Curse

Luminarus · Nov 08, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

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Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Before arguing about BHA can you at least understand how it works?

Flight buffs and bows do not affect BHA one jot, you gain no benefit from using a recurve and suffer no penalty from using a flatbow. In fact flat bow is the best bow to use with BHA.

This is not entirely true:

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Originally Posted by Guild Wiki's BHA page

The speed of the arrow (as influenced by the skill) cannot be increased with skills such as Favorable Winds and Read the Wind (though the speed and arc addition from the bow type using it can be lessened though negligible in comparison).

Using a flatbow gives it the longest possible flight time, whilst a recurve the least, assuming all are fired from the same position relative to the target. It isnt much, but its still something.

Fay Vert · Nov 09, 2008, 12:58 AM // 00:58

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Actually, Fay trashed neither and you missed part of the conversation, or left it out.

I quoted both of you where you demonstrate that you don't know how BHA works. I would have said that knowing how BHA works is kind of important in a discussion centered around it don't you agree?

To not know sort of undermines your credibility somewhat.

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Originally Posted by Luminarus

This is not entirely true:
...
Using a flatbow gives it the longest possible flight time, whilst a recurve the least, assuming all are fired from the same position relative to the target. It isnt much, but its still something.

While I am a big fan of GuildWiki, The official wiki makes no such claim. But its not even as simple as that, there is no substitute for actually going out and proving it yourself. Timing in GW is virtually impossible to measure less than 0.1 sec so I tested like this:-

Go to Isle of the Nameless, fire a recurve from distance to the 100 AC target to get range (on level ground). Now, zoom in to first person view and look up (a lot, it really is very high) so you can see the top of the BHA arc. Use something like your inventory window to mark the top of the arc, you will notice that even with the same bow, the arc varies! Now switch to a flatbow and you will see the same variance, there are times when the recurve fires higher than the flatbow and visa versa.

If there is a higher arc on a flatbow then it truely IS negligible and hard to observe because of this variance. It is safe to assume that there is no observable difference between bow arcs, if you are using BHA then use a flatbow, a recurve will give you no advantage.

Luminarus · Nov 09, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

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Originally Posted by Fay Vert

While I am a big fan of GuildWiki, The official wiki makes no such claim. But its not even as simple as that, there is no substitute for actually going out and proving it yourself. Timing in GW is virtually impossible to measure less than 0.1 sec so I tested like this:-

Go to Isle of the Nameless, fire a recurve from distance to the 100 AC target to get range (on level ground). Now, zoom in to first person view and look up (a lot, it really is very high) so you can see the top of the BHA arc. Use something like your inventory window to mark the top of the arc, you will notice that even with the same bow, the arc varies! Now switch to a flatbow and you will see the same variance, there are times when the recurve fires higher than the flatbow and visa versa.

If there is a higher arc on a flatbow then it truely IS negligible and hard to observe because of this variance. It is safe to assume that there is no observable difference between bow arcs, if you are using BHA then use a flatbow, a recurve will give you no advantage.

I never bothered checking it to that degree because all that was pertinent in my mind was the fact that shooting from max range is stupid. However, if this is the case then I take what I said about bow making a difference back. The rest of the stuff I said is correct though.

Amy Awien · Nov 09, 2008, 02:10 AM // 02:10

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Originally Posted by Fay Vert

... GuildWiki, ... official wiki ... there is no substitute for actually going out and proving it yourself. Timing in GW is virtually impossible to measure less than 0.1 sec

It's called a frame grabber, a common one is Fraps, another option is Taksi. Shouldn't be a problem for them to grab 20 FPS, and likely more.

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so I tested like this ...

Uhuh, looking at the arc. And in both cases you see a similar variance in the arc and therefore any difference in arc must be negligible. I suppose that means the flight time would be the same? Wrong

Using the framegrabber I found that at shortbow range the flight time for BHA on the recurve is 1.2 seconds, and 1.32 second on the flatbow.

Guildwiki is correct.

It may not be much, but it's not completely negligible.

Fay Vert · Nov 09, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Guildwiki is correct.

It may not be much, but it's not completely negligible.

You say Guild Wiki is correct? It says its negligible yet you say it isn't. What is it? Negligible or not. Do you even know the meaning of the word negligible?

And you can run all the fraps you want but you are only grabbing your CLIENT, and the client does not control the game, surely you know that? You can't measure less that 100ms reliably because your ping varies. And even if you did measure 20fps that is still 50ms error and how the did you measure the exact moment of pressing BHA? Wait for the first sign of an arrow out of your bow? Great, now add another 50ms on to your error. Want to add VSYNC to that too at each end? That's another 33ms. So your claiming a 120ms difference when the margin for error is probably 200ms with a good ping. I did all this years ago when people were discussing the true activation time of an interrupt.

