Curse

maxxfury · Feb 23, 2010, 03:03 AM // 03:03

The topic about Orders..Unless you have a large compliment of physicals then imo you cant justify taking one..its really not worth it if you only have one or two physicals. Now if you have three, four or more..then is really shines. Otherwise you can get better results with something else..

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Do you even read? Seriously, wow.

3) We assume SY! because we actually read the first post. If you can't accept that, were done here.

the original question that started it all was

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxxfury

TLDR: If SY is covered in a NON tank n spank, whats the best dam bar a ranger can take now? melee or bow..

Yes it has been suggested that a second SY is a good option, obviously it is...(and for a 1p + H&H its easily the best option for a slot no doubt).
But the original Question assumes its covered already ^ i ast it afterall

So bar suggestions ect dont need to contain SY at a rigid rule ^

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 23, 2010, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It's the recharge that is 20 seconds, so it's 8 attacks every 20 seconds.

Technically if you use it before a battle and let it charge, then use it again during the battle, that adds up to a lot more then the numbers you had.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The D/N variant is irrelevant. You don't want him running into the frontlines.

uhh last time I checked, D/N used a staff.

maxxfury · Feb 23, 2010, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Technically if you use it before a battle and let it charge, then use it again during the battle, that adds up to a lot more then the numbers you had.

uhh last time I checked, D/N used a staff.

Aye, you can pre cast, and the buff its self never expires unless its used, so you cant really mess up casting it too early

Staff all the way..the D/n orders fails hard if it used a scythe..

Yasmine · Feb 23, 2010, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Wrong. I bet you never used that skill nor read wiki description ( lol @ you saying "ppl dont read" ). I dont even know from where did you get those 20 sec duration because that shout has no duration statement.
:

What he means is (ignoring asuran scan and similar) that you can't get more then 160 dmg from IATS within 20 secs without having it precasting (and in most situations, waiting for it to recharge before engaging mobs is a loss of time, though ofc it depends on density of foes, etc).

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Aye, you can pre cast, and the buff its self never expires unless its used, so you cant really mess up casting it too early

Actually, seems it expires after 7.5 hours

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Staff all the way..the D/n orders fails hard if it used a scythe..

Well, if the hero brings Dwayna's Touch, won't it run to frontline anyway? And if not, won't an E/N be better?

Amy Awien · Feb 23, 2010, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Swap Dwana's Touch for Imbue Health or Pious Restoration if the D/N is using it to heal frontliners. E/N can't bring the party heals, but could bring wards or curses.

Yasmine · Feb 23, 2010, 09:38 AM // 09:38

A little off topic: is there a thread comparing a D/N with a E/N? I can't seem to find it but I miss quite often things right in front of me

Tenebrae · Feb 23, 2010, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The D/N variant is irrelevant. You don't want him running into the frontlines.

I never said that D/N was a frontliner. I also said that is irrelevant because orders work for any kind of rangers so you can add them to the calculation or not . Thanks for pointing something i already said and soz , theres no need for you to tell me how orders work thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

It's just a shame that SoH doesn't work for ranged attacks.

Welcome to the club. I guess Anet thinks that attacking from a bow range isnt "honorable" lol .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

On the subject of SY:
No, it isn't necessary. Yes, in theory you can H/H every area of the game in HM without it (at least ones that you can take Henchmen into). However, this will be extremely difficult.
Not bringing Save Yourselves is throwing away one of the main advantages being a physical has.

You are mistaken. SY! makes some ( yes , only some , i would say 20% or less ) of HM zones/missions easier. Not bringing it just leaves you in the normal situation in HM wich all problems can be solved with proper agro , PS use and wise positioning/skillset selection.

Also let me point something obvious for you , physicals are ranged and melee. Attack rates and HITTING rates on each are bloody hell different .... and in this case , some got adren skills and boosts to gain adren ( P , GR ) and some dont ( R , A , D ). For SY! usage , i think rangers are the most unreliable class of all phys hitters and even if they werent , this thread is not about that , its about full DPS Ranger.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 23, 2010, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Yes I can say that, because it is true. Again,
please read Daesu's post. (OR heck, Axel's post above.)

ever heard of racway? ever heard of B/P farming in Tombs? dude where have you been for the past four years. if you don't like Orders then fine, but it is commonly used on physical teams (as is Strength of Honor, now that it has been buffed)

Quote:

Wrong. IATS does not stack. It adds a set 160 damage over 20 seconds REGARDLESS of how it's applied. Doing the math with IATS triggering on all barrage hits is absurdly illogical.

