Curse

Super Igor · Nov 04, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

You just can't say anything without adding shit, can you, super dude?

QQ more if you have nothing to say eh? kkz, good idea. /sarcasm :>

To Shas,

Shorter range of the spear against a longbow is balanced out by much better accuracy, attack rate and ability to wield a shield.

Fay Vert · Nov 04, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Have u ever actually tried it Amy or are you spouting numbers from pure theory?

A very good and relevent question. The response was somewhat disappointing given the intensity of the argument.

Its put up or shut up time I would say.

Super Igor · Nov 04, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

What d'you mean?

Fay Vert · Nov 04, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

I mean Luminarus asked a very good and relevent question. Amy's reply was disappointing.

Amy Awien · Nov 05, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

A very good and relevent question.

I've thought about it, but I have done the math and checked the wikis, and everything tells me the build is not nearly good enough to rush off to the skill trainer and invest the time, coin and resources to confirm wether it's a good build or not, meanwhile I'll use my own judgment and number juggling.

It's not a very good question either, you wouldn't buy the skills and gear for something you don't believe is worth it either, I don't see why you'd expect me to do so.

Tyla · Nov 05, 2008, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Can I stop laughing now? Sitting back and laughing is a hard job to do when you've no popcorn.

Honestly, though. Spears are much more powerful than bows when it comes to damage unless you're running EDex and spamming Keen Arrow / Sloth Hunters' Shot, Hunters' and Savage under several buffs. Infact, it's evident that spears are one of the most overpowered weapons in the game next to scythes because they're ranged and have sword DPS, discounting attack skills such as Spear of Fury etc..

I must say I'd rather have a Warrior taking the place of a Spear Turret though.

Fay Vert · Nov 05, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I've thought about it, but I have done the math and checked the wikis, and everything tells me the build is not nearly good enough to rush off to the skill trainer and invest the time, coin and resources to confirm wether it's a good build or not, meanwhile I'll use my own judgment and number juggling.

It's not a very good question either, you wouldn't buy the skills and gear for something you don't believe is worth it either, I don't see why you'd expect me to do so.

Well, I'm a great fan of knowledge and working out the numbers myself. Which brings about the other question. Just what two builds are you doing the maths on?

I've spent a lot of time creating builds, and they don't always turn out as I hope when I come to test them. I know I would sure as hell check reality to theory before I started arguing about which is better in public. Considering the effort spent in this thread, is it that hard to get the build together to test? I would have thought that most experienced players these days would be UAX, but even if you aren't is it such a problem to unlock a few with balth or coin to test?

Moonlit Azure · Nov 05, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Definitely. Amy fought valiantly and made some good points, but spears are overpowered. But I don't like Igor and the others ignorance of others opinions. Have some respect dammit.

And spear warriors are better than spear rangers.

legacyofkain85 · Nov 05, 2008, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit Azure

Definitely. Amy fought valiantly and made some good points, but spears are overpowered. But I don't like Igor and the others ignorance of others opinions. Have some respect dammit.

And spear warriors are better than spear rangers.

yes spear wars can dish out some nice dmg, im even messing around with a spear war in pve ,33% ias from [Flail] and a spear whats not to like wonder if it can outdamage a paragon.

Amy Awien · Nov 05, 2008, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Well, I'm a great fan of knowledge and working out the numbers myself. Which brings about the other question. Just what two builds are you doing the maths on?

Basic damage of Bow + Pet and Spear + Pet, then (try to) calculate the added damage of a few skills and/or buffs and see if they can give an idea of the damage potential of each of the two approaches and which of these skills would probably combine best in a build. Didn't get far with all the distractions.

Quote:

I've spent a lot of time creating builds, and they don't always turn out as I hope when I come to test them. I know I would sure as hell check reality to theory before I started arguing about which is better in public.

I think it helps to start with numbers, we can all verify them, we can not verify a 'it works', for that you need trust and trust is low in supply at the moment.

Bow and pet can hurt the baddies, spear and pet can hurt the baddies. It is said that spear and pet hurt enough more to sacrifice interrupts and other bowskills for. I doubt that spear and pet hurt more, let alone enough more to sacrifice the rest for.

That is, in a nutshell, what it is about for me.

Quote:

is it such a problem to unlock a few with balth or coin to test?

Yes, it is, I can't unlock the factions PvE skill with balthazar faction and it's a rather crucial skill.

byteme! · Nov 05, 2008, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Amy you've spoken enough. Put up or shutup. You don't need to try anything or buy any skills. You don't need to invest any money. Just give us "YOUR 8 SKILL R/E BAR THAT YOU ARE CRUNCHING NUMBERS WITH". Why have you avoided this? 8 skills is all we need. Let the rest of us do our own number crunching. I've read this entire thread and I keep seeing you dodge this whole concept.

