Curse

Rhamia Darigaz · Nov 02, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlit Azure

Ok good dps on a ranger.

Wanna cookie for totally disregarding what your class is for?

wanna cookie for judging a build based on what its primary profession is meant to do instead of its effectiveness?

Luminarus · Nov 02, 2008, 11:41 PM // 23:41

I didnt purposely choose a bad BHA build for u Amy, I was creating one based on what we had been discussing.If you read what I was saying it was based on the assumption that we were using dazing elites. U wanted a conjure, so I gave the ranger that (and fair attributes to go along with it), d-shot since you mentioned that as well, and needling because you said using that makes it like an interupt. If the build was bad, then ur suggestions failed. If my post is wrong because I compared the R/P beasmaster to a bad BHA build, then all ur preceding posts are either full of excrement, or you have no clue what ur talking about.

Yes you can have read the wind, but then you sacrifice 2 seconds every 24 to cast it. If base damage is so lacking as you said, then why are you arguing when the spear skills have armor ignoring + damage (+30ish on stunning, and if using the build I posted further down, deepwound, +34 on fury, +15ish on scavengers).

Now you can say, I can bring other + damage bow attacks. But you cant spam them because of energy restrictions. Again you dont trigger orders/barbs/mop if u have a conjure.

If using a vampiric spear as well, the faster attack speed gives more damage then a bow is going to get.

Bring a pet on a bow, why do not so many people do this? Because its overall inneffective and too expensive. I have never seen a GOOD bow/pet build, except barrage pet. And that only worked because the pets where meant to die to fuel a minion factory (before corpse nerf), and/or as tanks. The current builds all work through spears, hammers, axe, or (sometimes) swords. Why is this? Because they all use mostly adrenaline skills and you can afford it.

Yes it uses more energy to apply the daze. However, it then has the energy management to regain it. Try my build. You can literally use all skills on recharge. That means that you get 80 armor ignoring damage, a knockdown and cripple every 10 seconds. It doesnt even have to be on the target you are fighting. Daze the monk, spear it and then knockdown the ele in the middle of rodgorts invocations (example) to save ur party from 150 damage + burning. What 5 skills? Stunning Strike and ymlad is the only skills needed. Spear of fury just speeds it up but is unnecessary. I only brought scavengers to fuel ymlad. Being able to use it on recharge makes it a godly skill.

Also about them being hardly able to get anything through whilst dazed using a bow, let me point you through to a nice fact. You remember how IA was before they buffed it? It was crap. Why because you couldnt really control the interupts. What does dazed in HM do? It increases the cast time to that of a normal caster, and makes it so that attacking interupts spells. That is no different then the old IA without party support. Interupting on average every .75 seconds from spear & pet both under IAS has a far greater chance of stopping them then a bow master does.

Oh and at the norn skill... its knockdown ALSO prevents the target from moving so that the dazed WILL hit. BHA has a high miss chance from range, or u need to get into melee range for it.

Oh, 1 FINAL thing. Things die so fast in pve, that you only need shorterm shutdown to win. R/P can get atleast 2, probably three casters in the single mob per fight. Ranger will be lucky to get 2, never 3.

These are facts. Whilst bow DPS can be greater then spear DPS, it takes devoting a whole bar too, and is not worth it. I do still run BHA because its fun and allows access to secondary's (i like Save Yourselves), + volley is a really nice skill when used with an off char splinter. However I have found that the R/P is better from extensive use. This is not, hmmm I find the R/P more fun, its simply BETTER.

Amy Awien · Nov 03, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Yes, ...

You are misrepresenting the findings from my calculations, I've shown that there are better options then spears when you want to increase damage output of your ranger.

What's 'unfair' about using /E for a conjure? You're promoting /P and spears. You have a choice for your secondary and if /P is fair, so is /E.

Why is /E and using a skill to boost damage per hit unfair, or different from using attack skills? With a bow at least you have the option to use preps and conjures to boost your damage, a choice you may not have with a spear but that is the consequence of choosing a spear as weapon, fair and unfair have nothing to do with it.

If it's important for some hexes and conjures aren't an option, you can use Read the Wind or Expert Focus and still get better damage.

There's nothing ugly about using three attributes, if damage with a conjure on an 11/10/10 is better then from a 12/12 without it, then why not use it? Because it's ugly? How does that make sense?

