Curse

Default137 · Feb 27, 2010, 08:38 AM // 08:38

What am I missing here?

I'm the kind of person that likes to figure out what all my skills do, and every situation they can be used in, no matter how crappy, I like doing this because its fun, and because it lets me adapt quickly to nerfs and changes, as I can combine things before many people even realize those two things can go together.

However I cannot for the life of me find a use for Agony.

Its a super low damage spell that kills itself as it goes, and in a fight against a large group of enemies, it will barely get off more then two ticks before it goes down, even if you try keeping it alive with two heroes using Spirit Boon Strike, and constantly Summon Spirits, you still won't be able to get more then three or four ticks from it.

So what purpose does it serve as a skill? What does Agony work well with, what makes it useful, I REALLY want to use Agony, but...eh.

-Makai- · Feb 27, 2010, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Agony's damage is fine. Bump Spawning Power for more survivability.

Mikkelet · Feb 27, 2010, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Agony in pve sucks, as the -5 pips for a few secs wont do anything, but it's pure gold in RA and other small arenas!

Tenebrae · Feb 27, 2010, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikkelet

Agony in pve sucks, as the -5 pips for a few secs wont do anything, but it's pure gold in RA and other small arenas!

LOL . Seriously , LOL .

Its 10 armor ignoring damage per second to ALL FOES on Range , a spirit that can be healed with summon spirits and spirit boon strike wich has about 350 hp ( SP @ 12 ) . If you dont see anything good here , you should delete your ritualist , seriously.

Even funnier with Ritual Lord or Soul Twisting or precasting it around 10 sec before the battle. You can say the skill is not the omfgwtfpwn everything but hell , is not bad ..... not bad at all.

Kosman · Feb 27, 2010, 12:36 PM // 12:36

As what Tenebrae said, Agony is just fine...

spirit of defeat · Feb 27, 2010, 12:40 PM // 12:40

agony has a larger range then destruction. If only that it's quite potent.

BrettM · Feb 27, 2010, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Agony also works nicely if you're using Spirit's Gift. Summon Agony first, let it get off a tick or two, then start summoning the other spirits. Each summon provides a burst of healing to Agony to help keep it going, not to mention the healing to the rest of the team, including minions.

Agony still won't last forever, particularly against large groups, but I find the damage quite worthwhile. It's also nice to lay in front of the other spirits when setting up a spirit trap on a patrol route or approach to a point defense. You know the trap is sprung when all the yellow -10s start floating up, and Agony attracts the aggro while the other spirits start slamming away. The spirits can often hold an approach by themselves for quite a while as the team works on other groups.

Default137 · Mar 01, 2010, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

LOL . Seriously , LOL .

Its 10 armor ignoring damage per second to ALL FOES on Range , a spirit that can be healed with summon spirits and spirit boon strike wich has about 350 hp ( SP @ 12 ) . If you dont see anything good here , you should delete your ritualist , seriously.

Even funnier with Ritual Lord or Soul Twisting or precasting it around 10 sec before the battle. You can say the skill is not the omfgwtfpwn everything but hell , is not bad ..... not bad at all.

It also takes ten damage for each enemy in range every second, which kind of negates its potential by a ton.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if I was going to use Agony, I'd take it out when I was facing more then one enemy, because thats what its supposed to be good at, right? Problem is, if I throw it out when facing, oh lets say 5 enemies, it takes 50 damage per tic, which means even at full Spawning Power ( it only has 300 health at max ), I will get uh, 6 tics.

So in the most optimal situation I can think of for it, it can do 60 damage to everything before dying, which is about the same as 2 hits from Bloodsong, which is nothing in terms of damage. And thats its MOST optimal situation, most groups are 8+, meaning it will actually be taking 80-100 damage per tic itself if you actually try to use it with what its supposed to be taken for, and will barely get off more then 3-4 tics.

I just tested it outside Rata Sum against Raptors, it died after 3 tics, even with me spamming Summon Spirits everytime it came up, as well as slotting Spirit Boon Strike on me, Razah, and Xandra, that does not strike me as useful in any way shape or form, as it means it only managed to put out 30 damage before finally dying itself. No offense, but I should not have to build my entire skillbar around keeping one mediocre damage Spirit alive, and even if I try doing that, it barely does more then 50 damage to everything before going down itself.

I could see if was more of a bomb type Spirit, or could actually be somewhat maintained, but it can't, it has one goal, and that is to die quickly and put out next to nothing in terms of DPS, it can't even be used to bring things down to 90% for various offensive skills based on health percentage, because Ancestors Rage can handle that ten times better, as it is cheaper AND has a faster recharge, as well as doing more AoE damage.

