Curse

Dr Strangelove · Dec 13, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

It really comes down to deciding whether explosive growth and spirit's gift offset Soul Reaping, high level sturdier minions, more minions, and an army that's maintainable outside of battle.

Explosive growth is cool looking, but it's fairly low damage on mobs that are usually near death already. It's a marginal skill for the same reason putrid explosion is marginal.

Spirit's gift isn't that exciting. It works well enough as a minion heal, and you'll catch your warriors in it, but there's really better ways to keep your melee clean.

There's also the added pain of casting those enchantments and praying they don't get stripped/interrupted.

Like I said though, the template is strong enough in PvE that even playing a slightly gimped minion master will still work pretty well.

Bargamer · Dec 13, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Yeah, for minion-scarce areas, I usually swap my Necro-Hero out, or change his build. I love my Rit, lol

Seriously though, you wanna see tons of minions, Vizunah Square. It used to be, the Prophesy chars would bring 2 MM, Factions side would have my Rit/N and 1 MM, and we'd just spam Animates for 30 minutes. It was awesome. Of course, when Nightfall came out, it became BYONecro Time! That mission was the best for power-leveling your Heroes, they all got a level per run.

Bargamer · Dec 13, 2007, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Dr Strangelove: The two builds have two differing objectives, so it's no surprise that they choose to do it with different means. The key to understanding the Spawning Power Enchantments is that Animate Bone Minions triggers ALL of them, TWICE, at the SAME time: Upon creation. The build, and the supporting Hero builds, have other effects and spells that trigger upon death: Either minion or mob. When you add all that AOE together, you get some very competitive numbers. Rits trade the Necro's Fiend auto-DPS for the auto-effects of our Enchants, and instead of constantly spamming Blood of the Master, we simply rely on Spawning Power's +64% health. If they die on the way, oh well. Rits are a lot more casual about our minions dying, it comes with the build, LOL.

As for strips/interrupts, that is also why the build has the "OH SNAP! EMERGENCY!" skills in Reclaim Essence and/or Taste of Death. Necros don't have a comparable skill to Reclaim, and usually can't spare room for Taste. If necessary, Death Nova and Spirit's Gift are Cover Enchants, too.

Dr Strangelove · Dec 13, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

Dr Strangelove: The two builds have two differing objectives, so it's no surprise that they choose to do it with different means. The key to understanding the Spawning Power Enchantments is that Animate Bone Minions triggers ALL of them, TWICE, at the SAME time: Upon creation. The build, and the supporting Hero builds, have other effects and spells that trigger upon death: Either minion or mob. When you add all that AOE together, you get some very competitive numbers. Rits trade the Necro's Fiend auto-DPS for the auto-effects of our Enchants, and instead of constantly spamming Blood of the Master, we simply rely on Spawning Power's +64% health. If they die on the way, oh well. Rits are a lot more casual about our minions dying, it comes with the build, LOL.

I've screwed around with both, and I've ended up running a necro almost exclusively. Explosive growth is pretty, sure, but the damage just doesn't compare to the other stuff going on (splinter weapon, yo). The piddly damage from explosive growth definitely isn't worth the massive loss in DPS from weaker minions, less minions, and weaker death nova.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

As for strips/interrupts, that is also why the build has the "OH SNAP! EMERGENCY!" skills in Reclaim Essence and/or Taste of Death. Necros don't have a comparable skill to Reclaim, and usually can't spare room for Taste. If necessary, Death Nova and Spirit's Gift are Cover Enchants, too.

Necros don't really have those because they don't need them. Signet of lost souls makes reclaim essence less impressive, taste of death is unnecessary with mystic regen or heal area. Necros are more stable with less skill slots, letting them have a lot more fun toys.

Again, rit minion bombers are by no means horrible. They'll work fine, and they certainly have a lot of eye candy. As for any area where you can run a necro and rit minion master - there's really going to be so many minions that you can steamroll everything no matter how efficient you are. However, the thread topic is asking whether rit mm's are better than necro mm's, and necros are the clear winner. There's a reason all the soul reaping exploit builds in PvP chose a necromancer over a rit.

Side note - How are you liking warper vs carnagor?

Kwan Xi · Dec 13, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

Dr Strangelove:
Necros don't have a comparable skill to Reclaim, and usually can't spare room for Taste. If necessary, Death Nova and Spirit's Gift are Cover Enchants, too.