It's too bad that your favourite R/P is only meh in HM, but that is it's reality. The effectiveness of a spear R/P depends on it's base damage in combination with a high firing rate, and the obscene AL in HM screws up that base damage.

Luminarus · Nov 03, 2008, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Ill agree that there is nothing wrong with using a conjure to boost ur damage. However, as my posts have been trying to say a bow with conjure is still NOT better then a spear. Yes you do a little more damage per hit, but the lack of a decent IAS means ur hitting once every 2 seconds. A spear with 33% IAS is iirc 1 attack per 1.25 seconds. + the useful ness of a pet means that it does more damage. 2 spear attacks + atleast 1 pet attack is more damage then a bow attack with conjure. Try this. Go out in HM outside the first town in eotn. Using ur conjure bow build kill a wurm and time how long it takes. Then use my R/P spear build. See how long it takes to kill it. Use skills as you please. Mine will kill it faster, AND has better shutdown. If after this you are still trying to argue this point, then as Igor said, ur arguing for the sake of arguing.

EDIT: I just tried what I suggested, and they killed in about the same time.
R/E had the atts I suggested earlier, BHA, D-Shot, Needling, Sloth Hunters, RTW, I Am The Strongest, Conjure and Drunken Master.
R/P with my build. R/P Killed in 15 seconds (Died right about halfway through ymlad's 2nd recharge) , R/E in about 12-13. + The R/E had a more damage focused build then a general BHA does.
This is NUMBERS not SPECULATION. (These wurms have high base AL, my spear was averaging about 8 damage hits, a higher base AL then most HM monsters do. This further ignores the bonus's from barbs/shield/utility.

Tyla · Nov 03, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

To add on, using a Conjure disallows you the ability to be buffed by skills such as Barbs, Orders etc. while taking up your secondary which can be used on something such as Epidemic or something.

Luminarus · Nov 03, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Already said that in previous posts lol.

Amy Awien · Nov 03, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

I didnt purposely choose a bad BHA build for u Amy, I was creating one based on what we had been discussing.

That's just bs, we weren't discussing specific builds but the general options and possibilities available and when you pretend those were meant to be tossed into one build you are using false logic. It's not those suggestions that failed, but the way you deliberately pulled them out of context to obscure the argument.

As for 'excrement' ... thanks for your wonderful choice of words, it certainly shows what kind of person you are more then that it establishes you as knowledgeable.

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If base damage is so lacking as you said, then why are you arguing when the spear skills have armor ignoring + damage (+30ish on stunning, and if using the build I posted further down, deepwound, +34 on fury, +15ish on scavengers).

Scavenger's is a BM skill.

Deep wound aside, the +30-ish on an (elite) attack skill is about the best a spear has to offer and there's only one skill that offers it. Bow attacks can offer +damage, the expertise shots for instance come with a +36 - for a 2E cost (one if you know how to use Expert Focus), Sloth can bring in +50-ish and combines well with Daze and there's always Triple Shot to apply your conjures and preps thrice. Choice enough.

You can get Deep Wound from a PvE skill, similar to how your spear build uses a long recharge and energy expensive PvE skill for the condition required for Stunning.

The two seconds usually fit in between some recharge here or there and at least with BHA you don't have to wait until your adrenaline is charged up. And yes, I can spam bow attacks.

Now you can say, I can bring other + damage bow attacks. But you cant spam them because of energy restrictions. Again you dont trigger orders/barbs/mop if u have a conjure.

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If using a vampiric spear as well, the faster attack speed gives more damage then a bow is going to get.

Nope, bow has 5 HP vamp strings and ends up getting a bit more out of it, 1.75 HP/s vs 1.0

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Bring a pet on a bow, why do not so many people do this? Because its overall inneffective and too expensive.

Since you're making it a popularity contest, pvxWiki doesn't list many good spear R/P builds for PvE, not one I think. I don't think that is because they're so hot in PvE and nobody realizes it, but because they aren't so great (they do have them for PvP).

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I have never seen a GOOD bow/pet build, except barrage pet. And that only worked because the pets where meant to die to fuel a minion factory (before corpse nerf), and/or as tanks.

Last time I checked B/P still worked, nerf or not. The pets and the minions keep the baddies away. And they also trigger the orders and curses. There's also nothing like it using spears.

Bow + Pet is more viable as spear + pet and if there's no good bow/pet build, there's no good spear + pet build. Well, maybe that Hero Battle build has some use, in Hero Battles.