I will spell it out for you since we seem to have a communication problem. "Stack" means it has a cumulative effect with other skills and is not exclusive to them. Preparations do not stack, you can only have one active. Conjure does not stack with Orders, you can only take advantage of one or the other. Why does this matter? Some buffs do not "stack" with others, so you have to choose the ones that will work together. EBSoH and IATS stack with everything, they are untyped bonus damage that applies to any weapon you happen to be using, even wands. Are we all clear now?

re: triggering on all barrage hits, IATS *can* affect all arrows from Barrage, even a full 6-hit barrage. And of course it is going to get used up, but it will get used up no matter what attack skills you are using, and it will get used up if you put it on a Glass Arrows build as well. It helps both of them. I only mention IATS here because it would be (I think) a commonly used buff that a ranger might use to increase his damage no matter what build he is using. The specific buff skills used do not really matter, it turns out that the critical factor is the number of arrows in the air; in other words, more damage packets.

Quote:

Not nearly as many assumptions as you are making. SY! is a given because it models REAL gameplay situations. Not the "who cna get teh biggest number" game like you are playing.

But that is exactly the question you asked... how to get the biggest numbers; which build gives more DPS, Barrage or Glass Arrows.

SY is fine, I don't see how it is relevant here except that using it will necessarily mean fewer attack buffs that you can carry. You don't need all of those buffs for Barrage to be better than Glass Arrows, the main factor is being able to get two or more hits from each Barrage. SY does not affect the analysis at all, you can see from the math where the breakpoints are for one build to be better than the other. Use whichever is appropriate to the area you're in.

Quote:

Your math is completely wrong and irrelevant. For starters, you can immediately proc two or more packets with any number of skills and combinations in the time it would take to fire off barrage and recharge.
Why the heck would you compare a situation that is so irrelevant?

I am at a loss to understand what you mean here... do you think that Barrage has a slower activation time than other attack skills? Do you think it recharges slower? It has normal attack speed and recharges in 1 second, faster than almost anything. You are not going to be waiting for Barrage to recharge.

The only way that you can get more packets than barrage with one attack skill is Triple Shot, Dual Shot, and/or Forked Arrow, and that is only for the case where Barrage can't hit additional targets while the others deliver their full effect.

I suppose you might mean that with Sundering/Penetrating you can have faster attack speed than normal if you chain them with other attacks. That's true but both of those recharge in 4s, so you are going to be using autoattacks to fill in the blanks or bring even more attack skills. You're going to run out of energy pretty quick spamming 10e attack skills every second or two. You could use Marksman's Wager of course... but then no Glass Arrows and no +damage prep either.

Desert Rose · Feb 23, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

The specific buff skills used do not really matter, it turns out that the critical factor is the number of arrows in the air

For IATS the number of arrows doesn't matter, it cannot affect more than 8 arrows.
In 20 seconds you will have fired ~10 arrows with Glass Arrows, and 17,5 arrows with Barrage (2 hits each). You add the damage bonus of IATS to every attack of a Glass Arrow and Barrage ranger, but in reality 80% of all arrows of a Glass Arrow and only 50% of a Barrage ranger are affected by IATS.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 23, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

ever heard of racway? ever heard of B/P farming in Tombs? dude where have you been for the past four years. if you don't like Orders then fine, but it is commonly used on physical teams (as is Strength of Honor, now that it has been buffed)

Well Racway and Orders is obvious. Assuming you're a physical dealer yourself, that's AT LEAST 4/5 characters on your team dealing physical damage, and the synergy between orders then is obvious. I don't think anyone can argue that.

However not all physical dealing players play a physical heavy team. Some play balanced. Orders isn't too good in a balanced (2/3 physicals) scenario unless you're counting more on Dark Fury for, say, SY!. Honestly, Orders is more useful for Dark Fury than it is for OoP in certain scenarios.