However Mikkelet was somewhat right, it does have a minor place in Arenas, due to the extra damage it puts on Monks, the fact most players have far less HP then mobs, and the smaller enemy group size, however its still a hard fit, and could really use a few changes to make it more viable, as it just doesn't seem that amazing even for that situation.

spirit of defeat · Mar 01, 2010, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Default137

It also takes ten damage for each enemy in range every second, which kind of negates its potential by a ton.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if I was going to use Agony, I'd take it out when I was facing more then one enemy, because thats what its supposed to be good at, right? Problem is, if I throw it out when facing, oh lets say 5 enemies, it takes 50 damage per tic, which means even at full Spawning Power ( it only has 300 health at max ), I will get uh, 6 tics.

So in the most optimal situation I can think of for it, it can do 60 damage to everything before dying, which is about the same as 2 hits from Bloodsong, which is nothing in terms of damage. And thats its MOST optimal situation, most groups are 8+, meaning it will actually be taking 80-100 damage per tic itself if you actually try to use it with what its supposed to be taken for, and will barely get off more then 3-4 tics.

I just tested it outside Rata Sum against Raptors, it died after 3 tics, even with me spamming Summon Spirits everytime it came up, as well as slotting Spirit Boon Strike on me, Razah, and Xandra, that does not strike me as useful in any way shape or form, as it means it only managed to put out 30 damage before finally dying itself. No offense, but I should not have to build my entire skillbar around keeping one mediocre damage Spirit alive, and even if I try doing that, it barely does more then 50 damage to everything before going down itself.

I could see if was more of a bomb type Spirit, or could actually be somewhat maintained, but it can't, it has one goal, and that is to die quickly and put out next to nothing in terms of DPS, it can't even be used to bring things down to 90% for various offensive skills based on health percentage, because Ancestors Rage can handle that ten times better, as it is cheaper AND has a faster recharge, as well as doing more AoE damage.

However Mikkelet was somewhat right, it does have a minor place in Arenas, due to the extra damage it puts on Monks, the fact most players have far less HP then mobs, and the smaller enemy group size, however its still a hard fit, and could really use a few changes to make it more viable, as it just doesn't seem that amazing even for that situation.

Nobody said it was perfect, I'd rather take agony then destruction if only because of it's range. And nobody is gonna take it as the primary damage, it's support and it's still 300 damage.

I fit it into my bar is I have room left, not building around it...

Default137 · Mar 01, 2010, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

Nobody said it was perfect, I'd rather take agony then destruction if only because of it's range. And nobody is gonna take it as the primary damage, it's support and it's still 300 damage.

I fit it into my bar is I have room left, not building around it...

Well, the problem is, its not even support.

Lets look at this from an AoE damage standpoint, shall we?

Ok, lets assume we are facing 8 mobs, thats a fair average, at least from my last several fights, most groups you face in this game are about 6-8 enemies, now, considering we have full Spawning Power, and full Channeling, it will last for roughly 3-4 tics at max. So, a fully boosted Agony, with no support against an average group will only do about 30 damage to an individual mob, which as AoEs go, is not exactly a good sell, but, lets take a look at what the other Rit AoEs offer.

Lets say we take Ancestors Rage, first off, it has less cost, as well as a shorter cooldown, meaning you can use it more often, my average hit with a fully built AR is about 80-90, meaning I have a much easier spammed AoE that can give near DOUBLE the damage of Agony for a 5e less. Next, lets look at Destruction, at its best, it can do 150 damage, however, when combined with Rupture Soul can easily put out a really nice 200+ AoE spike, which is amazing and can drop almost any group in this game down to 50% with one application, its a huge combo, however it takes two spells.

So, why would one take Agony? It will either do 30 damage, or if I bring another skill MAYBE 40 damage to each mob I'm fighting, and still be dead long before its timer is up, leaving me one skill less. Why would I bring SBS to keep up Agony, when I could just take Destruction and Rupture Soul? Or heck, just drop the whole bring two skills thing, and just bring Ancestors Rage, and then slot it on Xandra and Razah to, as they seem to be god at spamming it at optimal times.

FoxBat · Mar 01, 2010, 09:22 AM // 09:22

As above. Since when did degen become good in PvE? We might as well argue that ether nightmare is playable.

MaaKotka · Mar 01, 2010, 11:34 AM // 11:34

You could consider it as a spell that deals 300ish damage for 10 energy, which isn't that bad, but it isn't anything spectacular either. 30s recharge pretty much kills this skill.

Tenebrae · Mar 01, 2010, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Default137

It also takes ten damage for each enemy in range every second, which kind of negates its potential by a ton.

If it damages 10 to ALL FOES in range and only lose 10 it would be bloody overpowered ... even with 5 foes. It would deal 5x240-350hp for just using a skill , sit and watch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Default137

Problem is, if I throw it out when facing, oh lets say 5 enemies, it takes 50 damage per tic, which means even at full Spawning Power ( it only has 300 health at max ), I will get uh, 6 tics.