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The current builds all work through spears, hammers, axe, or (sometimes) swords.

Most ranger builds still use bows. If there's another weapon it's scythes. And a few Hammers. But not spears.
Adrenaline sounds nice, but it never seems to make it.

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Try my build.

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... then knockdown the ele in the middle of rodgorts invocations

Really, the norn skill is too expensive as interrupt, you get two Savage Shot's for it's energy cost, and they have a lower recharge.

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What 5 skills? Stunning Strike and ymlad is the only skills needed.

I counted the pet skills, which you apparently need to fuel ymlad, which is needed for Stunning Strike. Sure, they have more uses, but you use two skill slots to get daze, BHA is still only one.

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Spear of fury just speeds it up but is unnecessary. I only brought scavengers to fuel ymlad. Being able to use it on recharge makes it a godly skill.

I understand your choices, given your preference for the spear, but, well, if you're using ymlad as interrupt - because you don't have your bow for savage shot and d-shot - and you bring a pet for e-managment to fuel ymlad, then you are taking the long way for

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Also about them being hardly able to get anything through whilst dazed using a bow, let me point you through to a nice fact. You remember how IA was before they buffed it? It was crap. Why because you couldnt really control the interupts.

That's exactly why skills like d-shot and savage shot are considered better then the old IA and choking gas. You don't use daze (only) for the interrupt-on-hit but ...

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... What does dazed in HM do? It increases the cast time to that of a normal caster, and makes it so that attacking interupts spells. That is no different then the old IA without party support. Interupting on average every .75 seconds from spear & pet both under IAS has a far greater chance of stopping them then a bow master does.

Well, no. Your spear and pet will randomly interrupt on hits, and never neatly on the ideal .75 seconds. A bow master with pet can reach an average interval similar (though slightly longer) to that of a spear/pet combo. The bow master however has not only this random interrupting, he has the advantage of being able to use skills with a fixed activation time that will land the interrupting hit on command - with daze to compensate the casting time back to normal. You can not do that with a spear.

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... BHA has a high miss chance from range, or u need to get into melee range for it.

Not really, don't stay on full bouw range, get closer (like spear distance) and don't use it when they're moving or kiting, when casting is a good moment.

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Things die so fast in pve, that you only need shorterm shutdown to win. R/P can get atleast 2, probably three casters in the single mob per fight. Ranger will be lucky to get 2, never 3.

Leave the /P and bring /Me for Epidemic.

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These are facts. Whilst bow DPS can be greater then spear DPS, it takes devoting a whole bar too, and is not worth it.

Well, no, not fact but opinion. You'd normally use only a skill or two for damage, more quickly gets useless. It's the spear /P that from the nature of it's choice to use a spear makes it harder to do anything else.

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...its simply BETTER.

Likely because you don't know how to properly run a ranger, which is also why you have to resort to words like 'excrement' rather then truly countering an argument.

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Originally Posted by Tyla

To add on, using a Conjure disallows you the ability to be buffed by skills such as Barbs, Orders etc. while taking up your secondary which can be used on something such as Epidemic or something.

Last time I looked Epidemic wasn't a Paragon skill, not sure how you want to bring Epidemic on a spear chucker? But a bow ranger can bring a ranger skill, like Read the Wind (which isn't available for a spear) if a conjure is not usefull and go /Me for Epidemic. A choice that is not available to a R/P.

Amy Awien · Nov 03, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

... Yes you do a little more damage per hit, but the lack of a decent IAS means ur hitting once every 2 seconds. A spear with 33% IAS is iirc 1 attack per 1.25 seconds. + the useful ness of a pet means that it does more damage. 2 spear attacks + atleast 1 pet attack is more damage then a bow attack with conjure. Try this.

A bow with 33% IAS hits every 1.33 seconds. Why would you not use an IAS with a bow. You can bring a pet with a bow. You have the same options available, why not use them?

Moonlit Azure · Nov 03, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

wanna cookie for judging a build based on what its primary profession is meant to do instead of its effectiveness?

So your saying you'll abandon a primary profession's purpose just to do something another profession can do better?

Luminarus · Nov 03, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

That's just bs, we weren't discussing specific builds but the general options and possibilities available and when you pretend those were meant to be tossed into one build you are using false logic. It's not those suggestions that failed, but the way you deliberately pulled them out of context to obscure the argument.