A Necro with Soul Reaping at rank 8-10 IMO doesn't need Reclaim Essence, also I believe Animate Flesh Golem would be a better elite for MMs as its a powerful tank that doesn't die as quickly as the other minions.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this thread about Ritualist MMs not Minion Bombers? We all know Minion bombers work well but MMs are different, MM minions are suppose to stay alive and take/deal damage for your party as long as possible, Necro Minions IMO are better for that kind of job.

~ Dan ~ · Dec 13, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

A Necro with Soul Reaping at rank 8-10 IMO doesn't need Reclaim Essence, also I believe Animate Flesh Golem would be a better elite for MMs as its a powerful tank that doesn't die as quickly as the other minions.

Flesh golem is just a meatshield amongst a meatshield. And it takes up an elite slot. That is why it's bad - not good.

Kwan Xi · Dec 13, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

yeah a level 26 Meatshield and once in awhile it makes a few devastating critical hits too. Oh yeah he's recyclable too.

sph0nz · Dec 13, 2007, 09:41 PM // 21:41

It's a waste of an elite slot because there are better MM elites out like [skill]Order of Undeath[/skill] and [skill]Aura of the Lich[/skill]. The only good thing about Flesh Golem is that it leaves an exploitable corpse. Otherwise, the higher level and health aren't very good. Especially since his attack speed is slow.

[skill]Order of Undeath[/skill]+[skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill]+[skill]Mark of Pain[/skill] = win.

I suppose Rits are ok for minion bombing, on the other hand.

blakecraw · Dec 13, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Necros are of course superior, but if you're pressed for a rit pve build mm is good.

Attuned was Songkai + boon = spamming bone fiends, although you can only have 8 of them so meh. Add in spirits gift and you've got a not-too-shabby character, certainly not a wasted spot on the team.

Coloneh · Dec 13, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

I love Rit MMs. you REALLY dont miss those 2 extra minions when your dealing a ton of damage, healing your frontline and giving yourself a ton of energy every 8 seconds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this thread about Ritualist MMs not Minion Bombers? We all know Minion bombers work well but MMs are different, MM minions are suppose to stay alive and take/deal damage for your party as long as possible, Necro Minions IMO are better for that kind of job.

as long as there are corpses your MM should be summoning, why would you want to keep old, decaying, dieing minions when you can make new ones?

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakecraw

Necros are of course superior, but if you're pressed for a rit pve build mm is good.

there is absolutely no reason to assume that. cookie-cutters ar not always the best option (although usually they are)

Bargamer · Dec 14, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Good point, Kwan Xi. In the interest of not talking anymore about Minion BOMBERS, and instead what the Rit class itself can offer to MMing, I won't talk about the obvious analogy between the builds for the Hellgate: London Warper or Carnagor Summoner. Really.

Dr Strangelove · Dec 14, 2007, 04:25 AM // 04:25

I'll also give you that as bombers go, humans cannot run an effective necro bomber because of jagged bones. It's just too much trouble to handle that and death nova. Olias rocked the house as a bomber in HA, though.

For humans, a rit is about as good as it gets for a bomber because the passive enchantments are a hell of a lot easier to manage than annoying targeted enchantments.

Kwan- Fleshies are terrible because better elites exist. They're ok when you really need the anchor for dark bond, or you're in a low corpse area but otherwise there's much better ways to bring the DPS.

zwei2stein · Dec 14, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Fleshie used to be good before NF, ever since nf came out, AoTL became superior because of atol+darkbond+mystic regen+(masochism if you want) (why have one bad tank when you can just spam botm and keep everything alive without any trouble.)

That, or oder of undeath, or icy veins if you want damage and are hard pressed for skill slots.

Draginvry · Dec 15, 2007, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

The key to understanding the Spawning Power Enchantments is that Animate Bone Minions triggers ALL of them, TWICE, at the SAME time

Many people also forget Shambling Horror, which triggers them twice, but at different times, rather than simultaneously. My Spirit's Gift build runs minions and shamblings and resto.

The trick to Shambling Horrors is to keep enough of them alive that when you cast a new one, they will "chain" kill themselves. As a horror with the lowest HP dies, a Jagged Horror will be spawned. But since you still only have 8 total minions, a new Shambling Horror will die to make room for the Jagged Horror, causing yet another Shambling Horror to die to make room for the even newer Jagged.