Racway was designed to be ideally used with an imbagon. It's still pretty good for warriors, but lacks somewhat for other classes. It certainly isn't the end all H/H setup for any physical dealer. As a Ranger, you're typically firing a lot slower then other classes, even with 3/4 to 1 second attacks + aftercast, and you typically don't have any adrenal skills (unless you're slapping SY! on there for the hell of it), so using an orders hero probably isn't your best bet.

So, in short, Orders is only really good with probably 3+ physical dealers, but the exception being if you're trying to maintain SY! as much as possible, Dark Fury is always a good idea, and in that case you have no real reason to not take OoP

AtomicMew · Feb 23, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

ever heard of racway? ever heard of B/P farming in Tombs? dude where have you been for the past four years. if you don't like Orders then fine, but it is commonly used on physical teams (as is Strength of Honor, now that it has been buffed)

Racway is outdated. B/P is not H/H. Where have YOU been for the past 4 years? Obviously not doing anything difficult with H/H.

Quote:

re: triggering on all barrage hits, IATS *can* affect all arrows from Barrage, even a full 6-hit barrage. And of course it is going to get used up, but it will get used up no matter what attack skills you are using, and it will get used up if you put it on a Glass Arrows build as well. It helps both of them. I only mention IATS here because it would be (I think) a commonly used buff that a ranger might use to increase his damage no matter what build he is using. The specific buff skills used do not really matter, it turns out that the critical factor is the number of arrows in the air; in other words, more damage packets.

For IATS the number of arrows doesn't matter, it cannot affect more than 8 arrows.
In 20 seconds you will have fired ~10 arrows with Glass Arrows, and 17,5 arrows with Barrage (2 hits each). You add the damage bonus of IATS to every attack of a Glass Arrow and Barrage ranger, but in reality 80% of all arrows of a Glass Arrow and only 50% of a Barrage ranger are affected by IATS.

You flat out added IATS to each barrage hit, which is false, since it is a fixed amount of damage. Please don't try to weasle your way out of admitting your damage calc was amateurish at best.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 23, 2010, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

For IATS the number of arrows doesn't matter, it cannot affect more than 8 arrows.
In 20 seconds you will have fired ~10 arrows with Glass Arrows, and 17,5 arrows with Barrage (2 hits each). You add the damage bonus of IATS to every attack of a Glass Arrow and Barrage ranger, but in reality 80% of all arrows of a Glass Arrow and only 50% of a Barrage ranger are affected by IATS.

I think that is the wrong way of looking at it... it is more correct to say that IATS will always give +160 damage (20 x 8) no matter what build you use it with, and the deciding factor would be how quickly you can deliver that +160 damage. I'd argue that Barrage, Volley, Triple Shot, Dual Shot, etc. deliver that damage more quickly than anything else and thus are desirable skills to use. These may not be the best skills in all cases but they do have the advantage of time compression, e.g. more arrows per second.

If you want 100% coverage on every arrow then EBSoH and Favorable Winds are better (and Orders if you can bring it). These can be kept active almost all the time and they affect everyone in the group, not just you. Better for teams of rangers like the old school B/P Orders Tombs farming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Well Racway and Orders is obvious. Assuming you're a physical dealer yourself, that's AT LEAST 4/5 characters on your team dealing physical damage, and the synergy between orders then is obvious. I don't think anyone can argue that.

However not all physical dealing players play a physical heavy team. Some play balanced. Orders isn't too good in a balanced (2/3 physicals) scenario unless you're counting more on Dark Fury for, say, SY!. Honestly, Orders is more useful for Dark Fury than it is for OoP in certain scenarios.

Racway was designed to be ideally used with an imbagon. It's still pretty good for warriors, but lacks somewhat for other classes. It certainly isn't the end all H/H setup for any physical dealer. As a Ranger, you're typically firing a lot slower then other classes, even with 3/4 to 1 second attacks + aftercast, and you typically don't have any adrenal skills (unless you're slapping SY! on there for the hell of it), so using an orders hero probably isn't your best bet.

