Curse

Keira Nightgale · Jun 19, 2009, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I think you guys are overreacting.

Spirits are stronger. You got new skills to take more mileage of spirits.

Yeah, Channeling/Resto spirits are probably weaker now, but there are new opportunities.

Armor of unfeeling might make some of the defensive spirits worth a second look too.

For ages people complained how spawning power is so weak.

Now they have a skill that makes 3 spirits ever 10 seconds, turning stuff like boon of creation and gift of spirits in healing and energy management bombs.

Who cares about OoS when you can get billions of energy every 10 seconds + damage?

Weapons work better for Rits than X/Rt due to Spawning power.

You just have to forget the days of Resto/Channel hybrids.

Now it seems to be Spirits + something.

Bro, have you tested spirits in pve, they are still useless. They nerfed hybrids in favour of something even less effective.
Anet could have scrolled the dozen of decent suggestions done even on this forum in order to achieve a decent balance/fun ratio, they didn't, meanwhile they produced this abortion

Example:

Great! Shelter has a 1 second casting time but it still dies within 5 seconds, costs 25 energy and has a 45 seconds recharge time.
Why pug A should take a spirit spammer ritualist instead of a paragon? Given the paragon does protect the party in a more efficient way, the protection is almost permanent, and it's generally less vulnerable.

Example B:
Ritualist with attacking spirits and Elementalist or AoE mesmer, or a SS necro. Why should a PUG take the ritualsit when the ELE, the mesmer and the SS necro deal damage faster, better, and without any condition to be met (the ritualist spirits must be up, target the correct foe)

Given that current pugs are all SF/ROJ/COP, even if the pve meta shifted ritualist would still have to fight this problem, their inefficiency compared to other classes.

In order to solve this, ritualists switched to hybrids, they didn't excel at anything but they could heal/protect/deal damage on the same bar, the nerfs and the last update made this way less viable, ritualists are now struck with spirits wich like I said are less useful than specialized roles.

ajc2123 · Jun 19, 2009, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keira Nightgale

You're a mesmer. Try to play a rit for 2 years, experience the majority of the contents and titles while customizing same rare items to suddenly stop playing the class because A-net decided ritualists are not worth having, or because some 2 years old GvG balances done because of a now deleted mechanic were not regressed.

Wow 300hp every 10 seconds, useful especially when a paragon reduces 80% of the damage and an ele can push out consistent heals without recoil or when a monk can do prot as well, and each of the aforementioned can assolve a subfuction as well.

First of all, double posts are silly.

Secondly, Just because I play a Mesmer more than my other characters doesn't mean I don't seriously play the others. I got enough slots just so I could Play them all and see what their ups and downs were, get a feel of what was wanted.

I was an avid promoter of buffing Ritualists because they were severly underpowered, but I kept playing mine anyways. Why? Because it was fun. I don't let a class's effectiveness affect how I play my game.

As for Imbagons, I play H/H, so when Im not on my P, theres no chance of even having one. When I play my Rt, a 300 health every 10 seconds for only 10 energy (and perhaps GAIN energy+health with certain spells) is a great combo.

You mentioned I play mesmer. Well I do, and do you even remember how long people said "Mesmers suck in PvE, go away" etc etc? (before Cryway etc) So Don't think I dont know how it feels to play an unwanted class.

Have you ever tried Summon spirits + Signet of Ghostly might? You put down some serious DPS while being able to protect your little dudes from AoE spells. And I did this BEFORE the buff. Now its even better.

Einherj3r · Jun 19, 2009, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I think you guys are overreacting.

Spirits are stronger. You got new skills to take more mileage of spirits.

Yeah, Channeling/Resto spirits are probably weaker now, but there are new opportunities.

Armor of unfeeling might make some of the defensive spirits worth a second look too.

For ages people complained how spawning power is so weak.

Now they have a skill that makes 3 spirits ever 10 seconds, turning stuff like boon of creation and gift of spirits in healing and energy management bombs.