Take out needling shot, and bring in sloth hunters. My build is still SUPERIOUR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

As for 'excrement' ... thanks for your wonderful choice of words, it certainly shows what kind of person you are more then that it establishes you as knowledgeable.

Oh sorry, would u rather I said Shit?

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Scavenger's is a BM skill.

I was refering to the spear BUILD not the spear attacks ffs.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Deep wound aside, the +30-ish on an (elite) attack skill is about the best a spear has to offer and there's only one skill that offers it. Bow attacks can offer +damage, the expertise shots for instance come with a +36 - for a 2E cost (one if you know how to use Expert Focus), Sloth can bring in +50-ish and combines well with Daze and there's always Triple Shot to apply your conjures and preps thrice. Choice enough.

The bow attacks ur refering too are half range, which you conveniantly left out. They are also still subject to slow bow attack rate. Furthermore, spamming those skills rules out the ability to interupt because you cant interupt a skill if ur in the middle of casting. Sloths is nice, no argument here. Triple Shot is nice too, but has no benefit to a BHA build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

You can get Deep Wound from a PvE skill, similar to how your spear build uses a long recharge and energy expensive PvE skill for the condition required for Stunning.

YMLAD interupts, cripples, does about the same damage as sloth hunters shot AND immobilizes an enemy for 20% of the time. YMLAD is one of the more powerful pve skills, especially when its able to be spammed on recharge.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

The two seconds usually fit in between some recharge here or there and at least with BHA you don't have to wait until your adrenaline is charged up. And yes, I can spam bow attacks.

Run in, YMLAD, Spear of Fury, thats 6 adrenaline + 130 damage instantly. By the time they get up, 1 hit and they can be dazed. You can then further daze other characters as it charges. If bringing a orders, for more damage you also double the rate at which it charges (dark fury).

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Nope, bow has 5 HP vamp strings and ends up getting a bit more out of it, 1.75 HP/s vs 1.0

The spear build is running a permanent 33% IAS. That means hitting every second. A bow's fastest attack is once per 2 seconds. Somehow 3*2 seems bigger then 5 to me. I must really suck at maths...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Since you're making it a popularity contest, pvxWiki doesn't list many good spear R/P builds for PvE, not one I think. I don't think that is because they're so hot in PvE and nobody realizes it, but because they aren't so great (they do have them for PvP).

Last time I checked B/P still worked, nerf or not. The pets and the minions keep the baddies away. And they also trigger the orders and curses. There's also nothing like it using spears.

In PVP theres NO pet + bow builds, in PvE they are only used in barrage pet as a tank. The builds we are using they actually deal damage. And if ur judging it by pvx wiki, then your points are even worse then i previously though.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Bow + Pet is more viable as spear + pet and if there's no good bow/pet build, there's no good spear + pet build. Well, maybe that Hero Battle build has some use, in Hero Battles.

Have u seen the Enraged Beast builds in RA and TA. The heal as one build is good for HB but thats it. There are other builds that work in other areas.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Most ranger builds still use bows. If there's another weapon it's scythes. And a few Hammers. But not spears.
Adrenaline sounds nice, but it never seems to make it.

This was in reference to all PET based builds...

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Really, the norn skill is too expensive as interrupt, you get two Savage Shot's for it's energy cost, and they have a lower recharge.

Savage does jack crap if you miss, and YMLAD as I said earlier locks them down for 2 seconds. 80 ARMOR IGNORING DAMAGE + Instant Interupt + Cripple. This CANNOT be compared to savage shot, as in any build that can afford to spam YMLAD it will be better then Savage (especially since they cast faster in HM the damage isnt certain. Im also not 100% sure if savages damage can hit on a dazed target for the same reason u cant d-shot a dazed target.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I counted the pet skills, which you apparently need to fuel ymlad, which is needed for Stunning Strike. Sure, they have more uses, but you use two skill slots to get daze, BHA is still only one.

Heard of teams? If ur the only person with a condition on ur team theres something no right. Its ncie to start off with to guarantee the spear of fury, however after that, mots things are still crippled, and ur team has started dumping conditions.

