Curse

Chthon · Feb 16, 2010, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Hmmm okay. Here's the simple math... double shot and triple shot (at max rank) shoot arrows that do 25% less damage but each arrow still delivers its full load of buffs. This means that double shot is doing 150% of normal arrow damage plus twice the damage from whatever buffs you have. Triple shot is doing 225% of normal arrow damage plus three times the buff damage. There is no other bow attack, none, that can compare with that.

Barrage(@14) potentially does 700% normal arrow damage, plus 7x buff damage, plus 133. Volley(@14) potentially does 400% normal arrow damage, plus 4x buff damage, plus 36. Incendiary Arrows(@4) potentially does 300% normal arrow damage, plus 3x buff damage, plus 84. I'd say that all of those beat 225% normal arrow damage plus 3x buff damage by a large margin. But you knew that. And it's the less important point.

The more important point is that your analysis fails to take into account the recharge time. While Triple Shot may spike nicely, its DPS contribution is quite low.

What follows is a comparison of the DPS added by Triple Shot versus the DPS added by Penetrating/Sundering Attack, given a decent buff stack and several arbitrary presumptions designed to stack the deck in Triple Shot's favor. Penetrating/Sundering Attack adds more DPS.

Let's start with assumptions:

15^50, customized, max, vamp flatbow
Buffed with GDW + EBSoH + OoV + Asuran Scan (and I will allow you to ignore the need to recast Scan or EBSoH if that's on your bar.)
14 marks, ally with OoV has 16 blood
max allegiance ranks (for you and allies buffing you)
33% IAS
foe is a lvl30 warrior that follows typical armor rules

(The use of a flatbow, a very-high-armor foe, ignoring Scan's recast, and high IAS are meant to tip things as far as possible in Triple Shot's favor. Even with these advantages, it still doesn't add more DPS than Penetrating/Sundering.)

Now, let's calculate some values for damage per arrow for normal attacks, Triple Shot, and Penetrating.

Regular Arrow, Non-Crit =
(1.75 * ((((15 + 28) / 2) * 1.2 * 1.15 * (2^((64 - 130) / 40))) + 20 + 15)) + 17 + 5 = 99.7945935 round= 100.
[Aside: Without buffs, this arrow does only 9 damage. Vamp does 5. The other 86 damage are coming from GDW+EBSoH+Orders+Scan. Really helps you appreciate the effect of armor-ignoring buffs, doesn't it? Also makes it clear that vamp is better than sundering, no?]
Regular Arrow, Crit = ((1.75 * ((28 * 1.2 * 1.15 * (2^(((64 + 20) - 130) / 40))) + 20 + 15)) + 17 + 5 = 113.721278 round= 114.
Chance to Crit = (0.01 * 14) + ((1 - (0.01 * 14)) * 0.5 * (2^(((8 * 20) + (4 * 14) + (6 * min{14, ((20+4)/2)}) - (15 * 30) - 100) / 40))) = 0.144589041.
So, the weighted average is:
Regular Arrow Average = (0.144589041 * 114) + ((1- 0.144589041) * 100) = 102.024247.

Triple Shot, Non-Crit = (1.75 * ((((15 + 28) / 2) * 1.2 * 1.15 * .75 * (2^((64 - 130) / 40))) + 20 + 15)) + 17 + 5 = 95.6584452 round = 96.
Triple Shot, Crit = (1.75 * ((28 * 1.2 * 1.15 * .75 * (2^(((64 + 20) - 130) / 40))) + 20 + 15)) + 17 + 5 = 106.103459 round= 106.
Chance to Crit = 0.144589041.
So, the weighted average is:
Triple Shot Arrow Average = (0.144589041 * 106) + ((1- 0.144589041) * 96) = 97.4458904.

Penetrating Attack Non-Crit = (1.75 * ((((15 + 28) / 2) * 1.2 * 1.15 * (2^((64 - (130 * .9)) / 40))) + 24 + 20 + 15)) + 17 + 5 = 145.974824 round= 146.
Penetrating Attack Crit = (1.75 * ((28 * 1.2 * 1.15 * (2^(((64 + 20) - (130 * .9)) / 40))) + 24 + 20 + 15)) + 17 + 5 = 163.420287 = 163.
Chance to Crit = 0.144589041.
So, the weighted average is:
Penetrating Attack Average = (0.144589041 * 163) + ((1- 0.144589041) * 146) = 148.458014.

