Curse

Ancient Menace · Apr 19, 2008, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by toastgodsupreme

But the problem is that Rits get outclassed by a Boon/Prot. Heal monks outclass them with divine favor picking up the slack. And now with HB builds, that's pretty much destroyed any comparison.

But heal monks never go PURE healing. Divine favor is there backing them up.

I won't systematically destroy your post, mostly because my fellow rit's have already beat me to it. I will point out just one little thing;

This is how a single heal spell with 12 Resto will compare to a single heal spell with 12/12 Healing Prayers/Divine Favor

Orison, @ 12 Divine Favor and 12 Healing Prayers: 60 health from Orison and 38 from Divine Favor for a total of 98 health

-in comparison-

Mend Body And Soul @ 12 Restoration: 96 health, plus a possible condition removal

So yeah, I guess I'm outclassed by a whole two health! Oh, but wait, what's this.. Oh yeah, I still have 100+ attribute points to spend! You have... 6.

Wait, so where did a healer w/ divine favor "outclass" me?

Finally, to quell an argument that's been fairly popular in this thread, it's fairly obvious that you've never actually played as a ritualist if you believe that having your spirits get killed will completely shut-down a build.

Yes, most rits do carry a spirit or two, maybe three, to trigger the "in earshot of" effects, but by no means will the absence of those cause the build to fail. The only exception to this are the Spirit Spammer builds, which probably have Rit Lord (lulz) anyways... which is a whole different category of fail.

And even if the mob does target my spirits... I actually consider that a good thing! With a modest investment in Spawning you can give your spirits a nice boost of health (24% more with only 6 in Spawning) and frankly, I'd much rather have the mob targeting my disposable spirits instead of my squishy backline. Even if it only slows them down a little... that few seconds can make all the difference.

One last thing: I can easily out damage your entire smiting bar with two spells and an Elite in a "Useless" category; Spirit's Strength (12 Spawning) Weapon of Aggression (9 Channeling) and Judge's Insight (9 Smiting). With a wand. And auto-attack.

Can you do that? No? Guess that's a good reason to go rit primary....

Kiluna · Apr 20, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Why are people trying to compare monk and ritualist? Other being healer with protection and other being healer with damage?

If you ask me you can't really compare them, as monk is based on reducing the damage your team takes and healing what ever gets through (blocking, -dmg taken and so on) while rit is designed to heal the damage party takes and assist killing stuff.

@ Ancient Menace,
So you compare ritualist & monk heals with maybe the worts direct healing spell from monk arsenal to maybe the best ritualist heal out there? (about every bar with points in resto have it and don't remember when i saw orison on monk last time...). You also seem to forget that divine healing comes in to play for EVERY "target ally" spell we use (be it prot, smiting or healing), which lead to the thing that in the end we will heal more.

Healing Whisper, Gift of Health (non WoH prot bar) and Ethereal Light are something i would put on my healing bar any day before orison and all of them heal almost same as Mend Body And Soul, without divine favor bonus. With divine bonus it would be more ofcourse. Then there is Patient Spirit, while not being instant direct heal... it still comes after 2 secs and heals more than MB&S, and it can give you enchanted condition for Dwayna's Kiss. Also you didn't use the best spells to compare with each other since they don't share same cooldown. Orison 49 Health per second (hps), MB&S 32 Health per second (hps), Orison wins with 17 HPS, which in half minute fight would equal to 510 health more healed, if the monk and rit would do nothing but spam their 1 heal

Also 99% of the 12 healing / divine builds are Healer's Boon builds, which means monks heal will do 50% more healing and even a orison would nearly heal more than that rit heal, without divine bonus. Though some of them will throw point or two from divine to protection to have some protection on their bar.

But like i sayd, you can't really compare 2 classes that work different ways. But if you really want to, i would say rit gets to as close as being equal to monk, but not better.

Monk: Makes your party avoid damage (SoA, SH, Aegis, Guardian, bonder, PS). Heals if something gets through.
Ritualist: You trade the protection monks have to have damage (or take long cast spirits to give party blocking or w/e, which will die fast if many people take damage).