Your timings mean nothing. That's assuming you even bothered to do any of this. I somehow doubt as that you still haven't bothered to even post this wonderful build of yours.

If you feel the need to swap to a recurve to fire your BHA then back to flatbow until it recharges then go right ahead, but then, we all know you don't do that either, do you?

Amy Awien · Nov 09, 2008, 03:40 AM // 03:40

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Originally Posted by Luminarus

I loled hard at amy's post. No offence bud, but ur brain is failing you. Go back to school.

Again, nothing but crap in your post. Whatever useful you might have had to say drowns in the dirt and the only impression you leave is one of a jerk. Do you honestly believe using such an opening line will in any way help me to read your garbage with interest.

No, off course not, so what do you want? If you want to discuss GW-skills and ranger you're either you're a complete failure in social and communicative skills, or you don't really care.

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Well, spear + pet is more likely to shutdown something then BHA, even if it has a pet.

No. sigh.

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Spear + pet AS I POSTED can kill something even if the rest of the team is elsewhere.

So can bow and pet. R/P isn't even good enough for PvXwiki.

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Read ur own stupid posts. I bolded the relevant part. Stupid...

My nick, you've bolded my nick? Thanks, more straight up insults. And you still have to show me how 1,5 / 1,39 == 2

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If you also read the post u quoted, I did compare them. I only didnt compare spear with pet & ias to bow with pet & ias because its too energy draining on a bow ranger.

You compared them incorrectly, NRA is easy enough to maintain, 7 energy every 24 seconds is not difficult to maintain for a bow ranger. And yes, you have enough energy to spend another 7 every 15 seconds - if you even need it that often. And you'd still have energy left.

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... Its not feasible to have a skill that drains 8-9 energy every 15 seconds, as well as another that drains the same amount every 20ish

8-9? I'll just conclude that you run a bow ranger with 10 or 11 in expertise...

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(seeing as NRA is a "grind skill" and you hate grind, you obviously dont have r10 sunspear.)

R8, and no grind needed, 24 second duration.

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You then dont want to lose ur precious savage and d-shot, theres more energy drained, with less DPS then the R/P

I'd be carfull with Savage Shot, but you have energy left for d-shot, which is, like, all of 2 energy. And Read the Wind.

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That pve grind skill has one of the best + damages on a spear attack,

Yeah, it is, I noticed that. It could well be the best single skill to bring on a spear, might be worth the boredom that is grind.

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However ur BHA requires savage and d-shot because you have a bow. Thats 2 slots saved under your book.

How does BHA require them? They, or at least just d-shot, are useful to pack.

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It wont, but itll compare DPS.

Ah, good. We can compare damage anyway, we know the weapons, their refire rate, etc... Next thing I'd do is to examine a few skills that seem like they would help to do what I want them to do and calculate their damage output and energy usage. Then weigh the options and make a choice. Then you try it in the field, change when needed and then we have a build. I find it a bit odd to try and do it the other way around.

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R/P has more DPS, pure and simple until you post a build proving otherwise.

From what I see in tests, spear has a more damage, yes. A few %, skills will likely add more, but the spear gives up interrupts. I think I said that, way back. But you wanted to persist that, even without

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Arguing with as many skills as you can throw at us

Actually, Igor started the DPS thing, and well, that was all without the pet. Then you came with your thing with the pet and after my response you threw everything together so it appeared I would have been using 4 attributes and a dozen skills. And people accuse me of using fallacies.

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Again YMLAD isnt a replacement interupt. Its spammable, HIGH armor ignoring damage, and shutdown (which is better then an interupt).

It's not spammable without help of a skill that regains energy, makes it needing two skill slots really. Knockdown is good, is good ... because ... it keeps the target from doing something. Just as interrupts do. It doesn't really matter if you use knockdown or d-shot them, except that d-shot also disables. Now, YmlaD also cripples, which has it's use at times.

I think it's a fine skill, really, pack it myself if I can, can be used for various purposes.

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Im pretty sure, like d-shots 20second doesnt trigger on a dazed target savage's damage doesnt either. Hence ur either using it on a different target, or ur not getting the damage in which case u lose out on DPS.

Correct, I'd use it on a different target. You still get the damage, it's just on another target.

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... If you have 3 beast mastery (assuming 12-12-3 split) then ur doing like 0 damage from ur pet and wasting three slots for an IAS.

Why? You start decent, then you make this dumb shit. If you don't add points in beastmastery there's little point in bringing charm, and even less in bringing comfort animal. You're still not serious and still comparing with obvious shit. I wonder why that is.