Now let's do some DPS figures calculated over 1 cycle.

Regular Attack DPS = 102.024247 / (2 * .66) = 77.2910962.

Triple Shot:
Assume you start Triple Shot at time T. Triple Shot will start recharging at T+0.66sec, when the arrow is released halfway through its animation. Triple Shot will be recharged at T+10.66sec. The 7th auto-attack following Triple Shot will conclude at 10.56 sec. It is more advantageous to cancel the 8th auto-attack by starting Triple Shot again at T+10.66sec. So the period is 10.66 sec and the damage is three Triple Shot arrows plus seven regular attack arrows.
Triple Shot DPS: ((3 * 97.4458904)+(7 * 102.024247))/10.66 = 94.4190807.
Subtract the base DPS to find what Triple Shot adds:
DPS Added by Triple Shot = 94.4190807 - 77.2910962 = 17.1279845.

Penetrating Attack:
Assume you start Penetrating Attack at time T. Penetrating Attack will start recharging at T+0.165sec, when the arrow is released and the aftercast begins. Penetrating Attack will be recharged at T+4.165sec. The 2nd auto-attack following Penetrating Attack will conclude at T+3.305sec. It is more advantageous to allow the 3rd auto-attack to complete at T+4.625sec before starting Penetrating Attack again. So the period is 4.625 sec and the damage is 1 Penetrating arrow plus 3 regular arrows.
Penetrating Attack DPS = (148.458014 + (3 * 102.024247))/4.625 = 98.27692.
Subtract the base DPS to find what Penetrating Attack adds:
DPS Added by Penetrating Attack = 98.27692 - 77.2910962 = 20.9858238.

20.9858238 > 17.1279845.

Ergo, Penetrating/Sundering Attack adds more DPS than Triple Shot under these circumstances.

Remember that I rigged the presumptions in Triple Shot's favor. In many situations the spread will be greater. I'm too lazy to do any more math on this right now, but I have a strong suspicion that Point Blank/Zojuns also make a bigger DPS contribution than Triple Shot. And, of course, Double Shot is a hell of a lot worse...

The bottom line is that Triple Shot's recharge is just too damned long. So much so that you can out-DPS it with non-elite, non-PvE-only bow attacks.

(Before you suggest just adding some other bow attacks: Another bow attack does not increase Triple Shot's DPS contribution. It simply makes its own DPS contribution. Any build with Triple Shot that does not already have both Sundering and Penetrating Attack would improve its DPS by switching out Triple Shot for Penetrating/Sundering, regardless of how many or what other bow attacks are already present.)

Quote:

re: splinter weapon, it certainly DOES matter if you can deliver all of its hits at once. This spikes the enemy team and may kill some of them before they can be healed. If you only deliver one splinter AoE per arrow you are giving the enemy more time to heal, more time to block, more time to kill you or someone in your team. Time compression is always good for your team, deliver all your damage up front if you can instead of dragging it out.

The fact remains that you do not add any DPS by compressing your Splinter delivery. All you gain is spikiness. While I agree that spikiness is better than no spikiness if all other things are equal, all other things are not equal, and spikiness usually isn't worth the DPS sacrifice it requires.

Absent healing, the fastest way through a mob is maximum DPS. Most mobs don't even have healers. Most mobs that do have healers have healers that are so ineffective you can basically ignore them. Even when dealing with the few mobs that do have effective healers, you need to consider that (a) the time gained by spiking rather than DPS pressuring this mob is likely to be more than offset by the time lost spiking rather than DPS-ing all the other no-(effective-)healer mobs in the instance, and (b) you can usually bring enough extra shutdown to render an effective healer ineffective with a much smaller DPS sacrifice than the DPS sacrifice entailed in a spike build.

upier · Feb 16, 2010, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Barrage(@14) potentially does 700% normal arrow damage, plus 7x buff damage, plus 133. Volley(@14) potentially does 400% normal arrow damage, plus 4x buff damage, plus 36.

