Curse

Jeff Highwind · Sep 14, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

omg, All the time and effort I took to making my Rit Lord pimped out with 15k black dyed kurzicks and now he got hit with the nerf bat.

I can see it still being playable, but this is just terrible.

Moiax · Sep 14, 2006, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Yes it is possible, but it requires some skill and thought, as it should, as opposed to just mashing the buttons keyed to the spirits. I don't really have any problems with that.

XvArchonvX · Sep 14, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

After trying out my rit lord a bit this morning, I did notice that the rit lord build does still work, but it does get harder and harder to maintain energy with each cycle of spirits. As long as you watch your spirits and give little breaks between casting, you should be fine. Pain is a good idea for the build. I was using Feast of Souls, but I think I'll drop it for Pain next time I go to use the build.

As a side note I'm happy to see that the normal spirits (shelter, union, etc..) all look like Destruction in appearance now.

Jeff Highwind · Sep 14, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Well if rits use mesmer as their secondary, can you use skills to help with energy management?

ss1986v2 · Sep 14, 2006, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Pain is a good idea for the build. I was using Feast of Souls, but I think I'll drop it for Pain next time I go to use the build.

im glad someone else sees the benefit of running pain. not only is it a net gain of 5 eng each time that you cast it, it also can be a decent dmg dealer since the update. plus with 15 in spawning, its recharged in 12 seconds. 5 net engergy every 12 seconds if needed aint to shabby for a skill that is supposed to be geared to offense.

trankle · Sep 14, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

My alter ego posted this on another board. I was experimenting with new options:

"OK, I just played a little with Assassin's Promise. It works, happily, but it's more work.

Assassin's Promise. 5e, 3/4 sec, 45 sec. "For 5...13 seconds, if target foe dies, you gain 5...17 Energy, and all your skills are recharged."

With Deadly Arts at 10, you get a 12 second duration, and 15 energy (for net 10). AP has a recharge of 45 seconds, but if it works, it recharges itself instantly as well.

Combined with Boon of Creation, energy seems to be OK with this, and recharges shouldn't be an issue, for the most part.

The disadvantages are that you can't stay way behind the party and watch the action with your binoculars. This means you may become targetted and lead enemies back to your spirits if you're not careful. You also have to watch the state of your enemies, so you can find the best target. And hex removal would mess you up, of course.

Oh, and your party has to, like, kill stuff.

On the plus side, it's alot more fun and challenging than the Rit Lord method, and you can still keep your spirits up most of the time.

I'm primarily a PvE player, so this may not work at all in PvP."

Anyone else try something like this?

Dodo The Extinct · Sep 15, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Thats an interesting stratagy for PvE. Kudos for thinking outside the box.

Maybe the Assassins Promise Build could work in a Hex Spike.

unmatchedfury · Sep 15, 2006, 01:44 AM // 01:44

well pain has always been used as my E-manegment. the main problem is that shelter's death comes much much faster now. one good metor will elimiate you shelter at full health essentially shelter can proc 8-9 times now before dieing.

ss1986v2 · Sep 15, 2006, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by unmatchedfury

well pain has always been used as my E-manegment. the main problem is that shelter's death comes much much faster now. one good metor will elimiate you shelter at full health essentially shelter can proc 8-9 times now before dieing.

yes shelter does die faster now but not as drasticly faster as some are thinking. ill explain:

At 15 Spawning and 16 Communing (what i run), shelter is a lvl 8 spirit that takes 43 dmg each time it protects. before the update, shelter would take 28 dmg each time it protects. to calculate the health of the spirit, we use the formula:

(50 + (Spirit Level * 20)) * (1 + Spawning Power * .04) (guildwiki is your friend :P)

and we get that shelter has 336 hp. before the update, shelter would protect exactly 12 times before it died, now it will protect 7.8 times or 8 times before it dies.

only 4 fewer protections, and when you look at it, of the three key spirits, shelter almost always is the one that survives the longest. by the time you start the chain again, union and displace are usually already dead, but shelter is still alive and well, barring the barrage shadow bows in fow or stupid people standing in a meteor shower for the whole duration.

so if you think about it, the protection has just been balanced to last about as long as union and displacement do.

rit lords: balanced, not nerfed to death yet...

unmatchedfury · Sep 15, 2006, 11:33 AM // 11:33

i would consider it nerfed to death.. WE arn't as good as monks at protection any more. So why bother bringing us along now. we serve no purpose. we're like a sucky monk. and no one belives channeling can do dmg. (altho echo spirits rift now is godly belive me) sigh, oh well.

ss1986v2 · Sep 15, 2006, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by unmatchedfury

i would consider it nerfed to death.. WE arn't as good as monks at protection any more. So why bother bringing us along now. we serve no purpose. we're like a sucky monk.

id argue that about rits not being good at protection. the rit spirits are rly the ultimate as far as protection. yes, a monk can protect one person better than a rit, but we offer global protection to the entire team. just look at the skills:

shelter = global prot spirit
union = global shielding hands
displace = suped-up aegis

no matter how good the monk, he cant keep ps, shielding hands, and aegis up on every single member of the team for even a fraction of the time a rit can. it doesnt matter if its not as good as before, it is still a wonderful form of protection.

and arguing that the rit protection doesnt last as long as a monks when looking at just one ally, remember that the effects from spirits cant be removed (shattered, stripped, well of prophane, OoA) nor can they be taken advantage of with certain skills (desecrated enchant ftl).