Sorry for typos, didn't sleep last night well (so hot in here) so i'm little sleepy.

Ps. I'm not here to start or support any kind of flaming about this, but just to give my opinion on this thing. As i'm here to make up my mind between necro and rit for my last charracter slot :P

horseradish · Apr 20, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiluna

As i'm here to make up my mind between necro and rit for my last charracter slot :P

Buy a character slot and make both.

On-topic:

I also don't understand why people compare Rits and Monks. Just because they have a few similar characteristics does not warrant comparison. Their dynamics are different. Even if they mimic each other's roles, they are almost always gimping themselves and their contribution to the party.

Bargamer · Apr 20, 2008, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Make a Rit/N, and take Necro Heroes with you. Everyone wins.

Xiooua · Apr 20, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiluna

@ Ancient Menace,
So you compare ritualist & monk heals with maybe the worts direct healing spell from monk arsenal to maybe the best ritualist heal out there? (about every bar with points in resto have it and don't remember when i saw orison on monk last time...). You also seem to forget that divine healing comes in to play for EVERY "target ally" spell we use (be it prot, smiting or healing), which lead to the thing that in the end we will heal more.

Healing Whisper, Gift of Health (non WoH prot bar) and Ethereal Light are something i would put on my healing bar any day before orison and all of them heal almost same as Mend Body And Soul, without divine favor bonus. With divine bonus it would be more ofcourse.

Actually, Mend Body & Soul isn't the best heal a Ritualist has. It's useful for the condition removal within a heal, but in terms of direct healing it's not the strongest Ritualist heal in the Restoration line. Our most powerful heal is Spirit Transfer. This heals for 205 health so long as a spirit is within earshot. The monks Infuse Health will typically heal for more, but at the cost of losing half your health. We only sacrifice a spirit's health. Next to that we have Spirit Light, which heals for 156. You'll get these large heals while only having to spec 12 into Restoration.

Healing Whisper only heals for 126 if you have 12 in Healing Prayers and 12 in Divine Favor. Gift of Health grants 161 at the cost of disabling all of your other spells in the Healing Prayer line. Spirit Light only heals for 5 Heath less, and only costs a 17% sacrifice if you don't have a spirit within earshot. Which is rare, and even if you don't, Spirit Light actually heals over the sacrifice cost if you use it on yourself.

Ethereal Light only heals for 123 with divine favor. Again, beaten by Spirit Transfer and Spirit Light. Also, most of the spells you listed cannot be used on the caster. All of our heals can.

These numbers are based on a Monk speccing 12 in Healing Prayers and Divine Favor, this leaves 3 points left to go into Protection Prayers, where the Monk shines. Typically, a Monk won't spec 12/12 in Healing Prayers and Divine Favor because they need to spec into Protection as well. Or at least, they should be. The only counter to this is Healer's Boon, but this locks the Monk into an elite and another line, and still neglects Protection Prayers.

Because the Ritualist's primary is so terrible, we can ignore it completely and spec 12 into Restoration and 12 into any other line. This makes us able to heal effectively while adding support into other areas of the party's needs.

The one thing a Ritualist can't beat is the Monks ability to reduce or prevent damage completely. This is where the Monk is at it's best.

I have a Ritualist and a Monk, and I love both classes. But I'd rather take a Ritualist for healing over a Monk.

Kiluna · Apr 20, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiooua

Actually, Mend Body & Soul isn't the best heal a Ritualist has. It's useful for the condition removal within a heal, but in terms of direct healing it's not the strongest Ritualist heal in the Restoration line.

I did not refer to best as of direct healing done, but instead best as it offers an average heal with conditional removal with spirit(s).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiooua

Healing Whisper only heals for 126 if you have 12 in Healing Prayers and 12 in Divine Favor. Gift of Health grants 161 at the cost of disabling all of your other spells in the Healing Prayer line. Spirit Light only heals for 5 Heath less, and only costs a 17% sacrifice if you don't have a spirit within earshot. Which is rare, and even if you don't, Spirit Light actually heals over the sacrifice cost if you use it on yourself.