With a bow you have the ability to use runes for your weapon, attribute distribution, if done properly, is more favourable for the bow hybrid.

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You also have not enough energy to spam attacks and keep ur IAS up.

More nonsense, but now it's even more obvious, you put 12 base attribute points in expertise, but you fail add a +1 rune and +1 mask to bring it to 14. And then you proclaim it's insufficient to maintain NRA?

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Interupts also give an aftercast which again ruins ur attack speed.

They also have a very short cast. If it weren't for the 12-12-3 attribute spread this would probably be the least valuable argument in your post.

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If you bring a pet only for the hits and not the damage you might look elsewhere for those, you're not alone but in team of 8.

Im not even sure what ur trying to say with this point. Its just stupid.

How can you say a point is stupid when it's not clear what was ment?

If other party members hit the dazed target, these hits will interrupt too. So, you don't need an IAS and pet to generate the hits on the dazed target to shut him down, other party members help with this too.

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They do, however if ur going for the Bow DPS vs Spear DPS argument running a pet on a spear has overall higher DPS. Hence it makes it BETTER. On a bow you cant really improve ur bow damage and have a pet, as the build you said above shows.

1) You can improve bow damage, even with a pet, though it would probably be easier without it
2) more damage doesn't equal better
3) I've always believed that spears did more damage, and still preferred bows for their functionality. But since recently I have my doubts about the dps of spear rangers

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What happened to ur party NOT attacking the dazed target? If you arent alone in shutting down that character, fine, tab around. Theres nothing wrong with that. But then again, dps drops.

Well, even when tabbing around (to look) your character keeps firing at the last attack target. It doesn't switch until you actually take action against a new target.

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... In some areas BHA is better. ...

Pff, well, and many area's where daze isn't needed at all. I tend to change things around when I think it will work better in an area anyway.

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... One of ur arguments against spears was that they had close range. They are the same as that of a shortbow.

I doubt that - I tend to move closer for the shorter flight time - but I am to tired too search back for something I most likely never said.

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If going close enough for shortbow use then Spear has better DPS,

Well, from your believe about bow/spear dps I understand your remark. Damage is something like 36 vs 37 hp/s for plain weapon + pet (in autoattack), not a big difference.

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and better armor for the same outcome. If using a flat then as I posted it has a large effect on BHA.

That's why I said you could switch, recurve for BHA, then flatbow for attacks, under RtW that should be fine.

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Lets try with an 11/11/10 split before runes. 11+1 expertise, 11+1+1 marks, 10+1 beast. As fair an attribute split as possible, gets the most out of expertise, marks and beast.

No, not really. For the 5 and 15 E skills it's really better to get expertise to 13, which is breakpoint for both. If using a lot of 10E skills, 12 or 14 is better.

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At 12 expertise BHA costs 8 energy. Never Rampage Alone costs 8 Energy. Dshot Costs 3, savage shot costs 5.

But since we run with 13 Expertise they are 7, 7 and 2.

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So thats 8 energy every 15 seconds (8/15 energy consumed). D-Shot is 3 energy every 10 seconds. Savage is 5 energy every 5. NRA is another 8 every 25.

It's 7 and 2. The only one fixed is NRA, at 7/24, the others aren't spammed on recharge, so the load is lower as you projected

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Every 30 seconds you have to use over 27 from BHA and IAS and ur preparation.

Lets see, 2 * 7 + 7 + 2 = 23

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This means you have little energy so spare for interupts,

7 in 30 seconds, should be enough for a couple of d-shots.

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And as I said unless ur at the right range for the second weapon you could lose time moving in closer.

Recurve for BHA, flat for attacking and you have no range problems

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And it drops ur DPS since firing that under an IAS still takes the better part of 2 seconds, as well as time lost in weapon swapping.

Weapon swap doesn't take time, as far as I 've noticed. And regular skills fire as fast as normal attacks, and when under IAS they fire quicker as well.

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You did in an earlier post saying that BHA can bring a cover condition in areas with cond removal.

I don't think so. But I am too tired too search for something that isn't there.

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We made the build earlier, if you want to spam things then you need scavengers to power your energy. However that build doesnt have a condition to cause apart from dazed

That works for Scvenger's. And if you use it for YmlaD you have it's cripple to feed scavenger's.

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You cant afford sloths or YMLAD because they cost too much.

Basically you have scavenger's for that, your regular E regen covers the rest.

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Next time you post, please stop pulling crap out of ur arse to prove a wrong point.

Well, you've been posting some nonsense here. Not a single one of your attribute distributions made any sense, for example. But at least I now can understand why you'd run R/P.