Doing this requires extensive BotM spam, since Resto alone isn't enough. But I've had times where i've seen blue numbers fill my entire screen from Spirit's Gift being triggered 6 times in less than a second. It's great for keeping minions at full health, but doesn't really do anything for backliners. Explosive Growth is another story entirely...

I suspect the only reason SP enchants haven't been nerfed is because this exploit is incredibly diffucult to pull off in general gameplay. I couldn't even imagine getting 6 or 7 Shambling Horrors in hard mode. The long recharge of Shambling means that you have to find a way to keep about four of them alive for a long duration before you see any real payoff with Spirit's Gift.

The largest possible numbers would be generated from having 8 Shambling Horrors, and then casting Bone Minions. Maybe if I'm bored one day I'll do it in a lowbie area just to see how many times it triggers. I suppose eight? Two for the minions, and once for each new Jagged Horror that would chain create.

MywayFtw · Dec 15, 2007, 11:29 AM // 11:29

From personal experience with Rit MM builds, I have found that the minions tend to die quite fast. At some points, they are dealing 0 damage to the target, and the 'bombing' isnt that much.

I guess with an hero AI, it would be easier to stick Nova on them, but for a human player, its too hard. Might stick Jagged Bones in when i cap it, and see how that goes.

Bargamer · Dec 16, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Drag: 2 for the Bone Minions, 8 for the Shambling deaths, then the original Bone Minions die, ending the cycle. So 10.

Dr. Strangelove: I dropped Death Nova from my bar when GW:EN came out, and replaced it with the much-more-targetable hex, Putrid Bile. Drop Jagged Bones for Necrosis, Rank 8, and you'll never cast another non-self Enchant ever again. I let my Necro Hero handle the Jagged Bones/Death Nova and another copy of Putrid Bile.

Besides, I thought if you just cast JB with no target/party/foe selected, it auto-drops on the closest minion that doesn't have JB on it? My own experiences and wiki verify this.

Dr Strangelove · Dec 16, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

Dr. Strangelove: I dropped Death Nova from my bar when GW:EN came out, and replaced it with the much-more-targetable hex, Putrid Bile. Drop Jagged Bones for Necrosis, Rank 8, and you'll never cast another non-self Enchant ever again. I let my Necro Hero handle the Jagged Bones/Death Nova and another copy of Putrid Bile.

Eh, my logic is that if putrid bile is usable on a rit, it's better on a necro. When I run minion bomber soul reaping exploit, I usually have a tainted flesh warder carrying it around, and I stick icy veins on my N/rt healer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

Besides, I thought if you just cast JB with no target/party/foe selected, it auto-drops on the closest minion that doesn't have JB on it? My own experiences and wiki verify this.

Thing is, that's not really what you want to do with JB, you want it on something that's going to die soon, like an older minion. Olias is a total ninja with it, though.

Bargamer · Dec 16, 2007, 04:15 AM // 04:15

A N/Rt Healer? If Resto is usable on a Necro... Ok, I'll stop. XDDD

And unless you got BotM or UI hacks, it's really hard to consistently keep track of minion health, keep up the spells, and focus on the mission. That's why I like SP's +64% minion health. Usually, it buys my Hero enough time to enchant most of my minions with Nova/JB, unless you're in Realm of Torment, in which case, roll up a Resto Rit, and get a PUG. I hate Torment, SO MUCH. XO

With Putrid Bile+Necrosis, I can pick out the trouble-making mobs and "solo-spike" them. And when they die, they go boom! Everything about me is about "boom," you see. Well, boom and conditions/degen. And just plain funny. Boom, degen, and funny. *Does a silly dance.*

MywayFtw · Dec 16, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

A N/Rt Healer? If Resto is usable on a Necro... Ok, I'll stop. XDDD

Yes, but the general 'bombing' idea comes from Spawning Power which is Rt primary. I cant really see much you can do with N/Rt though...splinter weapon on minion maybe? lol.

Dr Strangelove · Dec 16, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MywayFtw

Yes, but the general 'bombing' idea comes from Spawning Power which is Rt primary. I cant really see much you can do with N/Rt though...splinter weapon on minion maybe? lol.

N/rt is the power of restoration combined with the infinite energy of soul reaping. With the recent SR nerf, they're not quite as good, but they're still exceedingly powerful if you have a minion master running around.