Btw - the official wiki states that Barrage only produces 6 arrows, while the unofficial one states 7. 4 arrows are mentioned with regards to Volley (which would suggest that 7 should be right number for Barrage.)
Anyone tested it?

Tenebrae · Feb 16, 2010, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Btw - the official wiki states that Barrage only produces 6 arrows, while the unofficial one states 7. 4 arrows are mentioned with regards to Volley (which would suggest that 7 should be right number for Barrage.)
Anyone tested it?

Tested and used barrage ages ago , B/P times ( as any experienced ranger ofc ) they are 6 . Even if they were 7 , its rather pointless . Circumstances for a perfect barrage happen 0,00001% times ingame even with Tank and Spank. Outside tank and spank and old B/P groups the elite is BS because of the "adjacent" req. IA with its "nearby" range beats the crap out of it and doesnt remove your preparations so you can have +7/10 bonus from Expert Focus/Read the Wind.
For turrets Triple Shot is funny sometimes if you are using candy and can take Drunken Master or IAS out of your bar but Pen/Sund or PBS/ZS combo + Needling + Dmg prep + Buffs > 3Shot + Dmg prep + Buffs and thats it.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 16, 2010, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Barrage(@14) potentially does 700% normal arrow damage, plus 7x buff damage, plus 133. Volley(@14) potentially does 400% normal arrow damage, plus 4x buff damage, plus 36. Incendiary Arrows(@4) potentially does 300% normal arrow damage, plus 3x buff damage, plus 84. I'd say that all of those beat 225% normal arrow damage plus 3x buff damage by a large margin. But you knew that. And it's the less important point.

The more important point is that your analysis fails to take into account the recharge time. While Triple Shot may spike nicely, its DPS contribution is quite low.

It's amazing to me how much effort you put into proving your point when you missed mine completely.

1) i've already said that volley and barrage are the best bow attacks *IF* you can reasonably guarantee hitting multiple foes. why? multiple hits deliver more damage from buffs.

2) there is no greater single target damage skill than triple shot and dual shot and forked shot. why? because of the multiple hits, more damage packets from buffs. same story as before.

3) i agree that the recharge on triple shot sucks. have you ever thought about taking triple shot and sundering shot and penetrating shot to get the best of both worlds? you are not limited to one or the other.

Desert Rose · Feb 16, 2010, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

2) there is no greater single target damage skill than triple shot and dual shot and forked shot. why? because of the multiple hits, more damage packets from buffs. same story as before.

3) i agree that the recharge on triple shot sucks. have you ever thought about taking triple shot and sundering shot and penetrating shot to get the best of both worlds? you are not limited to one or the other.

Read his whole post!!!
He has already answered both points in the post you quoted.

Chthon · Feb 16, 2010, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

It's amazing to me how much effort you put into proving your point when you missed mine completely.

I got your point; it's just wrong.

Quote:

1) i've already said that volley and barrage are the best bow attacks *IF* you can reasonably guarantee hitting multiple foes. why? multiple hits deliver more damage from buffs.

A. That was kinda the point of the OP....

B. You don't even need a reasonable guarantee of hitting multiple foes to outperform Triple Shot. You can use Barrage 5 times in the time it takes to use Triple Shot once. To beat Triple Shot at base flatbow speed Barrage only needs to hit a total of 2 extra targets over the course of 5 shots. (On a flatbow under 33% IAS, that rises to a total of 5 extra targets over the course of 5 shots -- which you still should not find at all hard to do.) Even operating pretty far below its maximum potential, Barrage still outperforms every other bow attack in packet generation and, therefore, in DPS.

Quote:

2) there is no greater single target damage skill than triple shot and dual shot and forked shot. why? because of the multiple hits, more damage packets from buffs. same story as before.

3) i agree that the recharge on triple shot sucks. have you ever thought about taking triple shot and sundering shot and penetrating shot to get the best of both worlds? you are not limited to one or the other.

You fail at reading comprehension. I have already addressed both points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Btw - the official wiki states that Barrage only produces 6 arrows, while the unofficial one states 7. 4 arrows are mentioned with regards to Volley (which would suggest that 7 should be right number for Barrage.)
Anyone tested it?