So, in short, Orders is only really good with probably 3+ physical dealers, but the exception being if you're trying to maintain SY! as much as possible, Dark Fury is always a good idea, and in that case you have no real reason to not take OoP

I am quite familiar with Orders, racway, etc. my main is a paragon.

orders, IATS, EBSoH and the other skills were brought up as ways to increase ranger DPS (or enhance physical damage dealers in general, but here we're only concerned with rangers). if you don't want to bring damage enhancement for your ranger then how would you suggest getting more DPS? If you have any better ideas please share with the class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Racway is outdated. B/P is not H/H. Where have YOU been for the past 4 years? Obviously not doing anything difficult with H/H.

lol. when you get your legendary vanquisher title come back and talk to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

For IATS the number of arrows doesn't matter, it cannot affect more than 8 arrows.
In 20 seconds you will have fired ~10 arrows with Glass Arrows, and 17,5 arrows with Barrage (2 hits each). You add the damage bonus of IATS to every attack of a Glass Arrow and Barrage ranger, but in reality 80% of all arrows of a Glass Arrow and only 50% of a Barrage ranger are affected by IATS.

You flat out added IATS to each barrage hit, which is false, since it is a fixed amount of damage. Please don't try to weasle your way out of admitting your damage calc was amateurish at best.

again with the personal attacks... sigh. amateur is when you don't have any real arguments to make and you resort to attacking the other person.

trcvrs if the numbers don't support your preconceived notions I'm sorry but it doesn't change anything. Remove IATS and you'll still see that Barrage beats glass arrows if you can hit 2+ targets. I calculated the buff damage that you would need to reach those breakpoints NO MATTER WHAT BUFF SKILLS YOU USE.

regarding IATS, it adds damage to barrage attacks, it adds damage to the glass arrows build, it helps both of them and it will run out after the same number of attacks no matter how you deliver them. i don't see how that makes the comparison unfair.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 23, 2010, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I am quite familiar with Orders, racway, etc. my main is a paragon.

orders, IATS, EBSoH and the other skills were brought up as ways to increase ranger DPS (or enhance physical damage dealers in general, but here we're only concerned with rangers). if you don't want to bring damage enhancement for your ranger then how would you suggest getting more DPS? If you have any better ideas please share with the class.

I'm not denying orders as a viable way to increase DPS, because that's stupid. All I'm saying is that their are other factors to consider than just yourself. I'd like to see where I said not to bring damage enhancements too lol. I even posted a build that had plenty of those.

Off the top of my head, N/Rt with Splinter Weapon and such would probably be more beneficial to your team than orders in a scenario with only a few physicals. Brutal weapon if you have no enchants. Barbs/MoP... slap some other skills on there to support your team (and even orders if you must, though necros aren't the best with orders per-say.)

I mean, if you want to edit your entire time just to make YOU and only you the best damage dealer evar, that's cool. All I'm saying is if you have a hero spamming orders with only two or three people who can actually take advantage of it, isn't a bit wasted?

Also, don't triple post, it's stupid.

Amy Awien · Feb 23, 2010, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

... if you don't want to bring damage enhancement for your ranger then how would you suggest getting more DPS? If you have any better ideas please share with the class.

It would be absurd to use a hero just to increase damage for your own character, the Orders concept needs a dedicated team, which is beyond the original scope of the thread.

So, what to bring when bringing an Orders hero is not beneficial for the whole team?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You gain SoH by going melee, but you are likely to lose EBSoH, since both energy and placement become problems when you try to put it on the front lines.

On the contrary, EBSoH is a reason to go melee, wielding a bow and then running into the frontline to place it where it's most effective (on the MM-bombs, pets and othe melee) is just ... weird.

AtomicMew · Feb 24, 2010, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

lol. when you get your legendary vanquisher title come back and talk to me.

Fail. I've had LVQ for years now, when it still meant something.

When you've done every dungeon in HM with H/H, come back and talk to me. I certainly don't need to be talked down to by someone who can't realize racway is dated.

Quote:

regarding IATS, it adds damage to barrage attacks, it adds damage to the glass arrows build, it helps both of them and it will run out after the same number of attacks no matter how you deliver them. i don't see how that makes the comparison unfair.

Except that's not what you did. You shouldn't have considered IATS in your calculation BAR NONE. It does not help both builds EQUALLY. With barrage, a smaller percentage of your arrows will have IATS buff, which means it is LESS effective on barrage builds.

Quote:

trcvrs if the numbers don't support your preconceived notions I'm sorry but it doesn't change anything. Remove IATS and you'll still see that Barrage beats glass arrows if you can hit 2+ targets. I calculated the buff damage that you would need to reach those breakpoints NO MATTER WHAT BUFF SKILLS YOU USE.