+ the pet IMPROVES dazed, so its not a wasted slot in the slightest. Yes the build is designed to make the most of dazing a caster. Does this mean that its crap because its focused? No it means its GOOD at what it does.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I understand your choices, given your preference for the spear, but, well, if you're using ymlad as interrupt - because you don't have your bow for savage shot and d-shot - and you bring a pet for e-managment to fuel ymlad, then you are taking the long way for

YMLAD Is not just an interupt, its good damage. Im bringing the pet to fuel a permanent IAS + more interupts on dazed. It just so happens that scavengers allows insane enery spammage, so y not utilise that to its fullest by spamming 80 damage, and knockdown and cripple every 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

That's exactly why skills like d-shot and savage shot are considered better then the old IA and choking gas. You don't use daze (only) for the interrupt-on-hit but ...

But with a pet they literally cant get anything off. Yes its random hits, but its ALOT MORE random hits, 3 hits for every one of urs. This means they cant get anything with an initail cast time of 1 second off (before HM bonus's, eg orison). Anything with a 3/4 Cast gets interupted about 80% of the time, 1/2 about 50%, and 1/4 about 25% of the time. This far outshines the bow's dazed.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Well, no. Your spear and pet will randomly interrupt on hits, and never neatly on the ideal .75 seconds. A bow master with pet can reach an average interval similar (though slightly longer) to that of a spear/pet combo. The bow master however has not only this random interrupting, he has the advantage of being able to use skills with a fixed activation time that will land the interrupting hit on command - with daze to compensate the casting time back to normal. You can not do that with a spear.

Fine, bring the spear attacks with cast times. I just find that the average interupts is more then enough. As well as this a spear interupts every 1 second, whilst the pet every 1.33 seconds. That means that once every 4 seconds will they be able to get out something with a .75second cast time, and only if they cast at the precise right moment.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Not really, don't stay on full bouw range, get closer (like spear distance) and don't use it when they're moving or kiting, when casting is a good moment.

They cant kite whilst knocked down or crippled. Spear has a shield so ur more tanky. Spear will rarely miss even at full range. Moving in closer means less time attacking, or u stay there where ur more likely to get hit. Rangers arent meant to be frontliners. They can do it, but its not their primary job.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Leave the /P and bring /Me for Epidemic.

Epidemic isnt that great. The aoe is really small, and not worth it. At which point, youve sacrificed the conjure u were so proud of earlier, so ur doing jack all damage. + You dont get to interupt them unless using volley (which slows down ur overall attack speed if used on recharge, for extremely random interupts).

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Well, no, not fact but opinion. You'd normally use only a skill or two for damage, more quickly gets useless. It's the spear /P that from the nature of it's choice to use a spear makes it harder to do anything else.

Ok, so using damage focuses skills are good, but not in higher numbers. What if you do both? Adrenaline Gain + Damage. Interupt/Cripple/Knockdown + Damage. Energy Gain + Damage. Daze + Damage. Merciless Spear is the only 'damage only' skill on my bar. And that could be replaced easily if theres another source of damage on the bar.

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Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Because you don't know how to properly run a ranger.

I know how to properly run a ranger, I know their strenghts and weaknesses I know how to use their strengths to their advantage and how to avoid their weaknesses. This personal attack is uncalled for. I have been using facts from game mechanics, data AND TRIALS to try to explain to you why R/P is better for dazed then using BHA.

2 Things I want to finish one. 1) Have you ever tried a R/P Stunning Strike build? and 2) Since you want to compare builds post a BHA build to compare to mine. Rather then constantly listing skills that are good/better then mine. Post a build so that we can actually discuss this in a fair manner.

Luminarus · Nov 03, 2008, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

A bow with 33% IAS hits every 1.33 seconds. Why would you not use an IAS with a bow. You can bring a pet with a bow. You have the same options available, why not use them?

You try and make a decent bow build using BHA and a pet. If you can good on you. But using a 2 15 energy skills on bar that has a three attribute split isnt very good. The reason most people dont run IAS on bows is because there arent many good ones. Theres ED which takes ur elite. Rapid Fire which consumes ur preparation, NRA which is expensive on a bow based build, Tigers Fury which is 25% and removes all non attacks from ur build. You can go into ur secondary fine, but if ur secondary is locked for an IAS, why not just use /P for an IAS and a better damage weapon. I love bows, and I do BHA often. However, /P is a better build FROM EXPERIENCE NOT THEORY.

EDIT: Forgot Lightning Reflexes, but its not permanent.

Amy Awien · Nov 03, 2008, 11:27 AM // 11:27

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Originally Posted by Luminarus

... Oh sorry, would u rather I said Shit?

If that is the only level you communicate on.

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... This personal attack is uncalled for. ...