Moonlit Azure · Nov 09, 2008, 03:49 AM // 03:49

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You then dont want to lose ur precious savage and d-shot, theres more energy drained, with less DPS then the R/

Are you shitting me? You'd rather drop d shot for a spear? And Ranger shut down> ranger dps.

Amy Awien · Nov 09, 2008, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Fay, you made a mistake. You assumed to know for certain that flight times on BHA did not vary with bow type and on the basis of that assumption you felt you could hold some form of ignorance about BHA against us.

But, well, you were wrong Fay, not even about the flight time, but about believing that you'd know. Because you don't know with certainty whether bow type changes flight time of BHA or not, wiki doesn't know it and I don't [i]know it. And because you don't know it, you can not hold it against us that we don't know it for certain either.

Fay Vert · Nov 09, 2008, 04:18 AM // 04:18

No, it is you who assumed out of total ignorance that bows do affect it. I was merely pointing out how stupid you were for arguing about a skill when you don't know (you even just said so!) how it works.

When will you get your head out of wikis and bother to play the game?

When will you bother to post a complete build rather than spout all this armchair theory that you haven't even played?

Luminarus · Nov 09, 2008, 05:38 AM // 05:38

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

No, off course not, so what do you want? If you want to discuss GW-skills and ranger you're either you're a complete failure in social and communicative skills, or you don't really care.

Ur right I dont care. Ur stupid, ur argument is stupid.

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So can bow and pet. R/P isn't even good enough for PvXwiki.

1) Neither is BHA + Pet
2) Neither is BHA + Conjure
3) Hell... there is no Great PVE BHA build posted on pvx.

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My nick, you've bolded my nick? Thanks, more straight up insults. And you still have to show me how 1,5 / 1,39 == 2

Never mind that bit, I was reading it as once per every 1.5 seconds, my bad. I apologize for this.

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You compared them incorrectly, NRA is easy enough to maintain, 7 energy every 24 seconds is not difficult to maintain for a bow ranger. And yes, you have enough energy to spend another 7 every 15 seconds - if you even need it that often. And you'd still have energy left.

Fine run 13 it still doesnt make a difference. The numbers still work out that in 30 seconds you have less then like 7 energy spare. R/P Has more energy to spare. Take 3 energy off the numbers I calculated... its like 1/2 of another savage shot.

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8-9? I'll just conclude that you run a bow ranger with 10 or 11 in expertise...

To actually do any damage you need atleast 12-13+ marks. You wanted to bring a pet along and as u urself said its stupid with 3 in beast mastery. So I needed some fair attributes. I thought the ones I posted were fair, but if you want to run 13 exp, 12 marks, 11 pet go for it. 3 extra energy every 30 seconds isnt gonna save you.

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R8, and no grind needed, 24 second duration.

My point still stands.

[/QUOTE]I'd be carfull with Savage Shot, but you have energy left for d-shot, which is, like, all of 2 energy. And Read the Wind.[/QUOTE]
In 30 seconds its 2 BHA's, 1.33 NRA, 1.33 RTW. @ 7,7,2 (energy costs) that is a total of 14+9+2.5 = 25e (Where its slightly rounded down to make it nice for u, its actually far closer to 26e. That means 4 energy to spare BEFORE USING D-Shot. Thats 2 d-shots in 30 seconds, or 1 savage shot and nothing else.

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How does BHA require them? They, or at least just d-shot, are useful to pack.

fine, dont bring them. You still only have 4 energy. This equates to 2 5 energy ranger skills... you cant even afford 1 10 energy skill in the long run. (Sure can go into negatives in the short run since you have a base surplus, but its not maintainable.)

[QUOTE
Ah, good. We can compare damage anyway, we know the weapons, their refire rate, etc... Next thing I'd do is to examine a few skills that seem like they would help to do what I want them to do and calculate their damage output and energy usage. Then weigh the options and make a choice. Then you try it in the field, change when needed and then we have a build. I find it a bit odd to try and do it the other way around. [/QUOTE] Ur right... we did ur WHOLE ARGUMENT is based on the fact that a bow can out DPS a spear (or atleast it initially was). Spear DPS is greater. U were going on about how u can buff bows to out DPS a spear, but wouldnt agree on a way to do it... Energy usage for UR BUILD is 25-26 energy every 30 seconds. This is 5/6 of ur energy supply devoted entirely to BHA, NRA, and RTW.

Oh and about trying it in the field, u said U dont want to waste money trying out the R/P build. Ur a hypocrite.