Who cares about OoS when you can get billions of energy every 10 seconds + damage?

Weapons work better for Rits than X/Rt due to Spawning power.

You just have to forget the days of Resto/Channel hybrids.

Now it seems to be Spirits + something.

I can be careless about spirits now... in PvE.
Not that I WANT to be careless about spirits. I WANT my spirits to be useful AND vulnerable. Don't turn them into RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing PvE skills.
Nobody is even arguing that Rits didn't get stronger in this update. They just aren't really more fun to play now because the fundamental changes were quite uninspired. On the contrary, they feel like quite a mindless class now.

Keira Nightgale · Jun 19, 2009, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I THINK that Ritualists were supposed to be about SPIRITS?

They buffed us (I'm on my Rit right now) and you are complaining? Jesus Christ.

Your vision of the class is anchored to the late 2006, spirits were actually good back then. As of now they suck, revolving a class around a flawed and nerfed mechanic is no good.

Spirits can either be overpowered or suck. There is no shade of gray, in a pve split I would have liked spirits to be overpowered, A-net doesn't. Then again someone could have been happy to play the hybrid approach in pve/pvp but they nerfed even this option.

Keira Nightgale · Jun 19, 2009, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

First of all, double posts are silly.

Secondly, Just because I play a Mesmer more than my other characters doesn't mean I don't seriously play the others. I got enough slots just so I could Play them all and see what their ups and downs were, get a feel of what was wanted.

I was an avid promoter of buffing Ritualists because they were severly underpowered, but I kept playing mine anyways. Why? Because it was fun. I don't let a class's effectiveness affect how I play my game.

As for Imbagons, I play H/H, so when Im not on my P, theres no chance of even having one. When I play my Rt, a 300 health every 10 seconds for only 10 energy (and perhaps GAIN energy+health with certain spells) is a great combo.

You mentioned I play mesmer. Well I do, and do you even remember how long people said "Mesmers suck in PvE, go away" etc etc? (before Cryway etc) So Don't think I dont know how it feels to play an unwanted class.

Have you ever tried Summon spirits + Signet of Ghostly might? You put down some serious DPS while being able to protect your little dudes from AoE spells. And I did this BEFORE the buff. Now its even better.

Simple facts, when people said mesmer suck in pve they weren't fully right.
Sure, domination used to be terrible in pve, usually you don't need to diversion a monk in pve because by the time it takes effect the mob will be dead. But mesmers had the fair advantage of

A having a primary that actually does something
B having useful skills
C Being Izzy's fetish, they were given some fun pve only skills
D Always having a role in every form of pvp

When a PUGGER says Ritualists do suck he's actually right

A Their primary sucks
B Most of their skills are useless or nerfed to oblivion
C Their Pve only skills are subpar
D Their role in pvp is nil
E Their special feat (spirits) is a malus rather than a bonus

With a mesmer you can go fast casting ele, play domination, play any kind of gimmick,COP, Condition spreading, interrupt on nasty missions, VOR, fast casting signet.
With a ritualist you don't have this advantage, you either play hybrid or spirits, since spirits suck you were forced to play hybrid or some gimmick (spirits strenght).
Now enter the mentality of the average pugger:

Defensive spirit spam >>>> Paragon is better
Healer >>>>> Monks are better
Offensive Spirits>>>> If you want damage you go ele, necro, mesmer, or add another melee
Hybrid>>>> They are not wanted, if you want a defensive/damage hybrid you either run a Necro, a Renewal Ele, a Motivation Paragon, a smiter Monk.

Anet simply had to make ritualist skills more viable, reducing casting time is a good step but it's like curing skin disease when the guy in front of you is in a bloody pulp, fix the necessary things, then you do the accessory, buffs are not done by buffing an attribute line while nerfing the class as a whole.
Again this update might be just a step, I got the feeling this is going to be the only answer we Ritualist and Paragon players will have (at least paragon fixes were something decent)

shinslw · Jun 19, 2009, 01:04 PM // 13:04

I have to agree with Keira Nightgale and Einherj3r. We are not really complaining. Just that I feel that it is abit mindless now for rit class. To those who haven really played your rit and trying to max all of your rit's titles over the last few years. LOL you may see how much hybrid classes you are using. My spirits still vapourises in HM. Well at least if like Keira Nightgale mentioned using assassin's promise I get a instant recharge instead of ritual lord.