You started the shit so don't complain when you get the favor returned. If you remain decent, so will I.

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Originally Posted by Luminarus

You try and make a decent bow build using BHA and a pet. If you can good on you. But using a 2 15 energy skills on bar that has a three attribute split isnt very good.

A 15E ranger skill costs 7~8 under normal expertise which is actually less then a 10E norn skill. It's really not harder to make a good pet and bow build then a spear and bow build, they both have daze and the same IAS available. They both have three attribute lines to take care of, but the bow has runes available.

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The reason most people dont run IAS on bows is because there arent many good ones.

You have exactly the same IAS skills available when using a bow as when using spears, the /P has no better IAS to offer then what is available from the Ranger primary.

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.... why not just use /P for an IAS and a better damage weapon

Eh, and what Paragon skill would offer your primary ranger a better IAS then is available from the ranger line?

The reason people don't run IAS with their bow is because they have little use for it, which is because DPS isn't as important as interrupts, which is also why they don't throw spears with their rangers.

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Originally Posted by Luminarus

The bow attacks ur refering too are half range, which you conveniantly left out.

Meh, spears aren't exactly long ranged either, are they.

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They are also still subject to slow bow attack rate.

You can use IAS with a bow too. Not only that, IAS also effects the bonus damage from preparations.

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Furthermore, spamming those skills rules out the ability to interupt because you cant interupt a skill if ur in the middle of casting.

You have to be careful when to use what, but yes, you can't spam attacks while watching for an opportunity. But the bow at least gives you the option to interrupt, spear doesn't offer anything comparable.

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YMLAD interupts, cripples, does about the same damage as sloth hunters shot AND immobilizes an enemy for 20% of the time.

I like it too and I also bring it if I can fit it in. It fills many purposes but it can not replace Savage Shot (or D-Shot), to expensive, long recharge.

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The spear build is running a permanent 33% IAS. That means hitting every second. A bow's fastest attack is once per 2 seconds. Somehow 3*2 seems bigger then 5 to me. I must really suck at maths...

Maybe you do, but your fail is in not applying the same IAS with a bow that you do with the spear and when the 2 seconds become 1.33 ... 5 > 4, isn't it?

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In PVP theres NO pet + bow builds,

You don't see your R/P anywhere in PvP. There are some R/P pet builds for RA, TA and Hero Battles.

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in PvE they are only used in barrage pet as a tank

And you don't see R/P pet builds at all.

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The builds we are using they actually deal damage. And if ur judging it by pvx wiki, then your points are even worse then i previously though.

It's an independent source and at least it reflects the opinion and popularity of these builds. You brought the 'popularity argument' into the discussion.

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Heard of teams?

Yes, and they bring skills and conditions too. Stunning still needs a condition applied though, and it requires adrenaline being build up, these preconditions will usually be met, but BHA has none. Each of these has it's drawbacks.

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+ the pet IMPROVES dazed, so its not a wasted slot in the slightest. Yes the build is designed to make the most of dazing a caster.

You now switch to a solo perspective, in one statement you're using your team to provide conditions, and now it's only you using pet and IAS for an increased hit rate to interrupt a dazed target.

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YMLAD Is not just an interupt, its good damage. Im bringing the pet to fuel a permanent IAS + more interupts on dazed. ...

And nothing in this scheme does not apply to a bow.

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But with a pet they literally cant get anything off. Yes its random hits, but its ALOT MORE random hits, 3 hits for every one of urs.

This is where your math fails again.

Spear, 25% IAS (NRA) => .88 atck/sec
Bow, 25% IAS (NRA) => .67 atck/sec
Pet, 25% IAS (NRA) => .62 atck/sec

Pet + Spear: 1.5 atck/sec
Pet + Bow: 1.39 atck/sec

Now where is the factor 3? It looks more like 1.08 to me.

Have you really never thought about using NRA for your bow?

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... Epidemic isnt that great.

No? People seem to like it with BHA, you don't have the option when you're bound to /P.

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At which point, youve sacrificed the conjure u were so proud of earlier, so ur doing jack all damage.

Read the Wind or Expert Focus is enough, and you always have those for your bow, no matter what secondary.

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You dont get to interupt them unless using volley

Pet, team, minions. It's an alternative.

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Adrenaline Gain + Damage.

You're looking for daze and you need adrenaline to fuel Stunning, the skill conveniently does both and it's the one that makes Stunning Strike feasible. True enough, the bar seems to be able to daze well and use it's effect, as designed.

