Curse

Orange Milk · Dec 02, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth
I heard the optimal way to play PvE is to kill the enemies. Distracting does not kill enemies.

Changing out your armor for ice imps is retarded. Waste of inventory space and/or money for something you shouldn't need unless you suck at the game.

If you have higher armor vs a Foe you take less damage, if you take less damage you can spend less time and energy healing and more time and energy killing. And as you say, Killing is the optimal way to play PvE.

Thanks for proving me right and yourself bad at the game, must be nice to go through life carefree and stupid.

Also, DShot does kill enemies, if you know how to use it right, I assume you don't and I shall carry on with my day.

Amy Awien · Dec 02, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Well, 3 PvE skills straight off. ... Pop in 3 damage skills (high single target damage, an AoE damage, a general use spam one),

Which 3 high damage bow attacks do you have in mind, on top of the PvE skills? And where do you propose to get the energy from? Bow attacks are not a problem on their own, but few PvE skills have their cost reduced by expertise and most cost 10 or more energy.

Quote:

maybe even a 4th if energy gives room.

And even a fourth bow attack? What selection of skills did you have in mind, considering that most damage oriented bow attacks recharge in less then 8 seconds?

Quote:

That's already got you to 6-7/8 skills. Now you will probably want some kind of utility like mending touch, BHA for certain areas, maybe throw dirt.

Mending Touch ... ? You were trying to argue that bringing interrupts is a bad idea because the skill slots are better used for high damage attacks. And then you suggest ... Mending Touch, or throw dirt? That is not very consistent in following the main philosophy behind your build design.

If I had to choose, I'd prefer D-Shot over Mending Touch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

... Which can include action control - but rather the active form (where the player decides when the foes will be or not be doing an action - KD for instance) ...

Action control? I am interested to hear how you control their actions. Or are you referring to their obvious reactive responses to your own actions, which you also can use when you bring interrupts.

Quote:

If you are waiting to interrupt - you aren't spamming attacks.

In some situations spamming attacks is fine, others are better handled with an interrupt or two. When you bring the interrupts you at least have that choice. But, more importantly, I find that time and effort I put into directing H&H, together with an occasional interrupt, has a better payoff then a couple of damage skills.

Celeborn10 · Dec 02, 2008, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Maybe I'm just a masochist but I don't have PvE skills on my bar. I like to think of PvE as a testground for builds and improving my skills for PvP. Then again I like to use Concussion Shot over BHA in normal. If you are taking the time to make PvE an enjoyable challenge, it becomes really satisfying to Dshot key skills.

On the other hand, if you want a higher mission success rate in HM you would be well-advised to (ab)use every advantage you're given and ignore Dshot. With other players you are obligated to bring an optimal bar and play it well. Dshot's effect in a human HM party is negligible and doesn't fulfill as good a role as PvE skills would do.

Fay Vert · Dec 02, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Changing out your armor for ice imps is retarded. Waste of inventory space and/or money for something you shouldn't need unless you suck at the game.

I suppose you don't even bother with armour? You shouldn't need it unless you suck at the game :P

Maybe you just suck at posting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Until you can find an answer to this Distracting Shot is at best sub-optimal in regular HM play.

DShot is excellent for skill spammers. Even dazed, in HM these mobs will get their RoF/WoH etc out. When you have a group with two of these healer spammers DShot is really what you need.

Or do you prefer to wait until they rn out of energy?

The Meth · Dec 02, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

If you have higher armor vs a Foe you take less damage, if you take less damage you can spend less time and energy healing and more time and energy killing. And as you say, Killing is the optimal way to play PvE.

Thanks for proving me right and yourself bad at the game, must be nice to go through life carefree and stupid.

Spend less time healing and more time killing? What? Are you talking about your monk getting extra wand time in between healing? Yeah, you might do 5 DPS more with that. In return you have to have 10 sets of armor or spend 1k gold to swap insignia's out for every area. Yeah, you get extra damage, but the hassle makes it stupid. The time you save is less then the time you lost screwing around just so your armor was .1% better for the area, not to mention the gold you spent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Also, DShot does kill enemies, if you know how to use it right, I assume you don't and I shall carry on with my day.