I'll say it 1 more time. WHAT DOES YOUR COMPLETE AND FINAL 8 SKILL BAR R/E BHA BUILD LOOK LIKE? I am not asking for a comparison or opinion or any other bullshit. I WANT TO SEE THIS EPIC 8 SKILL BAR OF YOURS. Can you do that? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you're gonna reply to something else and avoid this altogether. I can go through this thread and pick out random skills you've mentioned here and there to form a conclusion of my own on what "I think" your 8 skill bar would look like but I want to see it in writing in YOUR OWN WORDS.

So where is it?

PS. Before you start disecting my post to find a flaw to reply to please fulfill my request. This kinda of crap happens alot. People try to change the subject by attacking posts looking for flaws. I'm trying to make this as humanly clear as possible.

YOUR P/E BHA 8 SKILL BAR IN YOUR NEXT REPLY TO THIS POST PLEASE!

Moonlit Azure · Nov 05, 2008, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Its you who needs to shut up. At least Amy can defend her position so well without having to bark at the other person and flame.

[well of silence]

Jump down one, please.

byteme! · Nov 05, 2008, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit Azure

Its you who needs to shut up. At least Amy can defend her position so well without having to bark at the other person and flame.

[well of silence]

Jump down one, please.

Hey if she's so good at defending her position then she should have absolutely no issue with posting her build right? RIGHT?! It's a very simple request. I was only trying to be cyrstal clear in my previous post. If I came off as being rude so be it. It's the internet. If it makes you feel any better I can be alot worse.

Moonlit Azure · Nov 05, 2008, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Her build is pretty well known actually.

byteme! · Nov 05, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit Azure

Her build is pretty well known actually.

Then let her post it in her own writing. You and I can go back and forth. My request was for her not you. I have no concern with you so lets try and keep it that way ok?

Moonlit Azure · Nov 05, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Why are you rambling on everyone elses behalf?

byteme! · Nov 05, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit Azure

Why are you rambling on everyone elses behalf?

Because "I" want to know too? How long you wanna play tag?

(lol at post below...)

Moonlit Azure · Nov 05, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Stop answering my questions with more questions, dammit.

Luminarus · Nov 05, 2008, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Moonlit, Im assuming you have been following the thread to this point. At NO POINT does Amy actually post a build which is to be compared with the R/P. As I have said earlier she has thrown out over 10-15 skills to make her build better then the R/P. I am happy to consider her points IF she has proof, however at this point there have been 4 facts. 1) The R/P build we are discussing has been posted. 2) The R/E has NOT been posted. 3) Amy has NOT tried the R/P spear build. 4) She is defending her build with more skills then are allowed on a skill bar.

Moonlit, if her build is "pretty" well known then what it is? Her argument has been a R/E with conjure, IAS, Pet, D-Shot, Savage Shot, Sloth Hunters, Needling, Scavengers Strike, as well as throwing in /Me for epidemic which means no conjure OR haxing the game.

NRA|Charm|Comfort|Conjure|BHA|D-Shot|Optional|Optional|

This is a highly energy intensive build, as it has to drop expertise quite drastically to get enough attributes for the pet and conjure. Its also only got one interupt. If She brings savage shot in the optionals then theres even more energy concerns. Theres still no preparation. If she brings scavengers she has more energy, but then has less access to damage. At any rate she simply cannot bring all the skills she obviously wants on the bar. Saying her bar is pretty well known is (put simply) bull shit.

Amy is not defending her position well, she is refusing to take a stance to defend. I can say a ranger is better then a warrior in the frontline, and then throw out 14 skills that make a sin better then a shock axe. This is (imo) a similar argument to this one. Amy is defending BHA through the use of a myriad of skills whilst i defend the R/P Stunning Strike Spear chucker.

BHA is a great skill for pve. In some cases it is better then the R/P Stunning Strike builds, HOWEVER for general play the R/P is a better build. Until Amy can post a build that she is goign to stick to in order to defend her point, she has no leg to stand on. FURTHERMORE arguing from pure theory is stupidity at its finest. I know this is not the scientific community, but that is a perfect example where everything is initially theory, but people dont make claims until ATLEAST some experimental data is found.

Amy, sure you have all of those skills in the bar with the exception of 3 max. Buy a cheap spear, cap stunning and buy the other 2 spear attacks. This should set you back a total of 4k, and 10 minutes. THEN TRY THE BUILD.

Until you have a stance to argue from (build), or have atleast experience with both sides of the argument please stfu.

Amy Awien · Nov 05, 2008, 09:24 AM // 09:24

You are not in any position to determine how I can argue or not, Luminarus.

Please don't argue with fake builds to make a point, it should be obvious enough that a conjure doesn't sit easily with a pet - which wasn't even involved at first - just as it is obvious to add RtW, hybrid beastmasters aren't exactly new.

I see little chance to analyze complete (and experimental) builds if it's not even possible to discuss the basics from a neutral and objective point of view and without hostility and aggression from you and your super buddy.

So, maybe when adrenaline have been lowered we can spend our energy on some real analysis - and testing - rather then wasting it on this debilitating bickering.