Curse

Grammar · Jan 26, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

No one caught my crappy math apparently

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

So Penetrating Attack + hornbow + sundering (when it specs) = 45% AP

Whoops. 20% + 10% + 20% = 50% (not 45%)
I think I only added 5% for the hornbow instead of 10% for some strange reason.

As for the bow debate:

- The best bow in PvE is a flatbow under Read the Wind (true 100% of the time, zero debate).
- The worst bow in PvE is a flatbow not under Read the Wind (funny how that works, huh?).
- The best bow in PvE if you're not using Read the Wind is completely subjective and depends on build (personally, I'd say recurve bow).
- The best bow in PvP (assuming you're running Apply Poison, which pretty much everyone does) is either a hornbow or recurve bow, depending on what you're trying to do.
- The worst bow in PvP (assuming you're running Apply Poison, which pretty much everyone does) is a flatbow because you're not using Read the Wind.

And there you have it.

On a side note, there are still some people out there who don't know how Read the Wind works, so let me explain.
Read the Wind speeds up your arrows by giving them a set speed, regardless of bow. A flatbow under RtW has the exact same arrow speed as a recurve bow under RtW. Therefore, arrow speed is irrelevant in the "which bow to use" debate if you use RtW. And thats why, if you use RtW, the flatbow is indisputably the best bow in PvE 100% of the time. It's tops in EVERY category: range, refire rate, speed (under RtW), and damage (the faster refire rate gives it higher damage over time than the much slower hornbow).

EDIT: I should probably say 99% of the time instead of 100%, in the event that RtW gets interrupted. It's always a good idea to have a backup recurve bow handy in case that happens, because you don't want to get stuck with nothing but a flatbow without RtW.

Bloodied Blade · Jan 26, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Yeah...they did when people discovered [skill]distracting shot[/skill] and [skill]savage shot[/skill]

I still remember when I got to be good at interrupting... Damn that was fun (and you can just see the other player cursing behind their monitor at you).

Grammar · Jan 26, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

The new buffs have definitely grown on me.

I replaced my PvE Burning Arrow build with this:
[skill]Read the Wind[/skill][skill]Prepared Shot[/skill][skill]Penetrating Attack[/skill][skill]Sundering Attack[/skill][skill]Savage Shot[/skill][skill]Distracting Shot[/skill][skill]Restful Breeze[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Equipment: Vamp flatbow
16 Marksmanship (or 14/15 depending on rune)
13 Expertise
3 Healing

-This out-damages the Burning Arrow build I had been using, and still leaves 2 slots for interrupts as well as my favorite self-heal.

-DPS at master of damage was 52 after going the entire duration of the test. It's much higher if I stop the test early, obviously, but I like to consider a build's longevity when looking at DPS.
-Prepared Shot is obviously a must; it allows for almost continuous spamming of PA and SA, with only occasional breaks if the battle gets really long or you spend a lot of energy on interrupts.
-This definitely works best with a flatbow. I tried a hornbow, just for kicks, but its refire rate syncs up horribly bad with PA+SA spam, while a flatbow syncs up perfectly. A flatbow is fast enough to squeeze in an arrow between PA+SA combos while spamming the combo on recharge, which is a must for proper use of Prepared Shot inbetween combos, as well as added damage. Hornbows cannot do this, and therefore do not take advantage of PA and SA's buffs. If the buffs can't net you an added arrow between PA+SA combos, then the combo is exactly the same as it was before the buff.

Combo looks like this:
PA --> SA --> Prepared --> PA --> SA --> attack --> repeat from beginning

EDIT: I just looked back at the OP and realized that this is pretty much the exact same build that he posted, lol.

Proud Elitist · Jan 27, 2008, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

The new buffs have definitely grown on me.

I replaced my PvE Burning Arrow build with this:
[skill]Read the Wind[/skill][skill]Prepared Shot[/skill][skill]Penetrating Attack[/skill][skill]Sundering Attack[/skill][skill]Savage Shot[/skill][skill]Distracting Shot[/skill][skill]Restful Breeze[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Equipment: Vamp flatbow
16 Marksmanship (or 14/15 depending on rune)
13 Expertise
3 Healing

-This out-damages the Burning Arrow build I had been using, and still leaves 2 slots for interrupts as well as my favorite self-heal.