Know how to use it right? What the hell does that mean? You use it to interrupt things, there is no hidden secret to using it. And it sure does not kill enemies in HM unless you have godlike reflexes able to interrupt heals consistently which are casting in under .5 seconds. If you are that good of an interrupter what are you doing playing PvE? You would be the best PvP ranger in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Which 3 high damage bow attacks do you have in mind, on top of the PvE skills? And where do you propose to get the energy from? Bow attacks are not a problem on their own, but few PvE skills have their cost reduced by expertise and most cost 10 or more energy.

[Save Yourselves!] - no energy
[Great Dwarf Weapon] 10e, but RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO it, the skill is awesome if people cast it on each other.
[Cry of Pain] See GDW^
[Pain Inverter] 10e again, but nigh-instant kill of any AoE enemy and a kill in about 6-10 seconds of everything else. Definitely worthwhile.
[Ebon Battle Standard of Honor] [Ebon battle standard of wisdom] [ebon battle standard of courage] 10e, but 1 use lasts an entire battle. Granted, outside of charr areas only Honor is good.
[Finish Him!] 10e, but instant killing an enemy when they have about 40% health left with a shout is cool

[I Am the Strongest!] 5e, every 20 seconds, easy.
There are some others, but these are about all I generally use.

You can find any combination of 3 of those that will work out. Also, I assume every ranger worth their salt is going to have a zealous bow to swap to when using their AoE (Barrage, volley, IA). With those two you have more then enough energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

And even a fourth bow attack? What selection of skills did you have in mind, considering that most damage oriented bow attacks recharge in less then 8 seconds?

Sorry, when I say "Bow Attack" I also include the prep. Should call it "Offensive non-pve skills", but thats a bit of a mouthful. As before, a single target damage skill (sloth hunter's, point blank shot, dual shot). AoE (barrage, volley, IA) and a spammable (point blank, Body Shot, just about anything with 5e really). Your right, past 3 actually bow attack skills you would just be repetitive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Mending Touch ... ? You were trying to argue that bringing interrupts is a bad idea because the skill slots are better used for high damage attacks. And then you suggest ... Mending Touch, or throw dirt? That is not very consistent in following the main philosophy behind your build design.

Yes, I said you want damage in PvE. You can't do much damage while blinded. Therefore if in an area with blind, mending touch = more damage. Now, distracting shot can ideally interrupt healing skills, but in HM you aren't going to be able to do that. If you are, I refer you to my previous statement towards Orange Milk.

Throw dirt is just a panic skill, it doesn't sizably reduce DPS over the 1 or 2 seconds it takes to use (unlike waiting around trying to predict an enemy healing that you might have a 25% chance of actually getting). On the other hand, it will save the ass of the pug when the monk has 3-4 warriors training them. Distracting shot in that case? Oh wait, that won't stop the 3 warriors. Since when have casters really killed anyone in PvE other then bosses and Fire AoEs everyone wants to stand in anyway? I wouldn't bring it with a decent group, but for PuGs it works well. If your secondary is open Enfeebling blood is usually better unless attributes are tight.

Again, I'm not saying Distracting Shot is a bad skill. Mending is a bad skill. Distracting shot is a great skill in PvP that is made considerably less useful (but not useless) due to the structure of PvE, specifically HM PvE.

upier · Dec 02, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Action control? I am interested to hear how you control their actions. Or are you referring to their obvious reactive responses to your own actions, which you also can use when you bring interrupts.

Like I said - KD.
If they are on their backs they aren't casting. And a D-Slasher is able to keep guys constantly on their back. No need to wait for the right moment to interrupt their skill as you do with a reactive skill - you make EVERY moment the right one to prevent foes from doing things you don't want them doing.
Other options would of course include superb skills such as Blackout - but that one MIGHT be a bit too strong for PvE ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

In some situations spamming attacks is fine, others are better handled with an interrupt or two. When you bring the interrupts you at least have that choice. But, more importantly, I find that time and effort I put into directing H&H, together with an occasional interrupt, has a better payoff then a couple of damage skills.

Of course.
The issue is that situations where spamming attacks wins are MUCH more common then the situations which are better handled with an interrupt.

Amy Awien · Dec 02, 2008, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Like I said - KD.
If they are on their backs they aren't casting. And a D-Slasher is able to keep guys constantly on their back.

Usually there's more then just one in the more interesting situations. What I am curious about is how the D-Slasher switches to a target half an aggro-bubble away, or more. Shadow step?

Although possible, perhaps, running a D-Slash on a R/W is not what I'd prefer.

Quote:

No need to wait for the right moment to interrupt their skill as you do with a reactive skill

Ah, that is how you defined active/reactive. Well, good luck with your R/W keeping one critter on it's butt.