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From what I see in tests, spear has a more damage, yes. A few %, skills will likely add more, but the spear gives up interrupts. I think I said that, way back. But you wanted to persist that, even without

I disagree about giving up interupts. Since you arent bringing savage, or dont find it so necessary, you have BHA + 1 interupt. I Have Stunning + YMLAD. YMLAD interupts. Hence we have same number of interupts. Yes urs disables that skill for 20 seconds, mine does nearly 6 times more damage, is instant, cripples, and shutdowns the opponent for 2 seconds. It is also useful if they arent casting, and for offensive, or defensive purposes. (Hit the warrior wailing on ur backline, very helpful if they are kiting.)

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Actually, Igor started the DPS thing, and well, that was all without the pet. Then you came with your thing with the pet and after my response you threw everything together so it appeared I would have been using 4 attributes and a dozen skills. And people accuse me of using fallacies.

You were arguing against Igors build, which all along was the STANDARD R/P which brings a pet. You were trying to bring a conjure to improve it etc. Then u started pulling ranger damage skills to outdamage it aswell (sloths, needling etc), then you wanted epidemic because R/P can daze several in a battle whilst BHA isnt as lucky. Then you wanted a pet so that you could have the IAS etc. Ur 8 skill bar now has 5 stapled to it, with no damage, no prep and only d-shot. This should show u pure and simply ur folly.

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It's not spammable without help of a skill that regains energy, makes it needing two skill slots really. Knockdown is good, is good ... because ... it keeps the target from doing something. Just as interrupts do. It doesn't really matter if you use knockdown or d-shot them, except that d-shot also disables. Now, YmlaD also cripples, which has it's use at times.

If you can follow the AI right you can work out the way it uses skills, eg monk heals. If you use ymlad on the monk when it is about to reach that point, then hit it with stunning you can stop it long enough to get the kill through. D-Shot... ok I hit word, but his orison just healed the target we were attacking... now BHA is gonna take another 2-3 seconds to daze him. Or if hes already dazed then after d-shot (which u just wasted) he has the aftercast, and firing time to get off a spell... can easily pop off a 1 second spell.

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Correct, I'd use it on a different target. You still get the damage, it's just on another target.

Since ur tactic isnt to call the dazed target this means that they have a large opening to cast through due to aftercast of an interupt.

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Why? You start decent, then you make this dumb shit. If you don't add points in beastmastery there's little point in bringing charm, and even less in bringing comfort animal. You're still not serious and still comparing with obvious shit. I wonder why that is.

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With a bow you have the ability to use runes for your weapon, attribute distribution, if done properly, is more favourable for the bow hybrid.

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More nonsense, but now it's even more obvious, you put 12 base attribute points in expertise, but you fail add a +1 rune and +1 mask to bring it to 14. And then you proclaim it's insufficient to maintain NRA?

3 Contradicting posts. 1) Running 12-12-3 is stupid. 2) With a Bow you can have better runes (meaning overall a higher damage output/spammability) 3) You have 12 levels before runes (and you want 1headgera for exp)... Ok here we go:

If you have 12 in expertise, you cant have more then 12 in bow without sacrificing HP or running 3 beast mastery. Ur running three beast mastery, ur pet is pointless. Ur sacrificing HP for wat, 1 or 2 more ranks in bow? u still only have like 6 in beast. Damage doesnt increase by much over 12 in a weapon mastery anywayz. Ur not running 12 expertise? you cant spam.

Again wanting ur cake and eating it.

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They also have a very short cast. If it weren't for the 12-12-3 attribute spread this would probably be the least valuable argument in your post.

From wiki, skills with 1/2 cast have a 0.75 aftercast. This means that u wont hit again for like another 1 1/4ish seconds. Since you havent been attacking that target with the interupt, then thats over a 1.75 second delay in hitting them.

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How can you say a point is stupid when it's not clear what was ment?

I meant the wording.

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If other party members hit the dazed target, these hits will interrupt too. So, you don't need an IAS and pet to generate the hits on the dazed target to shut him down, other party members help with this too.

Thought u dazed one target, whilst the other party members killed another... make up ur mind again plzkthnx. This isnt an argument for or against BHA/RP because it is the same with both anywayz.

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1) You can improve bow damage, even with a pet, though it would probably be easier without it
2) more damage doesn't equal better
3) I've always believed that spears did more damage, and still preferred bows for their functionality. But since recently I have my doubts about the dps of spear rangers

1) Now you DONT want ur IAS? or ur pet? MAKE UP UR MIND
2) True, but running 2 things doing the same thing one with damage one without, which is better?
3) If you seriously believe that... LOL. The only way bows can have more DPS is with OP stuff like Experts Dexterity, pre-nerf sundering/penetrating, and glass arrows. None of these are plausible here.

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Well, even when tabbing around (to look) your character keeps firing at the last attack target. It doesn't switch until you actually take action against a new target.

This is stupid. Tabbing around but not really doing anything is pointless... you can do that with the spear as well anywayz. I was referring to tabbing and interupt in the point u quoted anyway.

