Curse

shinslw · Jun 20, 2009, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

the buff makes spirit spamming easier to play...though doesn't really make spirit spamming all that more effective than it was before.

I totally agree on this one

~

Jarus · Jun 20, 2009, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Having played a bit, I do see how Rits could still use a bit of love. Spirit wrangling is really all they addressed in this update, but at the same time they nerfed weapon spells.

Keira Nightgale · Jun 20, 2009, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyphen

Having spent time playing since the update, I've quickly become jaded with the ritualist changes. It was really exciting to see so many changes, but when you think about it, the majority were just based on speeding up set-up time, which really wasn't my main problem with ritualists in the first place

So, this patch was a really decent step, and I was happy to see rits get some attention, but it hasn't solved the classes' problems. I've got a few ideas, feel free to change some around and come up with your own.

Making useless skills like...the majority of the Channeling line (Lamentation, Renewing Surge) interesting. It's nukes need to be buffed, because as it is now, they're incredibly weak, and with ridiculous cooldowns.
Fixing Vampirism and Signet of Spirit's targeting glitches.
It'd be nice if shorter-lasting weapon buffs scaled better after 12. For example, Warding at 10 SP and 14 Restoration: 12s pre, 11.2 post. 10 without any investment in SP pre-patch. So shorter weapon buffs saw a nerf for ritualists aswell, who need to invest a heafty amount into SP to get a 1s gain over pre-patch.
Making the Communing spirits more durable. Even with Armor of the Unfeeling, it's pretty rough. A purely personal request, only affecting party members, would greatly help with MM team. As a guideline, spirits should at least be 2/3rds as effective (durable) as an imbagon's shouts, considering how much of the bar has to be invested in it, and with so little energy management available outside of Assassin's Promise.
Speaking of energy management, Ritual Lord giving 5 energy per binding ritual? Spirit-spamming builds do need energy management (or at least, the protective ones do, as they're still 15-25e).
The new Spiritleech Aura doesn't belong in Restoration.

So, this patch was a really decent step, and I was happy to see rits get some attention, but it hasn't solved the classes' problems.

Simply revert ritualist skills to early 2006 values, pve only of course.

Anyway, my suggestions
Pve Only

Channeling

Agony Binding Ritual. Create a level 4...13...16 spirit (15...39...52 second lifespan). Whenever a foe is hit by an attack that foe receives 7... 15... 27... additional damage 15e 3/4c 30r

Ancestor's rage Skill All foes adjacent to target ally are struck for 30-130 lightning damage. 5e 1/4c 8r

Bloodsong As it is now but increase level by 2

Channeled Strike as it is now but 1casting

Clamor of Souls Elite Spell. Allied spirit lose 100 health.
Deals (10...65...82) lightning damage to target and nearby foes. Steal up to 100hp from target foe and one additional foe for each spirit within earshot.
10e 1c 7r

Cruel Was Daoshen Item Spell. (15...51...60 seconds.) Drop effect: deals 10...94...115 lightning damage to all nearby foes, while holding Daoshen's ashes your channeling weapon spell deal 4-7-10 damage more.
15e 1c 10r

Destruction Binding Ritual. Creates a level 1...13...17 spirit (30 second lifespan). Everytime a foe in the area dies nearby enemies are stuck for 15...35...50 damage.
10e 3/4c 15r

Destructive Was Glaive Elite Item Spell. (30...54...60 seconds.) Your Ritualist skills have 15% armor penetration +3% for each rank in spawning power. Drop effect: deals 10...82...100 lightning damage to all foes in the area.
10e 1c 10r

Essence Strike Spell. Deals 15...51...60 lightning damage. You gain 1...7...9 Energy if any spirits are within earshot.
5e 1c 6r

Gaze from Beyond Spell. The spirit nearest you loses 10...26...30 Health. Deals 4 lightning damage to target foe for each point of Health lost, if target foe dies you gain 5 energy.
5e 1c 10r

Gaze of Fury Binding Ritual. Destroys a spirit. Creates a level 1...12...16 spirit (30...54...60 second lifespan). Its attacks deal 8...20...25 damage.
10e 3/4c 20r

Lamentation Spell. You remove 0...1...2 enchantments and deal 15...75...100 damage. No effect unless this foe is within earshot of a corpse or spirit. If more than 1 enchantment is lost this way this skill gets an additional 7 seconds recharge
5e 1c 7r

Nightmare Weapon Weapon Spell. (12 seconds.) Target ally's attacks steal 10...42...50 Health but deal 10...42...50 less damage. Ends after 15seconds.
5e 1c 20r

Offering of Spirit As it is now.