-DPS at master of damage was 52 after going the entire duration of the test. It's much higher if I stop the test early, obviously, but I like to consider a build's longevity when looking at DPS.
-Prepared Shot is obviously a must; it allows for almost continuous spamming of PA and SA, with only occasional breaks if the battle gets really long or you spend a lot of energy on interrupts.
-This definitely works best with a flatbow. I tried a hornbow, just for kicks, but its refire rate syncs up horribly bad with PA+SA spam, while a flatbow syncs up perfectly. A flatbow is fast enough to squeeze in an arrow between PA+SA combos while spamming the combo on recharge, which is a must for proper use of Prepared Shot inbetween combos, as well as added damage. Hornbows cannot do this, and therefore do not take advantage of PA and SA's buffs. If the buffs can't net you an added arrow between PA+SA combos, then the combo is exactly the same as it was before the buff.

Combo looks like this:
PA --> SA --> Prepared --> PA --> SA --> attack --> repeat from beginning

EDIT: I just looked back at the OP and realized that this is pretty much the exact same build that he posted, lol.

Aww, how cute.

Marverick · Jan 27, 2008, 03:36 AM // 03:36

I will reiterate this - if you're running Prepared Shot, Concussion Shot > Savage Shot.

Proud Elitist · Jan 27, 2008, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

I will reiterate this - if you're running Prepared Shot, Concussion Shot > Savage Shot.

Yep. Standard Prepared Shot build is:

Prepared Shot
Concussion Shot
Distracting Shot
Apply Poison
Natural Stride
Mending Touch
Troll Unguent
Resurrection Signet

It's a good build to practice with. It restricts the Ranger to conserve his D-Shot and allows Rangers to interrupt important spells like Guardian with Concussion Shot and screw the monk over. Overall, nothing in this build is truly spammable but deadly when used with skill.

Remember to have 13 in Expertise and 11 in Marksmanship. This allows the Ranger to get 7 energy from Prepared Shot instead of 6.

The unfortunate downside of this build is that it cannot play defensively as well as a Ranger with Savage Shot can.

Also, this all goes down the drain when Draw Conditions comes into play. However it gets the job done in RA; which most people play in here.

Amy Awien · Jan 27, 2008, 08:04 AM // 08:04

For these you could be running Expert Focus rather then Apply Poison or Read the Wind.

Long term DPS is not affected by this buff, energy limits your ability to increase firing frequency.

.Loki · Jan 27, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

bleh, almost every ranger i see in RA is running SA/PA now... -_- "
back to Magebane Shot/Burning Arrow

Pyro maniac · Jan 27, 2008, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proud Elitist

Any monk worth their weight can see a Ranger team spiking with, first, at least a 2 second attack (Flatbow) and react to it. So yes, any monk that knows what their doing can see a Ranger spike coming.

Frankly, if someone is a mediocre monk, all they would do is ether cast a prot spirit or an RoF + Guardian.

Not to mention the Ranger doesn't have the energy regen required to frequently spike (no pressure); Expertise plays well in the long run, but not in drastic energy fluctuations.

ranger spike is hornbow, it's not the point you see the spike coming. It's easy to spot. It's just hard to see the target since it's ranged. Only skills that help versus a spike is infuse/spirit bond

Proud Elitist · Jan 27, 2008, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

ranger spike is hornbow

Yes I know. Notice said, "at least" before I wrote Flatbow Attack Speed. Please pay more attention.

Quote:

It's easy to spot.

Why yes, yes it is.

Quote:

Only skills that help versus a spike is infuse/spirit bond

Generally speaking, yes.

Mr Pvper · Jan 27, 2008, 08:23 PM // 20:23

i found a pretty useful way to use sundering attack/ penetrating attack without the use of [card]Prepared Shot[/card].

Heres the build:
Marksman Wager
Sundering Attack
Penetrating Attack
Salvage Shot
Storm Djinn's Haste
Conjure Lightning
Favourable Winds
+ any other skill such as rez

12+3+1 Marksmanship
8+1 Expertise
10 Lightning

On a 60armor target in a equally leveled terrain area, its highest damage critical is 110-120. It's only drawback is that if an enemy blocks, u will lose energy atking that target unless u change to a nonblocking target. I believe that the 20% AP attacks stack to increase the conjure lightning dmg too.

Grammar · Jan 27, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

I will reiterate this - if you're running Prepared Shot, Concussion Shot > Savage Shot.

Ah yes, thanks for the reminder.

I should have mentioned that Concussion Shot and Savage Shot are interchangeable in that build. I'm always swapping back and forth between those two skills depending on area and team.

But keep in mind that the build I posted is for PvE, and dazed isn't always needed in PvE. So I wouldn't say Concussion Shot needs to be stapled there in place of Savage Shot. Like I said, they're interchangeable depending on area and team.
Also, since this is PvE, Mending Touch isn't needed if both monks have condition removers, and Natural Stride is flat out bad.