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Pff, well, and many area's where daze isn't needed at all. I tend to change things around when I think it will work better in an area anyway.

whats this got to do with anything? In the areas where Daze is helpful its either BHA or Stunning. Obviously dont bring those elites into areas where they dont help. Stunning is better in MOST of these areas, however in some BHA is better. U luv twisting my words to make me seem noobish... try quoting whole segments and not leading the defining words out thanx. (Are you a journalist?)

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I doubt that - I tend to move closer for the shorter flight time - but I am to tired too search back for something I most likely never said.

Im pretty sure someone said it, I thought it was you but I could be wrong. It came up due to reference to the benefit of a shield.

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Well, from your believe about bow/spear dps I understand your remark. Damage is something like 36 vs 37 hp/s for plain weapon + pet (in autoattack), not a big difference.

The difference is more then that... due to the IAS. The pet is a constant in both, its damage is irrelevant. The damage ranges of both is basically the same, 1 damage different. However the Spear attacks 4 times for every 3 bow attacks. Thats a 33% increase in overall output. (give or take due to the 1 damage difference being essentially negligable).

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That's why I said you could switch, recurve for BHA, then flatbow for attacks, under RtW that should be fine.

Weapon swapping means moving if u arent close enough. It also takes time to weapon swap. It doesnt happen instantly. I think it takes out about 1/2 a second or more to swap. Either way you have wasted time AND damage in swapping.

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No, not really. For the 5 and 15 E skills it's really better to get expertise to 13, which is breakpoint for both. If using a lot of 10E skills, 12 or 14 is better.

But since we run with 13 Expertise they are 7, 7 and 2.

It's 7 and 2. The only one fixed is NRA, at 7/24, the others aren't spammed on recharge, so the load is lower as you projected

If something doesnt need dazing then the fight is nearly over. At this point its purely about DPS which spear wins. R/P can spam everything till the cows come home and not worry about energy. My point is however that in a battle until its over, something should need to be dazed. If not the +25 from stunning stops it being useless, which is another benefit it has over BHA. Also at this point, the 80 from YMLAD is a nice addition to anything.

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Lets see, 2 * 7 + 7 + 2 = 23

7 in 30 seconds, should be enough for a couple of d-shots.

Yay a couple of d-shots... still ur not out dpsing the R/P, especially since you need to stop to cast read the wind every 20ish seconds, and need to weapon swap for ur BHA (+ possibly having to move)

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Recurve for BHA, flat for attacking and you have no range problems

OMG... things DONT move? since wen. I assumed we were talking about HM...

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Weapon swap doesn't take time, as far as I 've noticed. And regular skills fire as fast as normal attacks, and when under IAS they fire quicker as well.

Im pretty sure it does, although it may have just been that it takes time to end after the previous attack. Couldnt find anything on wiki for or against it.

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That works for Scvenger's. And if you use it for YmlaD you have it's cripple to feed scavenger's.

Yes... im saying that ur build doesnt carry a spare condition. Sure you can rely on ur party for it, but if you miss with BHA, then you cant even fuel ur energy return.

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Basically you have scavenger's for that, your regular E regen covers the rest.

Now I see it... BHA costs nothing either... ive been wrong all these years.. the 15energy cost is a lie perpetrated by anet. /sarcasm You cant afford it because you have BHA. My e-return is greater then that I spend. Hell, I could swap merciless for vicious and still have enough energy. I have enough energy to use all offensive skills on recharge.

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Well, you've been posting some nonsense here. Not a single one of your attribute distributions made any sense, for example. But at least I now can understand why you'd run R/P.

Sorry for not wanting my cake and to eat it as well. My attribute splits were fair given what you wanted, bow damage pet damage and spammability. Sorry that I gave u a marksmans headgear instead of expertise headgear... I assumed that you wanted the damage from it... but still ur energy goes straight down the drain with that build.

Luminarus · Nov 09, 2008, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit Azure

Are you shitting me? You'd rather drop d shot for a spear? And Ranger shut down> ranger dps.

In some areas yes id rather have a spear then d-shot. Oh and whats wrong with shutdown AND dps?

MegaVolti · Nov 09, 2008, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

I disagree about giving up interupts. Since you arent bringing savage, or dont find it so necessary, you have BHA + 1 interupt. I Have Stunning + YMLAD. YMLAD interupts. Hence we have same number of interupts. Yes urs disables that skill for 20 seconds, mine does nearly 6 times more damage, is instant, cripples, and shutdowns the opponent for 2 seconds. It is also useful if they arent casting, and for offensive, or defensive purposes. (Hit the warrior wailing on ur backline, very helpful if they are kiting.)