Painful Bond Hex Spell. Also hexes foes near your target (10...18...20 seconds). Spirits do 8...18...20 more damage against these foes, everytime an hexed foe is hit by a spirit nearby foes are stuck for 9...12...16 damage
15e 1c 12r

Renewing Surge Leave it as it is, rofl flare

Spirit Boon Strike Spell. Deals 10...82...100 lightning damage. If struck foe is casting a spell he's interrupted and a 1...7...12 spirit of sorrow dealing 5...13...17 damage is summoned
10e 1c 20r

Spirit Burn Spell. Target foe is struck for 5-50 lightning damage. If any Spirits are within earshot, Spirit Burn deals +10-40 damage.
5e 1c 6r

Spirit rift Spell Open a Spirit Rift at target foe's location. After 3 seconds, all adjacent foes are struck for 25-135 lightning damage.
10e 1c 5r

Splinter weapon
Spell For 15-60 seconds, target ally has a Splinter Weapon and his successful attacks deals 5-50 damage to all adjacent foes. Cannot be used on yourself
5e 1c 5r

Wailing Weapon Weapon Spell. (3...8...9 seconds.) Your attacks cause bleeding and interrupt attacking foes
5e 1c 15c

Warmonger's Weapon Weapon Spell. (3...11...13 seconds.) Attacks interrupt an action. Does not interrupt attacking foes.
5e 1c 20c

Weapon of Aggression Same as it is now

Weapon of Fury Elite Weapon Spell. (5...17...20 seconds.) Target ally gains +25% attack speed and +25% movement speed along with 5...41...50% more adrenaline gain but takes double damage instead, when this weapon spell ends you lose 5energy.
10e 1c 6r

Wielder's strike Spell Target foe is struck for 15-60 lightning damage. If you are under the effects of a weapon Spell, you deal an additional 15-60 lightning damage.
5e 1c 6r

Now, consider half of these changes can sound overpowered, but compared with SF, unnerfed ROJ, Imbagon a scythe sin they are not so unthinkable.
Most of the benefits are gained when playing in a party rather than solo or in a gimmick, therefore they are aimed to increase ritualist's presence in PUG's

Anyway they could simply make spirit stack like they used to do, that would be the only to make spiritspam on par with other builds.

TheodenKing · Jun 20, 2009, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyphen

[*]Fixing Vampirism and Signet of Spirit's targeting glitches.

Put Summon Spirits in your bar and use it frequently. Not only does it move and heal your spirits, it also forces targeting onto a single target.

Regarding the update, consider that the long cast times of binding rituals received no buff from weapon/offhand mods, nor from Mindbender or glyphs. So being a spirit spammer automatically meant being slow, with only a couple exceptions. In this update, they addressed that weakness in a great way. I don't feel they made rits overpowered, but I think they did enough to get people to start playing them more often in pve.

I like your idea about energy management through spawning power, similar to the way soul reaping works, maybe watered down slightly.

Lyphen · Jun 20, 2009, 02:52 PM // 14:52

I was just thinking - Spirit Siphon is by an large the best thing that was updated, because it enables so many other changes to the channeling line. And, it also opens up a way to change ritualist energy management - not through inherent stats like Spawning Power|Soul Reaping, but by having specific skills that fix different playstyles.

Spirit Siphon is the support/channeling magic/spirit spam energy management (Life/Bloodsong/Signet of Spirits fit into those builds). We can now completely forget about putting Offering of Spirit on our bar, letting that skill become something more exciting.

But, in terms of ritualist roles, like I mentioned in the OP, defensive spirit spam still needs a skill to help out with energy management, because no points can be spared into channeling. I mentioned Ritual Lord, because it's the only reasonable ritualist elite for that playstyle. And if it were changed to a flat energy gain per binding ritual created, we can finally change the huge amount of boring e-management elites in SP: Attuned Was Songkai, Spirit Channeling, and Wielder's Zeal + Energetic Was Lee Sa. And Signet of Spirit's useless PvP version.