Quote:

The issue is that situations where spamming attacks wins are MUCH more common then the situations which are better handled with an interrupt.

Perhaps, but, well, you see, I can bring attacks and interrupts and use whatever is more appropriate in a specific situation.

Charlotte the Harlot · Dec 03, 2008, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Its the best choice for a second interrupt but its way overrated, it really doesn't do anything as amazing as people make it out to be.

Bobby2 · Dec 03, 2008, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

word twisting causing the eyes to bleed

upier, do not try arguing with this person

upier · Dec 03, 2008, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Usually there's more then just one in the more interesting situations. What I am curious about is how the D-Slasher switches to a target half an aggro-bubble away, or more. Shadow step?

You still have 8 people in your party. So if such a situation were to arise - you can send one of the other guys to the second priority target. There is nothing stopping you from bringing multiple D-Slashers or Earthshakers. Even if you won't run into such situations. Those guys are REALLY good and will be worth the slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Although possible, perhaps, running a D-Slash on a R/W is not what I'd prefer.
Ah, that is how you defined active/reactive. Well, good luck with your R/W keeping one critter on it's butt.

No, that's why people run Warriors. Because when you look at D-Slasher's ability to keep foes under control while at the same time still do what PvE is all about - massive damage, you see why they are superior.
They are the perfect example of the trade-off, in terms of shutdown/damage, that works. (Well if "works" should be read as "being completely and utterly overpowered" ...

.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Perhaps, but, well, you see, I can bring attacks and interrupts and use whatever is more appropriate in a specific situation.

And that's what I suggested from the start. Feel free to modify your builds given the challenges ahead and do not look at D-Shot as the skill that NEEDS to be on your PvE bar at all times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

upier, do not try arguing with this person

Amy Awien · Dec 03, 2008, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You still have 8 people in your party.

Exactly, and that is why I mostly leave doing the damage to them, while I choose their targets and disable some others, or get fresh coffee. Whatever I feel like.

Quote:

No, that's why people run Warriors.

I don't doubt that some do, but this is the ranger forum and warrior primary is rather off topic.

Quote:

And that's what I suggested from the start.

I thought you were arguing that D-Shot is redundant, even counterproductive, and is better replaced with something else?

Quote:

Feel free to modify your builds given the challenges ahead and do not look at D-Shot as the skill that NEEDS to be on your PvE bar at all times.

Well, I have tried to keep it off but the little bugger tends to sneak right back on there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

upier, do not try arguing with this person

You don't understand the purpose of this thread.

upier · Dec 03, 2008, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Exactly, and that is why I mostly leave doing the damage to them, while I choose their targets and disable some others, or get fresh coffee. Whatever I feel like.
I don't doubt that some do, but this is the ranger forum and warrior primary is rather off topic.

Already covered:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

No, that's why people run Warriors. Because when you look at D-Slasher's ability to keep foes under control while at the same time still do what PvE is all about - massive damage, you see why they are superior.
They are the perfect example of the trade-off, in terms of shutdown/damage, that works. (Well if "works" should be read as "being completely and utterly overpowered" ...

.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I thought you were arguing that D-Shot is redundant, even counterproductive, and is better replaced with something else?

Once again - already covered:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yeah, I get that it's a sweet option if you want multiple interrupts, or if you are concerned about the cost of your skills.
Other then that - it just seems ... decent.

I am guessing you just missed that part.

The Meth · Dec 03, 2008, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

I suppose you don't even bother with armour? You shouldn't need it unless you suck at the game :P

Maybe you just suck at posting?

Because telling someone that carrying 10 different armor sets around is stupid because it only helps you survive .5% longer is totally the same as saying wearing no armor at all the whole time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

DShot is excellent for skill spammers. Even dazed, in HM these mobs will get their RoF/WoH etc out. When you have a group with two of these healer spammers DShot is really what you need.

Wait, you DAZE enemies and still can't shut them down? What the hell? I also have to remind you that if enemies are dazed d-shot's effect doesn't work, so savage is 10x better because it is reusable. And you sure weren't able to interrupt RoF (lol) or WoH before they were dazed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Or do you prefer to wait until they rn out of energy?

No, I prefer to wait until they run out of health. Takes about 5 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Name some skills that you can reliably interrupt in PvE HM and that aren't better countered with other skills that are much easier to use.