I don't really want to get involved in your strange discussion but ... did you really just say that Stunning and BHA are comparable? I mean ... seriously?
BHA, which gives instant unconditional and long-lasting daze?
And Stunning Strike, which cost an insane 10 adrenalin and will only be charged when the high priority target (the enemy monk, the first kill) will be long dead anyway? And that has a way shorter daze and is basically impossible to keep up without adrenalin boosting skills? And which on top of all that also requires a condition? And did I mention that the enemy monk will be long gone anyway before those 10 adrenalin are charged?!
Stunning Strike is just so inferior to BHA ...

YMLaD on the other hand is great. It's better then D-Shot in many ways. On the other hand, many PvE creatues are immune to knockdown. And there are a lot of areas in which to most interesting enemies are those immune to knockdown.
In some areas I'd switch D-Shot and take YMLaD instead.
But that's not really relevant here. You can switch D-Shot for YMLaD in any bow build, as you can switch any spear skill for it if you want to. If you really want to compare bow vs spear, I'd go with Stunning Strike + Disrupting Throw. And again, the spear skill loses against the bow skill. Disrupting Throw is just so much worse then D-Shot ...

Bottom line: If you want daze and interrupt, a bow is the weapon to go. Spears really suck at the job.
If you don't need daze and interrupt, then spears may eventually be good - I never tried a spear on my Ranger ... got a Paragon for that

But certainly not to daze.

So much about daze ... now generally about spears on Rangers:
I often saw spear builds and I basically ignored them so far. It is often claimed that they are good on Rangers for better damage. But how can that be?
I like playing my Paragon, seriously, but even on my Para I don't use spears for damage. They generally suck at that. I use chants and anthems for support or play the old'n'boring Imbagon with SY spam. I never try to be the damage dealer. Why? Because I can't! As Paragon I neither have the armor penetration a Warrior has to offer nor the great skill damage of an Assassin. I can't nearly compete with real damage dealers in the backline - Necromancers or Mesmers for example. Spirit Strength Ritualists beat me in damage, too. And I lack any form of (offensive) AoE. The Situation gets better with Orders, I Am The Strongest, Ebon Battle Standarte and Asuran Scan - but those are not limited to spears so there is no advantage to the Paragon here. It's just so much more effective to not go for high DPS as Paragon but to use the shouts and chants to buff the damage of all other party members.
So if spear damage sucks even on a Paragon, how can Rangers go spears for damage? That doesn't really make much sense ...
Even if it is a little better then bow damage in some situations, I'd still recommend what I do on my Para: Just run a completely different build! It doesn't really matter if you have very little damage with the bow or little damage with the spear. Both are bad. One may be a little worse but that doesn't change the fact that neither should be used.
Which brings us back to the things a Ranger really can do: Daze for example. Did I mention BHA

?

I know of only one good reason to throw spears on a Ranger: If you run a nearly-pure best master build you may want a way to apply a condition to the enemy (for conditional pet skills). Spears offer bleeding at only 2 adrenalin. Screaming Shot with a shortbow also works just fine but its mana cost put it as a disadvantage here.

Luminarus · Nov 09, 2008, 06:42 AM // 06:42

U obviously havent read the thread.

EDIT: having reread ur post, are u sure we are both talking about the same game? Spears are one of the most imba weapons in the game.

MegaVolti · Nov 09, 2008, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

U obviously havent read the thread.

EDIT: having reread ur post, are u sure we are both talking about the same game? Spears are one of the most imba weapons in the game.

No I haven't. Have you seen the walls of text on the last page?

But that doesn't change the fact that Stunning + YMLaD were compared to BHA + D-Shot. And since BHA just wipes the floor with Stunning ...

And yes, we play the same game. But spears are totally overrated. Weapon base damage doesn't matter in PvE anyway (high armor targets ...). Spear skills lack high +damage on their own. Attack speed is nice but that alone isn't enough.
Spear damage on its own sucks. It gets strong in a party centered around physical support (to provide the damage with Barbs, EBSoH, I Am The Strongest etc). Then, the medicore base damage and the medicore skill damage don't matter and only attack speed is relevant to make the most out of the PvE skills. But we aren't talking about that, are we?

Edit:
To make that clear:
As far as I know there are 3 effective ways to play Guild Wars PvE in hard mode.
First the tank'n'spank. Boring, not relevant here.
Second, the caster group. Centered about a caster backline providing the damage, usually Mesmers and/or Necromancers. Well known example is the Sabway or Discordway. Physicals are bad here as damage dealers since physical damage buffs are not brought.
Third, the physical group. It's filled with as many physical damage dealers as possible and group wide skills boosting physical damage are used to maximum effect (orders, EBSoH and so on). Casters are bad here as damage dealers since they won't benefit from all the physical damage boosts. Well known example is the Paraway.