A. I have no idea. I've always just taken the wiki's word for it that there are 7. I guess I'll have to try testing it.

B. It doesn't particularly matter. While hitting 7 is obviously better than hitting 6, if you're already hitting 6, there's no question that Barrage is the best option for that situation.

AtomicMew · Feb 16, 2010, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Even operating pretty far below its maximum potential, Barrage still outperforms every other bow attack in packet generation and, therefore, in DPS.

I think you've got a lot of work cut out for you in proving that.

1) First of all, it's not even strictly true that barrage produces the most packets. IA under normal H/H conditions would probably produce more packets. Adjacent is actually quite limited.

2) Packets are vectors for static buffs. You can't just say that because barrage has the most packets, which, again, is not necessarily true, that it is the best DPS. You can't automatically assume GDW and OotV, especially since you won't have these in H/H. Yo also need to mention that a significant part of your static buffs are lost due to not having a prep. If you just assume Asura Scan and EBSoH, how many targets would you need to hit per barrage if you compared it to say, Glass Arrows? Or RTW + IA?

3) Single target spike is much more important than you think. Killing a target fast means that it can't attack you or debuff you or prot other targets. This gets more and more important the harder the area you get to. (Just look at Jeydra's AP nuker if you doubt it.)

Of course, as you say, it doesn't matter in 99% of PvE. But really, who cares? No build is significantly faster than any other build in the majority of areas.

MaaKotka · Feb 16, 2010, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Something I realised while thinking single target builds for ranger. Asuran scan's 5 second recharge somewhat limits dps to around 140 simply because, if I'm correct, HM monsters have around 700hp at lvl 30. 700hp/5s=140hp/s

For barrage to outperform that 140 dps its needs to do at least 280 damage assuming it is fired at every 2nd second. Using same buffs as Chthon without asuran scan, single arrow from barrage does around 90 damage. So hitting 3 enemies every time you get around 135 dps.

So if you think you can consistently hit 3 or more enemies at a time and have those buffs on use, it is pretty much always better to use barrage than single target builds.

About incendiary arrows, i don't know if it is worth to get extra 2 packets every 5th second when you are losing some power from all of yours other packets.

Charlotte the Harlot · Feb 16, 2010, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

(Before you suggest just adding some other bow attacks: Another bow attack does not increase Triple Shot's DPS contribution. It simply makes its own DPS contribution. Any build with Triple Shot that does not already have both Sundering and Penetrating Attack would improve its DPS by switching out Triple Shot for Penetrating/Sundering, regardless of how many or what other bow attacks are already present.)

The fact remains that you do not add any DPS by compressing your Splinter delivery. All you gain is spikiness. While I agree that spikiness is better than no spikiness if all other things are equal, all other things are not equal, and spikiness usually isn't worth the DPS sacrifice it requires.

Absent healing, the fastest way through a mob is maximum DPS. Most mobs don't even have healers. Most mobs that do have healers have healers that are so ineffective you can basically ignore them. Even when dealing with the few mobs that do have effective healers, you need to consider that (a) the time gained by spiking rather than DPS pressuring this mob is likely to be more than offset by the time lost spiking rather than DPS-ing all the other no-(effective-)healer mobs in the instance, and (b) you can usually bring enough extra shutdown to render an effective healer ineffective with a much smaller DPS sacrifice than the DPS sacrifice entailed in a spike build.

You are not taking energy and the recharges of the other bow attacks into account. Triple Shot will add a lot more dps to a barrage bar than penetrating shot, you will be spamming barrage a lot of the time and penetrating shot will drain your energy too much as well as slow down the barrage rate, triple shot will be used less frequently to much more effect than a single penetrating shot. Penetrating Shot would almost always hurt your DPS on a barrage bar and drains your energy too much to get its maximum potential.

Spikes often are worth the loss in raw DPS getting a key monster out of the way quickly is extremely helpful. The spike is especially good on a barrage bar because if you aren't hitting multiple targets it probably means there arent that many enemies and the upfront spike damage will outdo the larger longterm DPS due to the short length of these fights.

You don't bring a ranger on your team if you are looking for high single target dps. You bring it for shutdown, spike, utility, and AoE DPS. Obviously you wont bring 3 rangers, you bring one possibly two to supplement your frontline damage in ways they cant thus speeding up the group more than a team with somewhat higher raw DPS.