Until you can find an answer to this Distracting Shot is at best sub-optimal in regular HM play.

Still waiting for someone to point out a skill worth d-shotting (in HM). Talking about disrupting healing and crap is nice, but find a concrete example of something worth hitting. I've got nothing but Aegis so far.

Bobby2 · Dec 03, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

You don't understand the purpose of this thread.

You don't know how to properly argue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I thought you were arguing that D-Shot is redundant, even counterproductive, and is better replaced with something else?

If upier won't go that far, I will. Counterproductive in the sense that the precious slot could probably have been better spent on a more powerful and relevant skill.

Orange Milk · Dec 03, 2008, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth
Still waiting for someone to point out a skill worth d-shotting

Remember when I said you don't know how to use DShot effectivly? Well you just proved you don't by saying you have no idea what to interupt. Thanks again for proving my point.

@Upier

Are you now seriously saying that you would rather have a DSlasher in your party than someone with DShot? How can you claim that DShot is not worth bringing but DSlash is? Have you ever looked at these 2 skills? DSlash is a great skill, but DShot has a bigger up side, I do not get your statement. (upsides being 1/2 cast time and no need af adrenilin, wich means you can use it at the start of a battle when the enemy begins it spams)

MegaVolti · Dec 03, 2008, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Remember when I said you don't know how to use DShot effectivly? Well you just proved you don't by saying you have no idea what to interupt. Thanks again for proving my point.

Then please just name a single skill. He just asked for one and I'd also like to know

One skill used by enemies in PvE that is interruptable in HM and for which D-Shot would be better then e.g. Savage Shot.

The problem is not that interrupts are generally bad. They are good and can bring a benefit to your party. In PvP much more then in PvE but in PvE they still work.
The problem is that what makes D-Shot special is its 20s skill deactivation. That's totally awesome in PvP but for PvE it's useless. Especially in HM, since the interesting spells can not be interrupted with D-Shot there (WoH, SF) due to the reduced casting time.

Without the 20s skill deactivation, which is useless in PvE, D-Shot is just a Savage Shot without damage and with a longer recharge. Which makes it an inferior skill.

upier · Dec 03, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

@Upier

Are you now seriously saying that you would rather have a DSlasher in your party than someone with DShot? How can you claim that DShot is not worth bringing but DSlash is? Have you ever looked at these 2 skills? DSlash is a great skill, but DShot has a bigger up side, I do not get your statement. (upsides being 1/2 cast time and no need af adrenilin, wich means you can use it at the start of a battle when the enemy begins it spams)

[enraging charge] + [for great justice] => [Save Yourselves] + [dragon slash] + [Brawling Headbutt]
Or (and) [dark fury] on the necro.

(But I guess you joked, right?)

Bobby2 · Dec 03, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Without the 20s skill deactivation, which is useless in PvE, D-Shot is just a Savage Shot without damage and with a longer recharge. Which makes it an inferior skill.

Granted, it's cheaper.

Which would matter to those without Expertise.

The Meth · Dec 03, 2008, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Remember when I said you don't know how to use DShot effectivly? Well you just proved you don't by saying you have no idea what to interupt. Thanks again for proving my point.

In HM 75% of skills and 95% of defensive/heal skills are being cast in under .5 seconds. A ranger cannot interrupt .5 second skills consistently, and I would bet you couldn't get it half the time. Its not a matter of knowing how to use it, its a matter of reaction speed. D-shot takes .25 seconds to release the arrow, so that means that to interrupt a .5 second spell you need to click dshot within .25 seconds of the enemy starting a cast. Remember that there is lag and arrow travel distance, so in reality you might have .1 seconds or less to see the spell being cast, look at the spell icon, figure out if it is the right one to interrupt, then hit Dshot. Yeah. Good luck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

Are you now seriously saying that you would rather have a DSlasher in your party than someone with DShot? How can you claim that DShot is not worth bringing but DSlash is? Have you ever looked at these 2 skills? DSlash is a great skill, but DShot has a bigger up side, I do not get your statement. (upsides being 1/2 cast time and no need af adrenilin, wich means you can use it at the start of a battle when the enemy begins it spams)

wow, just wow. I'll stop arguing with the retard.

Dmitri3 · Dec 03, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

wow, just wow. I'll stop arguing with the retard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

I'm not really clear on definition of debate. Is it when all participants argue for endless hours and then in the end call everyone but themselves idiots?

It is. :-X //