I find that the overall picture of skills complementing is still not enough. I wonder how many people used Spirit Channeling Where you could have other means of regening your energy. :/ Enchantment and be stripped

~

Spirit Channeling
(Elite Enchantment Spell. (10 seconds.) You have +1...5...6 Energy regeneration. You have -5 Health degeneration. End effect: you are healed for 100 if you are within earshot of a spirit. )

I will just stick with my old discordway while vanquishing meanwhile

~

Angel Killuminati · Jun 19, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keira Nightgale

Bro, have you tested spirits in pve, they Example:

Great! Shelter has a 1 second casting time but it still dies within 5 seconds, costs 25 energy and has a 45 seconds recharge time.
Why pug A should take a spirit spammer ritualist instead of a paragon? Given the paragon does protect the party in a more efficient way, the protection is almost permanent, and it's generally less vulnerable.

Ritual Lord anyone?

Keira Nightgale · Jun 19, 2009, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinslw

I have to agree with Keira Nightgale and Einherj3r. We are not really complaining. Just that I feel that it is abit mindless now for rit class. To those who haven really played your rit and trying to max all of your rit's titles over the last few years. LOL you may see how much hybrid classes you are using. My spirits still vapourises in HM. Well at least if like Keira Nightgale mentioned using assassin's promise I get a instant recharge instead of ritual lord.

I find that the overall picture of skills complementing is still not enough. I wonder how many people used Spirit Channeling Where you could have other means of regening your energy. :/ Enchantment and be stripped

~

Spirit Channeling
(Elite Enchantment Spell. (10 seconds.) You have +1...5...6 Energy regeneration. You have -5 Health degeneration. End effect: you are healed for 100 if you are within earshot of a spirit. )

I will just stick with my old discordway while vanquishing meanwhile

~

Even ether prodigy (energy storage) is superior to spirit channeling.

Improvavel · Jun 19, 2009, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keira Nightgale

Example:

Great! Shelter has a 1 second casting time but it still dies within 5 seconds, costs 25 energy and has a 45 seconds recharge time.
Why pug A should take a spirit spammer ritualist instead of a paragon? Given the paragon does protect the party in a more efficient way, the protection is almost permanent, and it's generally less vulnerable.

Example B:
Ritualist with attacking spirits and Elementalist or AoE mesmer, or a SS necro. Why should a PUG take the ritualsit when the ELE, the mesmer and the SS necro deal damage faster, better, and without any condition to be met (the ritualist spirits must be up, target the correct foe)

In order to solve this, ritualists switched to hybrids, they didn't excel at anything but they could heal/protect/deal damage on the same bar, the nerfs and the last update made this way less viable, ritualists are now struck with spirits wich like I said are less useful than specialized roles.

Take Signet of spirits - 3 offensive spirits.

Add boon of creation and spirits gift - energy management, party heal and condition removal.

Add Feast of Souls - more party emergency party heal.

Add painful bond - transform your spirits in to killing machines.

Add ancestors rage and splinter weapon - old staples.

1 slot for rez. 1 slot for something else.

Ok. Shelter only got +60 health.

But what about displacement and union?

Combo that with armor of unfeeling and they last quite more.

And of course u can still combo it with signet of spirits for decent damage and some heal and whatnot from spawning.

So, just get over it.

It is about spirits now, and if some are somewhat weak others just became better and very useful.

Spawning + channeling seems quite hot atm.

Cebe · Jun 19, 2009, 01:31 PM // 13:31

As I see it, many people playing Ritualist used a Channeling-Restoration hybrid build before the update. These sort of builds really haven't been affected like some people seem to claim they have been. If anything, they've been made more efficient - now Life doesn't take three seconds to cast any more. So, a second or two have been shaved off some of the weapon spells, it's not really build breaking stuff.