Going into more fanciful stuff, I'd really like to see Draw Spirit (PvE and PvP) to teleport all spirits to the caster, and Summon Spirits to be a Signet of Spirits-like spell (summon 2 spirits, dealing ~25 damage, lasting x seconds for x ranks in spawning power) Enabling all rit playstyles to have an offensive spirit spam, which I think is good, flavour-wise.

Tek · Jun 20, 2009, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daisuko

essence strike should also give energy based on number of spirits... capping it off as well... making it more like 1..4 energy per spirit in earshot, max of 1..15 (1 per rank of channeling)

I agree with you on this one. It would be nice if they increase the energy gain from this skill. After you pay the energy cost, you're only gaining +3 energy.

caretaker's charge... change description to... heals all adjacent allies for 1 health per 2 damage this skill deals.

Okay, dude. This is one of the few Channeling skills that are actually good and you want to nerf it by putting it in the Restoration line? Rits have enough healing spells and do not need anymore.

spirit rift... increase energy cost to 15, increase recharge to 20, change description to... for 5..20 seconds, whenever a spirit is destroyed in this ward, all adjacent foes take 15..50 damage.

Okay, you can tell you didn't put ANY thought into this decision. Spirit Rift is THE best Channeling skill for damage and it already costs 10e. If you were to increase the energy cost and recharge time, it would be useless. Also, this would require a Ritualist to bring tons of spirits. I don't like playing a Spirit Spammer all the time and yet, I use Spirit Rift is almost all of my builds.

spirit siphon... remove all energy from all spirits nearby you, you gain 10...25% of the energy lost by each spirit.

Once again, dumb suggestion. By draining all energy from all of your spirits, you make them ineffective. Spirits can not attack w/o energy, bud. They did a good job with this skill by giving you 50% of a single spirit's energy.

They did a great job with improving the Rit. I believe one of the reasons they did this is to encourage people to play the Ritualist more oftten, since it's one of the underplayed toons. Also, Spirit Spamming takes absolutely no skill, what-so-ever. You lay down spirits, hit foes with Painful Bond, and then move your spirits (Summon Spirits) into position and let them do the rest. This update was a nice little jolt to get people interested in the Rit so they can see the true potential.

I have been playing a Rit as my primary since it was released. I have cleared all elite areas (w/o Ursan) using my Rit and currently working on GWAMM. Rits are so versatile in that they can run Damage, Support, Healing, Spirit Spamming, Buffs, etc. Show me another class that can play that many roles effectively.

Joseph Spiritmaster · Jun 20, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

tbh, Rits were fine before update, but with the update and my play style it was a buff. I really do believe that the update did make a good step towards rits become possibly part of the meta again.

upier · Jun 20, 2009, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Move all spirits into Spawning.
Move skills that help spirits deal more damage into Channeling. Move skills that help spirits protect better into Communing. Move skills that help spirits heal better into Resto.

Makes binding rituals the ritualists version of dervish avatars.

Maneo Ranae · Jun 20, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by deank81

I'd like more consideration for weapon spells.

**For every rank in SP your animated/created creatures gain 4% more health and your weapon spells gain 4% more effectiveness.**

Meaning the 4% effectiveness for weapon spells would affect the variable. So in Weapon of Warding it would affect duration and health regen. With Xinrae's Weapon it would affect the ammount of life-stealing (and not the duration).....would seem more logical to me, as most weapon spells end on a trigger, so lenghtened duration is useless then.

... Ehh, ehh... Ehh, WHAT?! At 14 Restoration Magic and 13 Spawning Power, that would be... 76x1,04^13=127 health steal,... Are you sure, or would you like to revise your statement?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tek

Originally Posted by Daisuko
spirit siphon... remove all energy from all spirits nearby you, you gain 10...25% of the energy lost by each spirit.

Once again, dumb suggestion. By draining all energy from all of your spirits, you make them ineffective. Spirits can not attack w/o energy, bud. They did a good job with this skill by giving you 50% of a single spirit's energy.

Tek,... Have you ever even played a Ritualist with an attackspirit? Their attacks,... Read this, remember it, write it down, I don't care,... Their attacks DO NOT USE ENERGY.

THEY DON'T NEED IT. So take it away! It doesn't matter! Just makes them less susceptible to Energy Surge, not that that skill's such a big problem or something lol.

Arkantos · Jun 20, 2009, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

the buff makes spirit spamming easier to play...though doesn't really make spirit spamming all that more effective than it was before.