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... I have been using facts from game mechanics ...

But from your remarks it seems to me like you overlooked the option to use NRA with your bow.

Luminarus · Nov 03, 2008, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Im pulling out of this discussion. Ur brain obviously fails, so no point in arguing with the grand canyon.

Amy Awien · Nov 03, 2008, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Yeah, right, whine some more about personal attacks, hypocrite.

Orange Milk · Nov 03, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Wow, just WOW what an argument.

Anyway.......

Though I find your argument compeling Amy I do see where you have left out crutial information.

When you did your "Spear vs Bow/conjure" you left out the pet damage. It out damages Bow/conjure in dps. Compare the full builds of both builds please, ya know, apples to apples.

When you complained that Sacvanger's was a BM skill, you neglected to note that Conjures were not Ranger Skills.

R/P pet buils with a Barbs/Mark of Pain Necro on the team tear things to peices.

For those of you agruing so:

NO, an R/P will never compare to a Bow as far as interupting or Dazing. Stunning is a nice skill, but with the adren build up chances are the skills that really need interupted via Daze have already been cast, unless it's a monk then it becomes a finnishing move. And the interupting spear skill is conditional. DShot is a God skill walking amongst mear noraml skills.

Spreading conditions, the other thing Bow Rangers do, is VERY easy with an R/P. Apply Poison + Barbed Spear @ 2 Addren. And NO, you do not need a 4 att split to make Apply work. At the attack speed and "tab" rate you have you will be reapplying poison and bleeding fast enough that you don't need anything more than just your left over points. Plus there's blazing spear, not the damage of burning, but with a 33% IAS has the ability to be used more often. And Poison Bite.

Bow Rangers and R/P Spear chuckers do different things. Theres no need to compare the shit out of them. It's like saying "Yeah well your 4x4 gets shit gas milage compared to my Jeta so your Truck sucks" My truck is not ment for gas mileage, lets see your Jeta haul some luber through a construction site then go mudding. SEE MY POINT? If your in a group with 2 mesmers and they say "We need Big Damage, not caster shut down" A Spearchuck is a VERY good option. IF interupting/Daze is needed, I would ALWAYS take the Bow Ranger.

But eh, I play for fun, I typically go R/W with an Axe in PvE, cause it's PvE it's not hard, I play for fun.

In PvP, you gotta have that DShot, unless it's HB, then R/P see ALOT of play. Sometimes I run a team of 4 of them.

Super Igor · Nov 03, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

You are misrepresenting the findings from my calculations, I've shown that there are better options then spears when you want to increase damage output of your ranger.

You shown nothing apart that you suck at this game and are not worthy of anything but being hated and neglected by community tbh.

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What's 'unfair' about using /E for a conjure? You're promoting /P and spears. You have a choice for your secondary and if /P is fair, so is /E.

Because you were counting base auto-attack damage, not how much more damage a bow would deal with a damage buff, besides conjure bha is a prety bad build if you ask me. It is also funny how you magically left out pet damage, bet it screwed a lot of things for you eh?

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Why is /E and using a skill to boost damage per hit unfair, or different from using attack skills? With a bow at least you have the option to use preps and conjures to boost your damage, a choice you may not have with a spear but that is the consequence of choosing a spear as weapon, fair and unfair have nothing to do with it.

It is unfair because you were counting base auto-attack damage, ok, if you want to count bonus damage then why have you left out pet damage? Obviously spear with a pet, + damage from attacks, ability to trigger hexes/orders and ias deals far more damage than your conjure bha.

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If it's important for some hexes and conjures aren't an option, you can use Read the Wind or Expert Focus and still get better damage.

Why are you spending so many skill slots just to make your bha deal enough auto-attack damage and still R/P is better.

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There's nothing ugly about using three attributes, if damage with a conjure on an 11/10/10 is better then from a 12/12 without it, then why not use it? Because it's ugly? How does that make sense?

You got it wrong dumass. Three attribute spread is obviously ok but thanks to the 10 att conjure your bha wont be able to take any good prep or utility like stride, troll and apply poison, e.g. looses an entire skill line just to have a conjure, besides only noobs run 13 expertise on bha.

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It's too bad that your favourite R/P is only meh in HM, but that is it's reality. The effectiveness of a spear R/P depends on it's base damage in combination with a high firing rate, and the obscene AL in HM screws up that base damage.

no u, dont blame a good build if you fail at pve...rofl, thought it was impossible though.