Except it doesn't, because you've completely ignored the fact that you can automatically get 2 hits in the time it takes to even activate and recharge barrage. Fail argument is fail.

Anyone who can theorycraft worth a damn can see straight away that a single target spiker will at the very LEAST be able to keep up with 2-target barrage. Straight away, this should be obvious, considering the a build capable of such has been posted in this thread already. The tipping point is probably somewhere between 2.5 and 3.5, depending on buffs. When you have some decent math, come back and talk.

MaaKotka · Feb 24, 2010, 12:32 PM // 12:32

You asked some calculations so here we go.

Theoretical DPS can be calculated like this:

(percentage damage bonuses * ( basic bow damage + numerical damage boosts) + life steal ) * number of arrows / time it takes to complete firing animation

percentage damage bonuses are Asuran Scan and By Ural's Hammer, but you need here percent on average so you can't simply use BUH:s 25% but you have to take that skills downtime in to consideration also. For the sake of simplicity I didn't take Asuran Scan's cast and aftercast in to calculations.

Basic bow damage is 10ish on average in HM.

Numerical damage boosts are +damage boosts and attack skills you use. Again when considering attack skills you have to calculate here some kind of average.

Life steal is vampiric bow string and OoV.

number of arrows is the number of arrows you shoot at the same time.

Time it takes to complete attack animation is how long it takes to fire an arrow and "reload". IAS affects here and with Barrage it is a bit complicated since IAS can't affect on barrages 1s recharge.

Then we need some assumptions for calculations.

Flatbow is used.
For barrage vampiric bow string is used and for glass arrows zealous is used.
For glass arrows zojun's shot and point blank shot is used on recharge so you are shooting zojun's -> pb shot -> autoattack repeatedly.
Attributes are considered to be 14 both marksmanship and expertise on both builds.
PvE ranks are considered maxed.

So to calculations:

Barrage without orders and using Ebon battle standard of honor and drunken master. 2 hits each time.

Barrage's refire rate can be calculated 2*0,67/2+1= 1,67 since flatbows attack interval is 2s and barrage starts to recharge when attack animation is half way through so you only get benefit from IAS for the first half of attack animation and barrage still takes 1s to recharge.

(10+19+15+5)*2/1,67 = 58,68

Glass arrows build using Zojun's Shot and PB shot on recharge and using Asuran Scan, Drunken Master and Ebon damage ward.

Zojun's Shot -> PB shot -> autoattack makes (38+38)/3=25,33 bonus damage on average.

1,75*(10+19+15+25,33)/2*0,67 = 90,54

If you want to take SY instead of drunken master you have to use 25% IAS unless you use some cons. DPS is then:

1,75*(10+19+15+25,33)/2*0,75 = 80,89

So clearly when only personal damage boosts are used glass arrows wins when you hit only 2 targets with barrage. For the comparison lets calculate how many arrows would be needed to get frm barrage every time to achieve glass arrows' dps.

(10+19+15+5)*X/1,67 = 90,54

X = 90,54*1,67/(10+19+15+5) = 3,08

So only with personal buffs you'd need to hit 3 targets on average with barrage to get almost same dps as glass arrows build gets.

So how much you'd need damage buffs for barrage to get same dps as glass arrows when team buffs are used and when those team buffs are equal for both builds.

(10+19+X+5)*2/1,67 = 1,75*(10+19+X+25,33)/2*0,67

(2x+68)/1,67 = (1,75X+95,0775)/1,34

2,68X+91,12 = 2,9225X+158,779425

0,2425X = -67,659425

X = -279

This means that no matter how much your buffs are, glass arrows is doing more damage than barrage when you are only hitting 2 targets on average. Using OoV doesn't change the situation.

In conclusion 2 hits on average from barrage isn't enough to compete with glass arrows. With 3 hits on average without buffs from party barrage gets almost same dps as glass arrows and if you have buffs from party you get more dps with barrage when hitting 3 or more enemies on average.

My calculations may be little bit off, because of roundings and assumptions, but you get the idea. If someone isn't convinced feel free to make more throughout calculations.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 24, 2010, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Fail. I've had LVQ for years now, when it still meant something.