Scourgey · Jan 28, 2008, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

For these you could be running Expert Focus rather then Apply Poison or Read the Wind.

Long term DPS is not affected by this buff, energy limits your ability to increase firing frequency.

Amy has it right, if you want to spam penetrating + Sundering shot then you really want to use experts focus. An extra 10 damage per shot & energy reduction is very nice. For PvP I would definately use this, for PvE well anything works there.

Wakka · Jan 28, 2008, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

and Natural Stride is flat out bad.

Really really no.

Pyro maniac · Jan 28, 2008, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakka

Really really no.

he has got a point, natural stride is much more usefull in PvP then in PvE. You don't need a blocking stance for using cripshot or apply poison, and movement control is not that necessary.
Still a blocking stance for 180+ dmg hits is good ..

Wakka · Jan 28, 2008, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

he has got a point, natural stride is much more usefull in PvP then in PvE. You don't need a blocking stance for using cripshot or apply poison, and movement control is not that necessary.

When used right, NS can be a real saviour in Hard Mode, been working through the dungeon's recently and it really can help.

Would rather have my NS than 6 attack skills lol

Grammar · Jan 28, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakka

When used right, NS can be a real saviour in Hard Mode, been working through the dungeon's recently and it really can help.

Would rather have my NS than 6 attack skills lol

While good in PvP (dual purpose speed boost & block with low recharge), I just don't like this skill at all in PvE, not even in HM.
Why? Because the situation when you need to activate NS also happens to be the exact same situation when the monks need to throw a prot enchantment or two on you (RoF, Guardian, SoA, PS, Aegis, etc.).

Since there aren't things like running and splits and such going on in PvE, and the monks are always nearby you ready to prot you at a moment's notice, you really don't need NS.
Aegis chains, Guardian, and Ward Against Melee is all the blocking you'll ever need in PvE.

Tyla · Jan 28, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

Also, since this is PvE, Mending Touch isn't needed if both monks have condition removers, and Natural Stride is flat out bad.

Eh?
Henchmonks are usually retards, MT ftw.
Blocking is ftw, NatStride saves you lots.
NatStride is still an extremely powerful block in PvE and PvP, it's nowhere near bad.

Pyro maniac · Jan 28, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Eh?
Henchmonks are usually retards, MT ftw.
Blocking is ftw, NatStride saves you lots.
NatStride is still an extremely powerful block in PvE and PvP, it's nowhere near bad.

it is, nobody said it was redundant. However there are some other skills you bring as well.
It's not like you have to use natural stride to cover your cripshot

Grammar · Jan 29, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Eh?
Henchmonks are usually retards, MT ftw.
Blocking is ftw, NatStride saves you lots.
NatStride is still an extremely powerful block in PvE and PvP, it's nowhere near bad.

Actually, heroes/henchies will spam condition removers to their detriment.
For example, if there is a guy who's very low on health, and he happens to have a condition, and both dimiss/mend condition and WoH are recharged on the hero's bar, he'll cast dismiss/mend condition instead of WoH.
They heavily prioritize both condition and hex removers and will cast them on recharge without fail if conditions and hexes are present, even if there is nothing worth removing at all. It's a good thing when you need important conditions and hexes removed, but a bad thing when they waste all their time and energy removing irrelevant conditions and hexes. It's just one of those things you live with.

And again, about NS, it's ill-suited for the structure of PvE play, where the monks are always within easy casting range of you and are a split second away from protting you should you start taking damage, and things like Aegis chains and Ward Against Melee are the order of the day (which you'll always be in range of in PvE).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scourgey

Amy has it right, if you want to spam penetrating + Sundering shot then you really want to use experts focus. An extra 10 damage per shot & energy reduction is very nice.

I absolutely, 100% disagree.

Experts Focus, last time I checked, is still flawed in that it takes the 2 energy off the cost of skills BEFORE expertise is calculated.
Therefore, at both 12 and 13 Expertise, all Experts Focus does for you is reduce the cost of your skills by only 1 point of energy. That's right, a single point of energy. Which might not be so bad if Expert Focus didn't cost twice as much energy as Read the Wind to begin with, and you didn't have to give up the arrow speed and the ability to use a flatbow that you get with RtW, and you didn't have to give up the endless energy engine (with added damage to boot) that is Prepared Shot.

Until they make it so that Expert's Focus calculates after Expertise (with a min. set at 1e), the skill will always be bad in my eyes.
If you really want an energy management prep, take Marksman's Wager instead.