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That's just bs, we weren't discussing specific builds but the general options and possibilities available and when you pretend those were meant to be tossed into one build you are using false logic. It's not those suggestions that failed, but the way you deliberately pulled them out of context to obscure the argument.

We were comparing a bha ranger to R/P spearchucker who does the job better, I think it was obvious but now you are telling me that in reality we are comparing R/P to a moebius blossom sin? With this you have proven that you have no idea at all what you are talking about and all of your preceeding posts were shit to get +1 to your post count.

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As for 'excrement' ... thanks for your wonderful choice of words, it certainly shows what kind of person you are more then that it establishes you as knowledgeable.

Thanks for showing us what kind of shitter you are ups. :>

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If that is the only level you communicate on.

ups, stop contradicting yourself.

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You started the shit so don't complain when you get the favor returned. If you remain decent, so will I.

what? Youre the only person complaining about R/P on this site ignoring all the evidence you have been given by players known to be good, and who are you?

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It's really not harder to make a good pet and bow build then a spear and bow build, they both have daze and the same IAS available.

Omg stop being bad, any bow/pet build apart from b/p.

Eh, and what Paragon skill would offer your primary ranger a better IAS then is available from the ranger line?

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The reason people don't run IAS with their bow is because DPS isn't as good as interrupts, which is also why they throw spears with their rangers to deal damage.

Fix'd it for you.

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Meh, spears aren't exactly long ranged either, are they.

longer than half-ranged stuff, LOL. + Spears are much more accurate.

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You can use IAS with a bow too. Not only that, IAS also effects the bonus damage from preparations.

Even with ias you wont make BHA deal a lot of damage, also, no pet.

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But the bow at least gives you the option to interrupt, spear doesn't offer anything comparable.

Ever heard of stunning strike? Also, spear deals massive damage, bows dont offer anything comparable.

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It fills many purposes but it can not replace Savage Shot (or D-Shot), to expensive, long recharge.

D-shot isnt really that usefull in pve because nothing would take 20 seconds to kill unless you suck at this game. Spammable interrupts are far better choice. And stop showing us how much of a terrible player you are, ymlad is one of the most imba skills for pve that acts as snare, damage, kd and instant interrupt, imo ymlad > savage shot.

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You don't see your R/P anywhere in PvP.

Omg, dude, l2p. Okay okay, lets go HB ok? I will wun three R/P cappers and you run your bow pet shit guess who will win?

Anyway, I am tired of replying to your fail, I think everyone has already agreed on you being another terrible player plaguing the genepool happy now?
As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink, we have given you evidence, facts all the help you need to become a better player, sadly you obviously want to stay in a state you are now so i dont care anymore, fail less.

Tyla · Nov 03, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Last time I looked Epidemic wasn't a Paragon skill, not sure how you want to bring Epidemic on a spear chucker? But a bow ranger can bring a ranger skill, like Read the Wind (which isn't available for a spear) if a conjure is not usefull and go /Me for Epidemic. A choice that is not available to a R/P.

Last time I looked I was talking about the BHA / Conjure build you keep going on about. How can you get Conjure on an R/P again? Oh, that's right, you can't.

Rhamia Darigaz · Nov 03, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

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Originally Posted by Moonlit Azure

So your saying you'll abandon a primary profession's purpose just to do something another profession can do better?

no. i'm saying that if, for example, i say a dmg ranger build is bad it's not becasue it's a dmg ranger who should be interrupting, it's becasue it's a dmg ranger build that does bad domage.

Orange Milk · Nov 03, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Again, WOW, just WOW.

And I got a 2 week ban not long ago and nothing I said was near as bad as what has been said in this argument.

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Super Igor
D-shot isnt really that usefull in pve because nothing would take 20 seconds to kill unless you suck at this game. Spammable interrupts are far better choice.

You have angered Melandru for insulting the single greatest skill a Ranger has, infact it's one of the top 10 greatest skills in this game.

Like I said, BHA Bow Ranger and R/P Spearchucker are two different builds that have two different uses, no point in argueing until your heads explode.

Fay Vert · Nov 03, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

D-shot isnt really that usefull in pve

Got to doubt the credibility of anyone who can post this.

I'd swear half the posters in this thread never played a ranger!

Close thread please, its long past any value (should have been closed on first post actually)