit and Arcane Echo. With 16 in Curses, it is advisable therefore to bring other powerful hexes as you see fit. My SS build has already been pretty much picked apart in this thread. See above.

The healing monk should basically be able to heal. In my opinion the best way of doing this is 5 energy quick cast/recharge spike heals. Word of Healing [E] and Dwayna's Kiss work wonders here. Come up with your own healing build of course.

The bonder needs Life Bond and Life Barrier [E] and blessed signet to maintain the bonds. He maintain these two enchantments on each party member throughout the run. The rest of his skill slots are pretty much open. Mantra of Inscriptions, a mesmer skill, speeds up the recharge of signets so blessed signet will give you more energy over time. Essence Bond is a good one to cast on the tank, you gain one energy when he his hit.

The monks at least should bring a continuous res, but in my opinion all party members should carry a res skill, even if its only res sig.

This is of course only one way of doing it. Im sure there are countless other ways but this is probably the most tried and tested method. Barragers go here now, as well as 8 man parties. A 55monk and SS could even solo this place. These are the kind of parties i am most accustomed to going with though.

Hope this helps

jesh · Dec 05, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

You can still make use of MoP with a "tank" warrior.

13 Strength
9+ Tactics
8-10 Curses
Rest in sword mastery

Mark of Pain
Flurry/Flail
Sun and Moon
Dolyak Signet
Watch Yourself!
Defy Pain
Res
Healing Signet/Lion's Comfort

If your monks can't keep him alive with double bonds, ffs, then you know there's something wrong.
I really don't like running builds like this, because your damage is just so hampered.
I really think you could mow down mobs faster with a physical team than this SS/Meteor BS. 3 rangers and a warrior with MoP.. let's see, if they take Dual Shot and Forked Arrow under IAS, and all fire off at the same time as the warrior calls and starts attacking with his own IAS.. you're looking at at least 14 activations of MoP in less than a 3 second time window. 14*30 = 420 armor ignoring dmg. MoP is definitely one of the most powerful hexes in the game. If the warrior has some adrenaline, things get even crazier.

One idea that I've been mulling over recently, is having a team with a necro at 16 curses, Awaken the Blood, and Archane Echo, or possibly Glyph of Renewal or Echo (whatever gives it the most spammability). Just ditch SS and put Mark of Pain on multiple targets. Why? Well, make sure the 3 rangers with an IAS also have barrage. Or you could just use dervishes with Twin Moon Sweep, though that wouldn't be as large of an area. Freakin 92 damage for 1 set of attacks! Yes, I'll take that, ty. 3 barrages = 276 damage, in the first second of battle. (3 rangers) 3 barrages each = 828 damage. SS cannot touch this with a mile long pole. I'm not sure if Forked Arrow and Dual Shot would help in this scenerio or not. Yes, MoP causes flee. So pin those mofos down, or just activate it enough times it doesn't matter. You could make one of the rangers a R/D with Barrage and Harrier's Grasp.