Gift of Health is only used in bars with no other healing prayer spells, like on Restore Condition build (go observe a top50 GvG and you notice that some of them use it). Like i sayd.

And well, sure you can spirit light as self heal, but i would get a net gain of 50hp with it on my monk at 12 @ resto, so Orison beats it for self healing, even without divine favor healing. It equals to healing touch (without divine favor) as self heal.

And well you compare by the ammount of the spell heals, which only matter in a times when spike happens, which again happens how often in PvE?

How about if we compare in terms of HPS (health per second) HPE (health per energy)?

Ritualist:
Spirit Light: 39 HPS, 31.2 HPE + 17% hp sac.
Spirit Tranfers: 41 HPS, 20.5 HPE
Mend Body And Soul: 32 HPS, 19.2 HPE

Monk:
Orison of Healing: 30 HPS, 12 HPE
With Divine: 49 HPS, 19.6 HPE

Patient Spirit: 34 HPS, 20.4 HPE
With Divine: 46 HPS, 28 HPE

Jamei's Gaze(or heal other): 50 HPS, 15.1 HPE
With Divine: 66 HPS, 19.9 HPE

I didn't wan't to add in elites from monk for compare since rits got 0 big heal elites. But WoH without divine and target below 50% would be 62 HPS 37 HPE, which would alone outheal any rit spell in both, terms of HPS and efficiency. But since it's elite and rits have no elite heals lets not talk about it.

So about my little efficiency comparing;
Spirit Light, really effective in terms of energy, due to long recharge you can't dish out insane HPS with it. Only monk elites can fight against that efficiency(but sacrifice balances it out). But due to low HPS, Orison with 6 Divine Favor equals to same ammount of HPS.

Spirit Tranfers, a high energy heal, so lets compare it with the listed monk high energy heal (heal other). In terms of HPS monk heal wins by miles, but lose in energy efficiency, 12 divine favor can make it almost as energy effective as ST and leaves it even more behind in HPS. Monk spell can only target other though.

Mend Body And Soul, patient spirit wins this one in both, even without any points in divine. Orison without any divine is only a little behind in terms of energy efficiency, add few points in divine and Orison wins.

Oh well, enough of this comparing bull crap, like you sayd yourself, monk is here to protect and heal, ritu is here to heal and do something other. If you look at the spells i listed, you notice that they are about equal and due to divine favor monk spells win in raw healing power (over time), while rit might win little in energy efficiency, which again divine favor makes little less noticable.

They work different way, their heals are about equal. End of story

Pyro maniac · Apr 20, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

You only need 1-2 direct heals on a bar. Monks can combine those heals with prot and condition/hex removal
Restoration is better in direct heal, but is limited to it. In places where prot is elsewhere or direct healing is needed a resto healer is better, mainly because of the abuse of Soul Reaping.

JoeKnowMo · Apr 20, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiluna

Howw about if we compare in terms of HPS (health per second) HPE (health per energy)?

Ritualist:
Spirit Light: 39 HPS, 31.2 HPE + 17% hp sac.
Spirit Tranfers: 41 HPS, 20.5 HPE
Mend Body And Soul: 32 HPS, 19.2 HPE

Monk:
Orison of Healing: 30 HPS, 12 HPE
With Divine: 49 HPS, 19.6 HPE

Patient Spirit: 34 HPS, 20.4 HPE
With Divine: 46 HPS, 28 HPE

Jamei's Gaze(or heal other): 50 HPS, 15.1 HPE
With Divine: 66 HPS, 19.9 HPE

I didn't wan't to add in elites from monk for compare since rits got 0 big heal elites. But WoH without divine and target below 50% would be 62 HPS 37 HPE, which would alone outheal any rit spell in both, terms of HPS and efficiency. But since it's elite and rits have no elite heals lets not talk about it.

<snip>

They work different way, their heals are about equal. End of story

Nice summary.

Xiooua · Apr 21, 2008, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiluna

I did not refer to best as of direct healing done, but instead best as it offers an average heal with conditional removal with spirit(s).