When you've done every dungeon in HM with H/H, come back and talk to me. I certainly don't need to be talked down to by someone who can't realize racway is dated.

been there done that... but this is not about you or me, it's about Ranger DPS. If you don't have anything to say on this topic then we should drop it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Except that's not what you did. You shouldn't have considered IATS in your calculation BAR NONE. It does not help both builds EQUALLY. With barrage, a smaller percentage of your arrows will have IATS buff, which means it is LESS effective on barrage builds.

If your complaint is that IATS has "less coverage" on barrage than it does on Glass Arrows builds, what you are really saying is that Barrage will deliver the damage from IATS more quickly than a Glass Arrows build. That is the very definition of Damage Per Second... more damage in a given amount of time. In other words.... you don't understand what you are saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Except it doesn't, because you've completely ignored the fact that you can automatically get 2 hits in the time it takes to even activate and recharge barrage. Fail argument is fail.

Anyone who can theorycraft worth a damn can see straight away that a single target spiker will at the very LEAST be able to keep up with 2-target barrage. Straight away, this should be obvious, considering the a build capable of such has been posted in this thread already. The tipping point is probably somewhere between 2.5 and 3.5, depending on buffs. When you have some decent math, come back and talk.

too bad that the math does not support this. please get a calculator and prove what you are saying if you can.

MaaKotka · Feb 24, 2010, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

If your complaint is that IATS has "less coverage" on barrage than it does on Glass Arrows builds, what you are really saying is that Barrage will deliver the damage from IATS more quickly than a Glass Arrows build. That is the very definition of Damage Per Second... more damage in a given amount of time. In other words.... you don't understand what you are saying.

IATS gives same DPS in a long term in any build that doesn't increase +damage from IATS. Barrage just makes those 8 activations to come faster, you still have to wait its recharge. Any build using Asuran Scan actually benefits more from IATS than barrage build because of Scan boosts IATS damage also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

too bad that the math does not support this. please get a calculator and prove what you are saying if you can.

Read my post above and there you see calculations considering this.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 24, 2010, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

You asked some calculations so here we go.

Theoretical DPS can be calculated like this:

(percentage damage bonuses * ( basic bow damage + numerical damage boosts) + life steal ) * number of arrows / time it takes to complete firing animation

percentage damage bonuses are Asuran Scan and By Ural's Hammer, but you need here percent on average so you can't simply use BUH:s 25% but you have to take that skills downtime in to consideration also. For the sake of simplicity I didn't take Asuran Scan's cast and aftercast in to calculations.

Basic bow damage is 10ish on average in HM.

Numerical damage boosts are +damage boosts and attack skills you use. Again when considering attack skills you have to calculate here some kind of average.

Life steal is vampiric bow string and OoV.

number of arrows is the number of arrows you shoot at the same time.

Time it takes to complete attack animation is how long it takes to fire an arrow and "reload". IAS affects here and with Barrage it is a bit complicated since IAS can't affect on barrages 1s recharge.

Then we need some assumptions for calculations.

Flatbow is used.
For barrage vampiric bow string is used and for glass arrows zealous is used.
For glass arrows zojun's shot and point blank shot is used on recharge so you are shooting zojun's -> pb shot -> autoattack repeatedly.
Attributes are considered to be 14 both marksmanship and expertise on both builds.
PvE ranks are considered maxed.

So to calculations:

Barrage without orders and using Ebon battle standard of honor and drunken master. 2 hits each time.

Barrage's refire rate can be calculated 2*0,67/2+1= 1,67 since flatbows attack interval is 2s and barrage starts to recharge when attack animation is half way through so you only get benefit from IAS for the first half of attack animation and barrage still takes 1s to recharge.

(10+19+15+5)*2/1,67 = 58,68

Glass arrows build using Zojun's Shot and PB shot on recharge and using Asuran Scan, Drunken Master and Ebon damage ward.

Zojun's Shot -> PB shot -> autoattack makes (38+38)/3=25,33 bonus damage on average.

1,75*(10+19+15+25,33)/2*0,67 = 90,54

If you want to take SY instead of drunken master you have to use 25% IAS unless you use some cons. DPS is then:

1,75*(10+19+15+25,33)/2*0,75 = 80,89

So clearly when only personal damage boosts are used glass arrows wins when you hit only 2 targets with barrage. For the comparison lets calculate how many arrows would be needed to get frm barrage every time to achieve glass arrows' dps.