It's a lot more effective than it was before. In 5 seconds, you could have an army of spirits up. Before the update, you'd be able to get about 2 up. Not to mention you can now get 3 offensive spirits up in one second. Oh, and reclaim essence is amazing. Not only do you have fast casting spirits, you can recharge each one and get energy after a fight.

There are many more things that should be changed, but at least ritualists are useful now. I've been testing out builds for 2 hero ritualists, and I must say, 8 spirits up in about 4 seconds is amazing.

rick1027 · Jun 21, 2009, 12:02 AM // 00:02

i think this last update might be a series to slowly bring ritualist it playing without making them op. my feelings are bring them up slowly and buff only there weakest spot til they become useable in every group. the spirit spamming was the weakest link to start with so thats why they started there

Bargamer · Jun 21, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

Tek,... Have you ever even played a Ritualist with an attackspirit? Their attacks,... Read this, remember it, write it down, I don't care,... Their attacks DO NOT USE ENERGY.

THEY DON'T NEED IT. So take it away! It doesn't matter! Just makes them less susceptible to Energy Surge, not that that skill's such a big problem or something lol.

Yeah, the Spirit's "attacks" or aura or whatever they do is like wanding: They don't use energy, adrenaline, or any such thing for their effect. Whoever told you that they did is a noob. You can drain them dry, put energy degen on them, and they'll still keep on trucking. Until they die.

I mean, otherwise there would be an E-management skill for Spirit's use, LAWL!

"Please Sir, May I Have Some More?" (Spiritness Attribute)
1 sec activation, 1 sec recharge, 60 second duration, 30 Energy cost

The Spirit that casts this spell, which can be interrupted easily, gains +1 Energy regen and -100 Armor. You may dump this Spirit's face into a nearby pile of snow to remove a Burning Condition.

snaek · Jun 21, 2009, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by arkantos

It's a lot more effective than it was before. In 5 seconds, you could have an army of spirits up. Before the update, you'd be able to get about 2 up. Not to mention you can now get 3 offensive spirits up in one second. Oh, and reclaim essence is amazing. Not only do you have fast casting spirits, you can recharge each one and get energy after a fight.

summon spirits says hai. once you get the first set-up done, its wasn't terribly hard to maintain it.

Lhim · Jun 21, 2009, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

... Ehh, ehh... Ehh, WHAT?! At 14 Restoration Magic and 13 Spawning Power, that would be... 76x1,04^13=127 health steal,... Are you sure, or would you like to revise your statement?

Weapon spells as a whole should be looked at of course, weakening them by default, but making them stronger in combination with SP. I didn't bother doing the maths, because I'm not good at it. I'd leave that to others, but the idea is to make it beneficial for Rits to use SP, instead of forcing them to use it, as it is now the case (when using weapon spells).

For example: if you have Xinrae's Weapon and Warmonger's Weapon on the same bar. Since the update the duration of Warmonger's Weapon got shortened. To compensate you need an investment in SP. However doing so means taking some points off restoration, causing all spells in that attribute line to be less effective. With this change at least weapon spells from one attribute line wouldn't suffer if you have to invest into SP to compensate for weapon spells in another attribute line. It would make weapon spells stronger on a primary Rit. And what's wrong with that?

p.s. I got a different number btw, 115 and something...

Maneo Ranae · Jun 22, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

I actually don't see the problem with the change to Weapon spell durations.

Before it was easy to just run 12 Resto with 12 Channeling (for Bloodsong & Offering of Spirit per example). Don't you see what's wrong with that? It's essentially a super-hybrid.

If Monks wanted to be a hybrid (Per example; healing and protting), they would have to make their split something like 12 HP, 10 PP & 8 DF.
With pretty much every other class, you'll have the same deal because their primaries are actually worth it, and so they invest in it, so other attributes had to be toned down.

But the Ritualists could just pump 12 & 12, be hybrid, deal damage AND heal as good as a Monk can. At least now, the Ritualists are forced to use their Primary when using weapon spells, like you said, but that only makes it more balanced.

I have an idea in my head of why it's fair and balanced, but if I didn't explain it right in the above, please excuse me.

Btw. The number I got = 126,54558655558948964966334464,... And that's the truth!

Keira Nightgale · Jun 22, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

I actually don't see the problem with the change to Weapon spell durations.