Then, on top of that, others seem to be complaining about the buffs to spirits. They are buffs, regardless of how much more useful spirits might be now. I know I'd rather have Professor Gai use a Shelter that took 1 second to cast than one that took 5 seconds to cast.

If you don't want to use spirits, or invite a spirit spammer into your team, it's not like anyone's holding a mantid pincer to your head forcing you to.

Einherj3r · Jun 19, 2009, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Take Signet of spirits - 3 offensive spirits.

Add boon of creation and spirits gift - energy management, party heal and condition removal.

Add Feast of Souls - more party emergency party heal.

Add painful bond - transform your spirits in to killing machines.

Add ancestors rage and splinter weapon - old staples.

1 slot for rez. 1 slot for something else.

Ok. Shelter only got +60 health.

But what about displacement and union?

Combo that with armor of unfeeling and they last quite more.

And of course u can still combo it with signet of spirits for decent damage and some heal and whatnot from spawning.

So, just get over it.

It is about spirits now, and if some are somewhat weak others just became better and very useful.

Spawning + channeling seems quite hot atm.

Nobody asked for LOLWUT-spirit spam in PvE. It's boring. It always was boring. The hybrid builds are what is fun about the Ritualist. SOME spirits, SOME weapon spells, SOME item spells, SOME heals, SOME damage. Interchange them depending on the area. This update did nothing but evoke a few gimmicky spam builds and allow Ritualists to spirit spam at a ridiculous speed in PvE. BORING.

Lux Aeterna · Jun 19, 2009, 01:39 PM // 13:39

I got 10 wins in RA with a rit healer tonight.

Rit healers can definitely compare with a monk and it seems like the buff to their weapon spells will help quite a bit.

Wbrkr · Jun 19, 2009, 01:45 PM // 13:45

They could of atleast made the spirits effect only party members its laughable to watch shelter die instantly before its coming out of the ground animation even completes because the minions got hit by cyclone axe or a aoe spell. Even with that it will only last 3-5 seconds which doesnt justify the 25energy/45recharge for what is basically an unstrippable prot spirit.
The defensive spirits just dont scale well with hardmode and anet seem to be ignoring that. Everything is casting and attacking superfast so basic way the spirits work is broken.
The damage spirits didnt particularly need a buff they just needed their targeting fixed, attacking a random target and sometimes not attacking anything at all/attacking obstructed is quite poor and i still dont think overall the damage comes close to spirits strength spear/bow.

Im still happy with my rit and use a xinraes weapon heal build or spear spirits strength fine in HM this update however has not made any spirit builds viable to me still imo.

Keira Nightgale · Jun 19, 2009, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Take Signet of spirits - 3 offensive spirits.

Add boon of creation and spirits gift - energy management, party heal and condition removal.

Add Feast of Souls - more party emergency party heal.

Add painful bond - transform your spirits in to killing machines.

Add ancestors rage and splinter weapon - old staples.

1 slot for rez. 1 slot for something else.

Ok. Shelter only got +60 health.

But what about displacement and union?

Combo that with armor of unfeeling and they last quite more.

And of course u can still combo it with signet of spirits for decent damage and some heal and whatnot from spawning.

So, just get over it.

It is about spirits now, and if some are somewhat weak others just became better and very useful.

Spawning + channeling seems quite hot atm.

so 1 elite wasted for 3 spirits with a single targed mediocre DPS
Boon of creation and spirit gift >>>> wasting points on an useless primary, costy enchantments with a small radius effect, I dare you to try that
Add Feast of Souls >>> wich is shit
Add painful bond >>>> you should really read the skill descriptions
Add ancestors rage and splinter weapon >>>> the only decent skills you mentioned
shelter and union do not apply on spirits therefore armor of unfeeling effect is mediocre at best, they will last 1 second more. At this point why should't I roll a paragon or an ele

No offense, but your idea sounds inefficient and boring, even aura of the lich is better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cebe

As I see it, many people playing Ritualist used a Channeling-Restoration hybrid build before the update. These sort of builds really haven't been affected like some people seem to claim they have been. If anything, they've been made more efficient - now Life doesn't take three seconds to cast any more. So, a second or two have been shaved off some of the weapon spells, it's not really build breaking stuff.