Chthon · Feb 17, 2010, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

I think you've got a lot of work cut out for you in proving that.

1) First of all, it's not even strictly true that barrage produces the most packets. IA under normal H/H conditions would probably produce more packets. Adjacent is actually quite limited.

Given the recharge difference, I'm pretty sure Barrage is still going to win.

Also, I'm getting the impression that a lot of people in this thread aren't very good at observing or manipulating enemy positions. Getting adjacent targets isn't that hard, folks! Ya'll make it sound like it's a once-in-a-blue-moon event.

In any event, if IA turns out to out-perform Barrage under some situations, that doesn't bother me much. The larger point that's taking shape here is that turret builds, particularly Triple Shot builds, don't compare well with AoE builds. Whether Barrage or IA is better than the other, that larger point still holds.

Quote:

2) Packets are vectors for static buffs. You can't just say that because barrage has the most packets, which, again, is not necessarily true, that it is the best DPS.... Yo also need to mention that a significant part of your static buffs are lost due to not having a prep.

Actually, you pretty much can. "Standard" buffs give +52/arrow. For anything to beat simply putting one more arrow in the air, it needs to add more than that. You can see without me going over it in detail that there are few, if any, ways to do that. The only viable candidate for accomplishing this that's obvious to me is Point Blank/Zojun's plus a prep. I can't imagine anything that beats two more arrows in the air.

Also, remember that Barrage adds ~+20 on a 1sec recharge. It basically is its own prep.

Quote:

You can't automatically assume GDW and OotV, especially since you won't have these in H/H.

I don't much care about H+H.

Quote:

RTW + IA?

I find Ignite Arrows + IA + EBSoH does a lot more damage, since the EBSoH gets applied twice. Unfortunately, it also causes monster flee like you wouldn't believe. It's an interesting defensive option, but it tends to slow down killing the mob since you have to chase them all over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

Something I realised while thinking single target builds for ranger. Asuran scan's 5 second recharge somewhat limits dps

Yes. I left that out because (a) it's a gigantic pain to account for in the math, and (b) I wanted to show that Triple still isn't great even if you give it unrealistic advantages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlotte the Harlot

You are not taking energy and the recharges of the other bow attacks into account. Triple Shot will add a lot more dps to a barrage bar than penetrating shot, you will be spamming barrage a lot of the time and penetrating shot will drain your energy too much as well as slow down the barrage rate, triple shot will be used less frequently to much more effect than a single penetrating shot. Penetrating Shot would almost always hurt your DPS on a barrage bar and drains your energy too much to get its maximum potential.

Your point about energy is largely irrelevant. I take for granted that any bar under discussion manages its energy adequately. Cases where changing from Triple to Penetrating causes you to fail at e-management may exist, but they are trivial and don't invalidate the general point.

Your point about Triple Shot adding more DPS than Penetrating Shot used rarely is factually correct, but I'm dubious of the methodology. If you start with the assumption that you're going to use a particular skill less frequently than would be optimal, then... (a) I think you lose any way of making a principled comparison between skills. If frequency equals whatever you feel like making it equal, it becomes a fudge factor that can be adjusted up or down to get the end result you expect to get. And, (b) if you have an attack skill that's sitting idle on your bar for long periods, it's probably a sign that you could improve that bar by putting something that you're going to use in that spot instead. That is, the best use for that spot may be neither Triple nor Penetrating, but a non-attack skill altogether.

Charlotte the Harlot · Feb 17, 2010, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Your point about Triple Shot adding more DPS than Penetrating Shot used rarely is factually correct, but I'm dubious of the methodology. If you start with the assumption that you're going to use a particular skill less frequently than would be optimal, then... (a) I think you lose any way of making a principled comparison between skills. If frequency equals whatever you feel like making it equal, it becomes a fudge factor that can be adjusted up or down to get the end result you expect to get. And, (b) if you have an attack skill that's sitting idle on your bar for long periods, it's probably a sign that you could improve that bar by putting something that you're going to use in that spot instead. That is, the best use for that spot may be neither Triple nor Penetrating, but a non-attack skill altogether.