In that third group, spears are awesome. As ranged weapon they provide fast target-switching and with the high attack speed they are best to abuse the PvE only skills (EBSoH) as well as the party wide damage buffs (Barbs, Orders).
But that only works in groups centered around physical support and that is in no way connected to the spear skills or the spear weapon damage. It's just the fastest ranged weapon. If there was a slingshot with just 1 damage and 2 attacks per second (an awesome 2 DPS

), everybody would use that instead. But that doesn't make the slingshot superior to a bow in a pet-build. And that's no reason to go slingshots for a Ranger build outside of a heavy physical group.

Luminarus · Nov 09, 2008, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Its actually better then you give it credit for. Try the build I posted on the first, or second page and then come back and renew your comments. R/P spear is actually better for dazed, and has higher damage then BHA.

MegaVolti · Nov 09, 2008, 07:33 AM // 07:33

As I said I never really tried Stunning Strike on my Ranger. But I do play my Paragon and I did try to get it to work there. It just didn't.
As I said my main problem was that the enemy monk is targeted first in any fight and it should be long dead before Stunning charges. Adrenalin-skills make it easier but it still takes a few throws and by then the daze usually isn't needed anymore.
And then there is the problem that even at 12, the daze won't last that long. Without a daze mod on the weapon it's really hard to keep it up permanently on a boss (at least I didn't manage to do that on my Paragon). And those bosses are the only enemies that live long enough for the 10 adrenalin to charge in the first place

On top of that the chance of a miss or dodge ... for the adrenalin to charge, a lot of attacks have to hit. Misses will result in dazing time lost. BHA is much more forgiving there (since it's only 1 attack that has to hit, not 5).

If you really want daze on the spear build I'd go as far as to recommend taking BHA anyway and switching slots to the bow just for that skill - it's worth it to avoid Stunning Strike

Too bad that's not really an option because of the attribute spread

Luminarus · Nov 09, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Charging stunning in 6 seconds and the monk is already dead. You must be referring to NM. In HM everything is far too proficient. If ur dropping things that fast you dont even need a dazer, (aka NM), and there I agree with you. However HM things rarely drop that fast unless running discordway, in which case ur better off using /A with promise etc.

MegaVolti · Nov 09, 2008, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Charging stunning in 6 seconds and the monk is already dead. You must be referring to NM. In HM everything is far too proficient. If ur dropping things that fast you dont even need a dazer, (aka NM), and there I agree with you. However HM things rarely drop that fast unless running discordway, in which case ur better off using /A with promise etc.

Non-boss single monks are not that hard to drop fast, even in HM - if they are dazed from the start and can never use their heal!
But let's assume they still live after 6 seconds (yes, 6 seconds would really be very fast to drop the monk without a Discord spike). They were able to use their healing spells uninterrupted, basically negating the whole initial damage the party did. I'd still prefer daze from the first second ... if the Monk still lives, he will be close to death. Without daze, he will be close to full HP.

Another question: Why would I want to run a spear build on a Ranger? Even with the pet, your build (page 2) as P/R should be way more effective then as R/P. Energy management is superior on the Paragon because of cheap party shouts (add Go for the Eyes for example) and overall party support is also better.

Luminarus · Nov 09, 2008, 07:55 AM // 07:55

If you do it right, u run in, hit them for 1-2 seconds. This is the point when the damage reaches the point when AI wants to heal. Then YMLAD. Down for another 2 seconds, and you now have 8 adrenaline. They get up and u stunning strike. They have still done nothing. Only diff is that now that the battle is going R/P has more damage, and a faster charging dazed (and a lack of d-shot being the only real downside).

MegaVolti · Nov 09, 2008, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Right, YMLaD will help to get rid of healing while building adrenalin. I never tried that on my Paragon because she doesn't have all PvE skills yet

The 2s seem a little short for building 10 adrenalin, especially with a low lux/kurz rank - but the biggest problem I had with Stunning Strike is now a much smaller one.
But still: Why run that on a Ranger? Why not on a Paragon?

My line of thought:
Paragons are best at throwing pointy sticks at bad guys. So if somebody wants to throw pointy sticks, I think of Paragons. If you want to do it as Ranger, there should be a good reason why that Ranger build is superior to a Paragon build. If not then it should be played as P/R instead of R/P, if only for the better runes.
Yes, we are in a Ranger forum. But why should a Ranger do stuff a Paragon can do better? Isn't there enough stuff a Ranger can do better? Why try to do something else when there already is a better solution?
Or is there a good reason to chose a Ranger over a Paragon for throwing dazing spears? I don't see one right now ...