(10+19+15+5)*X/1,67 = 90,54

X = 90,54*1,67/(10+19+15+5) = 3,08

So only with personal buffs you'd need to hit 3 targets on average with barrage to get almost same dps as glass arrows build gets.

So how much you'd need damage buffs for barrage to get same dps as glass arrows when team buffs are used and when those team buffs are equal for both builds.

(10+19+X+5)*2/1,67 = 1,75*(10+19+X+25,33)/2*0,67

(2x+68)/1,67 = (1,75X+95,0775)/1,34

2,68X+91,12 = 2,9225X+158,779425

0,2425X = -67,659425

X = -279

This means that no matter how much your buffs are, glass arrows is doing more damage than barrage when you are only hitting 2 targets on average. Using OoV doesn't change the situation.

In conclusion 2 hits on average from barrage isn't enough to compete with glass arrows. With 3 hits on average without buffs from party barrage gets almost same dps as glass arrows and if you have buffs from party you get more dps with barrage when hitting 3 or more enemies on average.

My calculations may be little bit off, because of roundings and assumptions, but you get the idea. If someone isn't convinced feel free to make more throughout calculations.

MaaKotKa, I like the way you have laid out all the numbers here, but the comparison isn't valid because your Glass Arrows build uses Asuran Scan and the Barrage build does not. These two builds need to be using the same damage buffs if you are going to compare them properly. Obviously Asuran Scan is going to add a lot of damage to the Glass Arrows build (and Asuran Scan favors a single-target spike build besides).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I'm not denying orders as a viable way to increase DPS, because that's stupid. All I'm saying is that their are other factors to consider than just yourself. I'd like to see where I said not to bring damage enhancements too lol. I even posted a build that had plenty of those.

Off the top of my head, N/Rt with Splinter Weapon and such would probably be more beneficial to your team than orders in a scenario with only a few physicals. Brutal weapon if you have no enchants. Barbs/MoP... slap some other skills on there to support your team (and even orders if you must, though necros aren't the best with orders per-say.)

I mean, if you want to edit your entire time just to make YOU and only you the best damage dealer evar, that's cool. All I'm saying is if you have a hero spamming orders with only two or three people who can actually take advantage of it, isn't a bit wasted?

I agree with everything you said, I suppose I'm just frustrated at the random requirements that keep getting tossed into the discussion, such as "can't use Orders", "must have SY", etc. /sigh If you are going to run with Discordway, Sabway, etc. then clearly Orders are not going to be that useful. But you could also argue that with that kind of team they don't really need your bow damage at all so why talk about ranger DPS.

Anyways... IN MY OPINION splinter barrage is one of the best damage dealing builds a ranger can run, and it's better to have Splinter coming from a ritualist with high channeling rather than the ranger himself. The ritualist can have a much higher channeling attribute than the ranger and if the ritualist does it the ranger doesn't have to stop shooting arrows to cast.

If I had Barbs and Mark of Pain in the team I think I'd consider using Glass Arrows, Triple Shot, Double Shot, IATS and Asuran Scan to spike targets in the same way that warriors use multi-attack skills to spike with Mark of Pain. They have Whirlwind Attack and Sun and Moon Slash usually, the best equivalent a ranger has to that is Triple/Double Shot to pump out the Mark of Pain activations in the shortest amount of time. Also both of those skills are single target skills so Barrage will be pretty ineffective with them... one of the arrows would trigger Barbs and Mark of Pain but most would not.

Of course you could carry Barrage *and* Triple Shot (along with Asuran Scan, EBSoH, etc) so that you could deliver area damage *and* single target spike damage as the situation required. If you set up a glass arrows turret ranger kind of build its single target damage will be unmatched but you lose the opportunity to dish out mass damage, and too bad if the one target that you're attacking starts blocking or gets protted.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 24, 2010, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I agree with everything you said, I suppose I'm just frustrated at the random requirements that keep getting tossed into the discussion, such as "can't use Orders", "must have SY", etc. /sigh If you are going to run with Discordway, Sabway, etc. then clearly Orders are not going to be that useful. But you could also argue that with that kind of team they don't really need your bow damage at all so why talk about ranger DPS.

No one said you couldn't use it. If it works for you, go for it.