You said it was the best Ritualist heal, and I corrected you, as it isn't. I didn't realize you considered it the best because of the condition removal. It's by no means a bad skill, but in terms of the healing it provides it's not the best in the line.

Quote:

Gift of Health is only used in bars with no other healing prayer spells, like on Restore Condition build (go observe a top50 GvG and you notice that some of them use it). Like i sayd.

Haha, believe me, I know. I was basing my comparison with Healing Prayers specced at 12, so this would be under the assumption that other skills in the line were being used with it. I use Gift of Health on hybrid bars all the time, but that's with Healing Prayers specced less than 12.

Quote:

And well, sure you can spirit light as self heal, but i would get a net gain of 50hp with it on my monk at 12 @ resto, so Orison beats it for self healing, even without divine favor healing. It equals to healing touch (without divine favor) as self heal.

I wasn't saying Spirit Light is good for a self-heal if you're not using a spirit. I was saying the heal is so large, if the caster uses it on themself without a spirit, the heal is so large it covers the sacrifice cost.

Quote:

And well you compare by the ammount of the spell heals, which only matter in a times when spike happens, which again happens how often in PvE?

I wasn't aware we weren't talking about a PvE environment. No, spikes don't happen often in PvE, but there are plenty of times when a big heal is needed, so I don't see the problem in comparing these spells based on their heal amounts.

Quote:

Oh well, enough of this comparing bull crap, like you sayd yourself, monk is here to protect and heal, ritu is here to heal and do something other. If you look at the spells i listed, you notice that they are about equal and due to divine favor monk spells win in raw healing power (over time), while rit might win little in energy efficiency, which again divine favor makes little less noticable.

This may be the case if a Monk is running 12/12 Healing Prayers and Divine. Based on your comparisons a monk heals only 49 HPS more than a Ritualist. You may win in HPS, but our heals are still larger and we're still not stuck with three attributes. And we also have some of the best energy management in the game, again, due to the ability to only have to spec into two lines. There's also a reason why you see N/Rt abusing the Soul Reaping attribute for Restoration spells, as opposed to Healing Prayers spells.

I'm not saying Monks are bad healers, far from it, but I still think a Ritualist is a more efficient healer than a monk. While a monk is a much, much more efficient protector than a Ritualist.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. This is really a matter of opinion and preference. Both classes are very different, with only one similar line, and both have their place in a party. Often times together as a Monk and a Ritualist compliment each other quite nicely.

mrmango · Apr 21, 2008, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Why are we discussing ritualists compared to bad monks (full heal/divine).

Dr Strangelove · Apr 21, 2008, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmango

Why are we discussing ritualists compared to bad monks (full heal/divine).

The same reason we're discussing monks compared to bad rits (full resto).

Improvavel · Apr 21, 2008, 04:17 AM // 04:17

People keep looking at the picture without considering the frame...

If you don't have any other means of damage mitigation, 2 Hybrid Monks win.

When you start adding other means of mitigation other stuff might work better...

When a Para is there shouting [skill]"There's nothing to fear"[/skill] and [skill]"Save yourselves"[/skill], replacing the 2nd monk Hybrid for a channeling/restoration rit or n/rt, is superior.

Which one is better, the n/rt or the rit/x? Depends, if MM is present, probably the n/rt is better. If some kind of hex removal is needed, then the rit might have advantage cause he can use its secondary.

Sometimes, some even use Dervishes as healers...

And in some strange situation where 2 healers/protters aren't enough, is probably better make 2nd and 3rd guy offensive/healer hybrids to not lose offense.

Replacing both monks completely is a bit harder, but depends on the team configuration - if hex removal and damage mitigation is assured, then 2 offensive/healer hybrids can be more efficient than 2 monks or 1 monk+1 offensive/healing hybrid.

Div · Apr 21, 2008, 05:03 AM // 05:03

This is such a dumb thread.

HAI R CRITIKEL DIFENZES SINS BETTAR TANK TAHN DOYLKA WERRIAR?