Then, on top of that, others seem to be complaining about the buffs to spirits. They are buffs, regardless of how much more useful spirits might be now. I know I'd rather have Professor Gai use a Shelter that took 1 second to cast than one that took 5 seconds to cast.

If you don't want to use spirits, or invite a spirit spammer into your team, it's not like anyone's holding a mantid pincer to your head forcing you to.

BUFF eh?

Before: 15-45 seconds and 2% increase in duration. At Spawning skill level 12: 18.6 and 55.8
Now: 10-40 seconds and 4% increase in duration. At Spawning skill level 12: 14.8 and 59.2

The same for Weapon of Shadow:
Before: 4-10 seconds -> 4.76 and 12.4 seconds
Now: 3-8 seconds -> 4.44 and 11.84 seconds

Vital Weapon:
Before: 5-35 seconds -> 6.2 and 43.4 seconds
Now: 5-30 seconds -> 7.4 and 44.4 seconds

Quote from Kashrlyyk

Posts Merged by Cebe: Please use the rather than double posting!

Einherj3r · Jun 19, 2009, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

I got 10 wins in RA with a rit healer tonight.

Rit healers can definitely compare with a monk and it seems like the buff to their weapon spells will help quite a bit.

I got 10 wins in RA with the Paladin pre-con as well.

Lhim · Jun 19, 2009, 02:08 PM // 14:08

At first glance it would seem a buff to Rits, but it really isn't.

Sure, you can put down spirits down quite fast, but the major buff was to offensive spirits....which weren't really a problem with summon spirits en signet of ghostly might.

For the rest, we have to invest into spawning power to get the same effect for our weapon spells, seems more like a nerf to me. You could say it's a buff, because x/rts are not so efficient anymore. But I view it more as a nerf to weapon spells in general. Only difference is that Rts/x are slightly less nerfed than x/Rts in terms of weapon spell duration it would seem. I say it would seem, because in PvE other classes have access to absurd energy management (soul reaping, ether renewal), so in the end it's not a problem at all for them.

Joseph Spiritmaster · Jun 19, 2009, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

its a buff for rits, don't know how people can't see that

yeah my rit is primary, i read the updates and 3 build ideas popped into head

(ie, redux of RitLord --> been testing, working great)

If you dont like the update, oh well, its how ANet wanted to do. Rits still are a class that requires some thought when making builds... Sorry to those who dont understand that concept.

Tenebrae · Jun 19, 2009, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Seems to me that there are so many Elementalists "i want damage nuke nuke nuke damage" in disguise. Update sux huh ? i guess if you wanna btch about something you will always find a reason .... go with it or .... maybe do something instead of losing time , delete your rits, prob solved.

Cebe · Jun 19, 2009, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keira Nightgale

BUFF eh?

Yes. Buff to spirits. I believe that was my original point.

There's no need for you to reel off a list of Weapon Spell nerfs to prove a point I wasn't trying to make.

On the Weapon Spell topic, yes, I acknowledge they took a hit, and yes, maybe it's a Sly way of trying to force people into using Spawning Power. If it bothers people that much then I guess they will stop playing Ritualist. So what? Balance shouldn't just be about giving skills "Moar Powah". Let this be a lesson to those who get so firmly attached to their "uber builds" they lose the drive and creativity to work around the changes.

DarkNecrid · Jun 19, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikkelet

I for once, think that the rit is good now. Altho I doupt Signet of Creation o__O

Yeah Signet of Creation is out there, however at this current time it is bugged and affects spells, making it a free + zero drawback + affects multiple spells version of Glyph of Sacrifice.