Jetdoc · Sep 15, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

not only is it a net gain of 5 eng each time that you cast it.

It's only a ONE energy net gain when you cast it. 5 energy to cast, 6 energy received from Boon of Creation.

I still like the concept of it being a "free" spirit that does decent damage, but I still think the slot is better suited for an energy management skill.

ss1986v2 · Sep 15, 2006, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

It's only a ONE energy net gain when you cast it. 5 energy to cast, 6 energy received from Boon of Creation.

again, you are forgetting to factor in casting time to the equation, as i have alrdy explained before. during that 3 second cast while you are doing nothing but waiting for it to finish, you regened 4 energy. add that to the +6 eng from boon, and after pain has dropped, you have 5 more eng then when you cast it.

example: i have 20 eng. i cast pain. pain finishes casting. i now have 25 eng. a net gain of 5 eng. simple.

PS.

i did some quick calculation to find out the best energy/sec gains of the best energy managment skills. the best skills are elite of course, but i just wanna show the numbers for this argument (these numbers are slightly higher than those posted on guildwiki because i factored in casting times of the skills to show my point. all attribute points calculated at 10 of each respective lvl):

Offering of Blood [E] - 0.775 energy/sec
Mantra of Recall [E] - 0.667 energy/sec
Energy Drain [E] - 0.493 energy/sec
Inspired Hex - 0.367 energy/sec
Pain - 0.333 energy/sec

so, being that the best energy managment skill are elite, we can throw those out. and when compared to a very good utility e-managment skill like inspired hex, the difference is only 0.034 energy/sec. not worth taking points out of either spawning or communing for that small of a return.

is pain a good form of energy managment? no, not as good as many mesmer skill. is the gap wide enough for me to invest 9-10 points into that respective line and lose those points from spawning and communing? not even close.

again, all this is just my opinion. if you feel you need to invest in outside attribute lines, go right ahead because it will work, im not doubting that. im just showing that you dont need to.

Jetdoc · Sep 15, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

ss - you're missing the point that you would obtain that extra 4 energy during that timeframe NO MATTER WHAT SKILL YOU ARE USING.

Pain doesn't do ANYTHING in particular that gives you that extra energy, other than providing one extra energy.

In other words:

1. Sit still, don't cast a thing = +4 energy gain.
2. Cast Pain = +5 energy gain.

So, the benefit from gain is simply +1 energy.

Your comparisons above are simply flawed because you are comparing an energy gain over different periods. Using similar timeframes as a comparison:

Inspired Hex = +11 energy at level 10; less 5 energy cost; plus 3 second energy regen of +4 = 10 energy over 3 seconds = 3.33 energy/second

Pain = +6 energy from Boon; less 5 energy cost; plus 3 second energy regen of +4 = 5 energy over 3 seconds = 1.67 energy/second

That's a much larger difference than you've calculated bove - I'd rather have double the energy output of Inspired Hex.

But again, that's just me. I think Pain is more of a time management skill (i.e. resisting the temptation to cast other spells during that time) than an energy management skill.

ss1986v2 · Sep 15, 2006, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

ss - you're missing the point that you would obtain that extra 4 energy during that timeframe NO MATTER WHAT SKILL YOU ARE USING...

Inspired Hex = +11 energy at level 10; less 5 energy cost; plus 3 second energy regen of +4 = 10 energy over 3 seconds = 3.33 energy/second

why are you waiting 3 seconds after casting inspired hex before doing anything?

the casting time of inspired hex is one second. the three seconds taken with pain is a forced three seconds. wether you want to do something else or not, you cant. you have to wait for the skill to finish. that timeframe you speak of is not additional time taken, its the casting time im forced to take. so for inspired hex, you only gain 1.33 eng from the casting time.

by that logic, i should cast pain, get the regen from that, and then wait another 3 seconds before calculating the energy gain from pain. which would again put me right back on par with inspired hex.

again, by that logic any skill is energy management; just cast it, and then wait however long it takes to regen energy before doing anything else.

and yes i understand standing around doing nothing isnt very good e-management, but im not standing around doing nothing while using pain. again, im forced to stand around due to the 3 second cast time, not cause i want to. so rly im not doing nothing as you said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I think Pain is more of a time management skill (i.e. resisting the temptation to cast other spells during that time) than an energy management skill.

yes, pain is time management. but since it has the longer than usual casting time compared to your average spell, you will gain above average energy over said time. and in this case time = energy.

martialis · Sep 15, 2006, 09:12 PM // 21:12

There are some really, really stupid people on this forum, and that's all I'll say about that.