I dont know where did you get that but thats not true, SP 12 Chan 15 = 355hp. With Rit lord at those lvls spirit has 414 HP and recharges in 15 secs. 414+ armor ignoring damage ( yes PLUS because you can heal that spirit with ease ) every 5 secs or less ( with precasting ) .... dude , is not bad at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Default137

So in the most optimal situation I can think of for it, it can do 60 damage to everything before dying, which is about the same as 2 hits from Bloodsong, which is nothing in terms of damage. And thats its MOST optimal situation, most groups are 8+, meaning it will actually be taking 80-100 damage per tic itself if you actually try to use it with what its supposed to be taken for, and will barely get off more then 3-4 tics.

2 Hits from Bloodsong to EVERY foe in the area , bloodsong does that in about 7x or more time than Agony. Also comparing any offensive spirit with the one that has the best , armor ignoring , life stealing damage and survavility is useless .... as you will be taking it too if Chan 15.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Default137

I just tested it outside Rata Sum against Raptors,

Stop right there .
First :Bad option , thats not a regular zone where you can do a test.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Default137

it died after 3 tics, even with me spamming Summon Spirits everytime it came up, as well as slotting Spirit Boon Strike on me, Razah, and Xandra,

Second :Spirit boon only works on YOUR spirits , using it on a hero to heal YOUR spirit is useless , doesnt work , please read skill description.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Default137

it only managed to put out 30 damage before finally dying itself. No offense, but I should not have to build my entire skillbar around keeping one mediocre damage Spirit alive, and even if I try doing that, it barely does more then 50 damage to everything before going down itself.

Third : Its 300+ not 30.
Fourth : 2 skills ( Spirit boon and Summon Spirits ) , one of them will be in your bar anyway =\= entire skill bar.
Fifth : I never said that AoE armor ignoring damage > spiking the hell out of a target in 3 sec.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Default137

it can't even be used to bring things down to 90% for various offensive skills based on health percentage, because Ancestors Rage can handle that ten times better, as it is cheaper AND has a faster recharge, as well as doing more AoE damage.

It does bring down some foes under 90% and thats a fact. Ancestors Rage does 1/3 of its damage and recharges 3x faster , is balanced. Also doesnt DAMAGE your target and its range is adjacent so is 10x easier to get 400+dmg from agony than 400+ damage from Ancestor rage. If you like it , use it , "problem" solved.

So once again , i proved that is not a "superlow damage spell" , it has "for the life of me" a use , and work well when you know what you are doing. Like i said before ( kinda think ppl dont read ) , is not the "omfgwtfpwn kills everything and it rox" type of skill but is not bad ...... not bad at all.

PS: If you like so much spiking , spirits are "slow" , try AP caller + 2 or 3 N Discords . Dont stay in the middle

.

Hugh Manatee · Mar 01, 2010, 12:23 PM // 12:23

In a vacuum it sucks, but if you do have stuff that's maxed out the degen of a foe(burning, hexes ect), putting this, as well as whatever else you can on top of it is where it gets good. It's AoE that can't be run from.

Iuris · Mar 01, 2010, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Never used the spirit, but while reading the spirit description, I got the impression that it's essentially 300 damage total (=spirit's life) spread over all enemies around you. Therefore, its problem is that it is economically a single target effect spread over multiple targets - 5 foes, 60 damage per foe per casting.

Am I reading it right?

Does armor of unfeeling increase the life span?

BrettM · Mar 01, 2010, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

Does armor of unfeeling increase the life span?

I'm reasonably sure AoU only reduces the damage it takes from external sources, not from the damage it does to itself.

MasterSasori · Mar 01, 2010, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Agony with high Spawning and Channeling does quite a bit of damage before it kicks the bucket. It's not the best spirit around, but it's worth consideration on your bar. As stated, it's AoE that affects everything in the area. If you're having trouble with the survivability, Spirit's gift helps prolong its survival for another one or two ticks per spirit and so is casting it before battle and summon spirit it as you move along the map. In large groups, it kills faster than any spirit albeit its duration is short. However with the new Rit Lord and Soul Twisting, Agony should be easy to upkeep and you can definitely see its use there.

I run 16 channeling and 12-13 spawning on my rit as well as an almost maxed summon spirits. It survives pretty well if you keep it safe, cast beforehand, and spam summon spirit around.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 01, 2010, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

I'm reasonably sure AoU only reduces the damage it takes from external sources, not from the damage it does to itself.

AoU also works on Shelter, Displacement, and Union, and they all do damage to themselves... So Yes, I assume that it does reduce the damage from Agony As well.

Back on topic though, Agony is good for pressure. It's pretty sub-par on it's own, but say you use it, have max degen on all foes in range... It adds up.

However since pressure builds suck in PvE, Agony sucks as well.

spirit of defeat · Mar 01, 2010, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

AoU also works on Shelter, Displacement, and Union, and they all do damage to themselves... So Yes, I assume that it does reduce the damage from Agony As well.

Back on topic though, Agony is good for pressure. It's pretty sub-par on it's own, but say you use it, have max degen on all foes in range... It adds up.

However since pressure builds suck in PvE, Agony sucks as well.

I tested I AoU works on agony and it doesn't.