Before it was easy to just run 12 Resto with 12 Channeling (for Bloodsong & Offering of Spirit per example). Don't you see what's wrong with that? It's essentially a super-hybrid.

If Monks wanted to be a hybrid (Per example; healing and protting), they would have to make their split something like 12 HP, 10 PP & 8 DF.
With pretty much every other class, you'll have the same deal because their primaries are actually worth it, and so they invest in it, so other attributes had to be toned down.

But the Ritualists could just pump 12 & 12, be hybrid, deal damage AND heal as good as a Monk can. At least now, the Ritualists are forced to use their Primary when using weapon spells, like you said, but that only makes it more balanced.

I have an idea in my head of why it's fair and balanced, but if I didn't explain it right in the above, please excuse me.

Btw. The number I got = 126,54558655558948964966334464,... And that's the truth!

Too bad that ritualist aren't monks, majority of their skills do suck terribly compared to what monks have and neither channeling or restoration compare with healing/protection or elementalist air line. Therefore they were meant as a hybrid. Add to this that Spawning power is bad, while DF is pretty godly in what it does and you got your answer.

Add to that 2 years of constant nerfing and you got why ritualist cannot be viable with a tri attribute spread.

Add the fact that spawning power (unlike strength) doesn't offer the luxury of useful skills, heck they are even worse than the rest of ritualists one.

Cebe · Jun 22, 2009, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyphen

Making useless skills like...the majority of the Channeling line (Lamentation, Renewing Surge) interesting. It's nukes need to be buffed, because as it is now, they're incredibly weak, and with ridiculous cooldowns.

I do agree with this. There are only a select few Channeling Magic spells which make Channeling worthwhile. Lamentation seems especially weak. Renewing Surge, at least, can have it's recharge modified even if it is a Ritualist Flare Spam. Spirit Boon Strike is another which could do with being refreshed, although having a few players in a team using it at the right time can help to prolong the likes of Shelter and Displacement.

woeye · Jun 22, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keira Nightgale

Too bad that ritualist aren't monks, majority of their skills do suck terribly compared to what monks have and neither channeling or restoration compare with healing/protection or elementalist air line. Therefore they were meant as a hybrid. Add to this that Spawning power is bad, while DF is pretty godly in what it does and you got your answer.

Add to that 2 years of constant nerfing and you got why ritualist cannot be viable with a tri attribute spread.

Add the fact that spawning power (unlike strength) doesn't offer the luxury of useful skills, heck they are even worse than the rest of ritualists one.

This poster is the major reason why I stopped playing my rit long time ago. "Monks are better healers!" and "Go ele for serious DPS". Now that I play monk no one questions my healing powers anymore. The pro gamers won. Who cares about fun anyway.

Lhim · Jun 22, 2009, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maneo Ranae

I actually don't see the problem with the change to Weapon spell durations.

Before it was easy to just run 12 Resto with 12 Channeling (for Bloodsong & Offering of Spirit per example). Don't you see what's wrong with that? It's essentially a super-hybrid.

If Monks wanted to be a hybrid (Per example; healing and protting), they would have to make their split something like 12 HP, 10 PP & 8 DF.
With pretty much every other class, you'll have the same deal because their primaries are actually worth it, and so they invest in it, so other attributes had to be toned down.

But the Ritualists could just pump 12 & 12, be hybrid, deal damage AND heal as good as a Monk can. At least now, the Ritualists are forced to use their Primary when using weapon spells, like you said, but that only makes it more balanced.

I have an idea in my head of why it's fair and balanced, but if I didn't explain it right in the above, please excuse me.

Btw. The number I got = 126,54558655558948964966334464,... And that's the truth!

Well, I do see your point. However, I still feel that SP could use a change, specially related to weapon spells. After all, the last update was directed to spirits (which is great), but SP hardly changed and weapon spells have been nerfed a little. Besides, SP still is the worst primary by far. At least they could narrow the gap more than they did with the last update. I'm just hoping that this wasn't the last thing they did.

Don't get me wrong though, I liked the last update and have always enjoyed playing my rit (before and after the changes).

p.s. I told you I was bad a math

reaper with no name · Jun 23, 2009, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

summon spirits says hai. once you get the first set-up done, its wasn't terribly hard to maintain it.

The new Signet of Spirits says hai.