Let's change the subject to...Energizing Wind! What do people think of it? Has anyone found a good set of skills including it? Or a mediocre set of skills? Here's mine:

Boon of Creation
Energizing Wind
Ritual Lord
Shelter
Union
Displacement
Serpent's Quickness
Res

3 Beast Mastery for a 54 second EW
0 Wilderness Survival for a 15 second SQ
15 Communing
16 Spawning

I really have no idea what the recharge time of the spirits is. From guildwiki, it looks like about 25 seconds with only Rt Lord, compared to the old 15 seconds, but that's just a guess. Serpent's Quickness is absolutely necessary, because Rt Lord won't recharge fast enough. You'll be casting shelter, and Rt Lord will start blinking, and you'll start hammering '3', but it's futile, because Rt Lord is only 2/3 recharged. So that's why SQ is included, and that will help with spirits, too.

It's potentially very messy if you get interrupted, since you can't simply spam everything and not worry about energy or recharge at all. But if you keep Ritual Lord and EW synchronised, it seems to get the job done. I have more energy than I did with the old build, even with all the maintained skills. I'm weaker of course, but that's expected. Also, you have no extra skill slots, which is terrible. Does anyone have a different or obviously better build?

Correction - All the spirits recharge in 16 seconds under Rt Lord, regardless or any other skill. I couldn't say why.

trankle · Sep 16, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

why are you waiting 3 seconds after casting inspired hex before doing anything?

the casting time of inspired hex is one second. the three seconds taken with pain is a forced three seconds. wether you want to do something else or not, you cant. you have to wait for the skill to finish. that timeframe you speak of is not additional time taken, its the casting time im forced to take. so for inspired hex, you only gain 1.33 eng from the casting time.

by that logic, i should cast pain, get the regen from that, and then wait another 3 seconds before calculating the energy gain from pain. which would again put me right back on par with inspired hex.

again, by that logic any skill is energy management; just cast it, and then wait however long it takes to regen energy before doing anything else.

and yes i understand standing around doing nothing isnt very good e-management, but im not standing around doing nothing while using pain. again, im forced to stand around due to the 3 second cast time, not cause i want to. so rly im not doing nothing as you said.

yes, pain is time management. but since it has the longer than usual casting time compared to your average spell, you will gain above average energy over said time. and in this case time = energy.

So if they increased the casting time of Inspired Hex to 3 seconds, it would be a better method of energy management? What if they increased it to 5 seconds?

Jetdoc is absloutely right. You cannot count natural energy regen while factoring net energy gain. It was yours anyway, barring any sort of e-denial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

example: i have 20 eng. i cast pain. pain finishes casting. i now have 25 eng. a net gain of 5 eng. simple.

You have a gross gain of 5 energy. You have a net gain of 1 energy. 4 energy would have been there anyway.

i.e. "i have 20 eng. i lag for 3 seconds. i now have 24 eng."

A skill which nets 1 point of energy every 14 seconds (11 second recharge under RL, plus 3 second cast) is not very efficient energy management, I'm sorry to say.

ss1986v2 · Sep 16, 2006, 07:40 AM // 07:40

i understand pain its not an efficient form of management. im not gonna argue that. most any mesmer skill is gonna gonna beat it in pure energy/sec gained. my goal is to take no points from spawning and communing, while still being able to maintain the chain. there isnt any energy managment skills there, so ive got to find something to plug in.

ive tried vital weapon, and the chain dies quicker. ive tried shadowsong, and the chain cant be kept up. ive tried doom, drains energy too fast. ive even brought nothing, but the gap between my castings is too large, waiting till i have sufficient energy. but when i plug pain into the chain, it lets me keep it going for longer.

so plz let me modify any previous statement: pain is crap energy management. but as a fill in skill, it allows for better chain management than other communing and spawning based skills.

as for the ew build, the timing works out ok, and the spirit cost make it much easier to maintain. the only thing is like all ranger spirits like qz, fs, and rest, you are gonna effect your team as well, and they may not share that love and need of that ew. if the team doesnt mind, then alright, keep pumping the spirits out. just be prepared to tick off lots of other casters along the way.

unmatchedfury · Sep 16, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

pain is howver all arguments aside. good e- manegment. Whatever the math says i know for a fact its usefull as hell whenever my energy bar hits zero.

Hidden Prayers · Sep 17, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Fun skill that helps a ton:

Spirit Siphon

If the spirits don't use their energy, why can't I?