That was my point you can't use penetrating shot at maximum efficiency on a barrage bar where as with triple shot you can. When I said use triple shot less frequently I meant in comparison to pen shot (due to recharge).

AtomicMew · Feb 17, 2010, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

I don't much care about H+H.

"Standard" buffs give +52/arrow. For anything to beat simply putting one more arrow in the air, it needs to add more than that. You can see without me going over it in detail that there are few, if any, ways to do that. The only viable candidate for accomplishing this that's obvious to me is Point Blank/Zojun's plus a prep. I can't imagine anything that beats two more arrows in the air.

"Standard" is a pretty big misnomer, since it's not, in actuality, standard. Even in 2 man heroway, you're not necessarily going to have GDW if your partner is a warrior or a para or something.

And while you may not care about H/H, a lot of people do.*

Even given that barrage will do more overall damage, which, again is not always going to be the case, you're still ignoring the fact taht directed single target spike damage is much better than un-targeted damage. (Similarly, why discord is better than Xinrae's, even though the latter has a bigger overall swing.) And if you take something like glass arrows, you're doing MUCH more single target spike damage, especially in a H/H setting.

*At any rate, I still don't understand why you detest H/H so much. You can still roll through FoW with ursanway. On the other hand, H/H is a much more precise game. It's requires refinement rather than bulldozing the game by taking as many overpowered skills as possible. And H/H search space is actually meaningful, since you can't just take whatever build and roll through everywhere like you can with a full player team.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 17, 2010, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I got your point; it's just wrong.

What I said was:

1) barrage and volley deliver more packets than other attacks, therefore deliver more damage IF you can rely on hitting more than one target. sounds like we agree on this one.

2) triple shot, double shot, forked shot deliver more packets than other single-target bow attacks, therefore deliver more damage to a single target.

3) doing damage up front is better than spreading that damage out over time

explain to me how any of those are wrong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Triple Shot:
Assume you start Triple Shot at time T. Triple Shot will start recharging at T+0.66sec, when the arrow is released halfway through its animation. Triple Shot will be recharged at T+10.66sec. The 7th auto-attack following Triple Shot will conclude at 10.56 sec. It is more advantageous to cancel the 8th auto-attack by starting Triple Shot again at T+10.66sec. So the period is 10.66 sec and the damage is three Triple Shot arrows plus seven regular attack arrows.
Triple Shot DPS: ((3 * 97.4458904)+(7 * 102.024247))/10.66 = 94.4190807.
Subtract the base DPS to find what Triple Shot adds:
DPS Added by Triple Shot = 94.4190807 - 77.2910962 = 17.1279845.

Penetrating Attack:
Assume you start Penetrating Attack at time T. Penetrating Attack will start recharging at T+0.165sec, when the arrow is released and the aftercast begins. Penetrating Attack will be recharged at T+4.165sec. The 2nd auto-attack following Penetrating Attack will conclude at T+3.305sec. It is more advantageous to allow the 3rd auto-attack to complete at T+4.625sec before starting Penetrating Attack again. So the period is 4.625 sec and the damage is 1 Penetrating arrow plus 3 regular arrows.
Penetrating Attack DPS = (148.458014 + (3 * 102.024247))/4.625 = 98.27692.
Subtract the base DPS to find what Penetrating Attack adds:
DPS Added by Penetrating Attack = 98.27692 - 77.2910962 = 20.9858238.

Using your numbers, Triple Shot delivers 283 damage (94.42 x3) in one shot.
Penetrating/Sundering deliver 98.28 in one shot. In my book 283 >> 98, and yes, I am one of those that favors spike builds. Dead enemies don't heal and they don't hit back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You fail at reading comprehension. I have already addressed both points.

No, you haven't. Damage per shot is not the same as damage per second... it's obviously more valuable to have the damage up front rather than spread it out over time.

re: using both skills... if you use Triple Shot + Penetrating Shot, you get 283+98 damage in two shots, if you use Sundering + Penetrating you get 98+98 in two shots. Which would you rather have?

I never made the claim that triple shot, double shot, etc. should be the only attack skills on your bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

3) Single target spike is much more important than you think. Killing a target fast means that it can't attack you or debuff you or prot other targets. This gets more and more important the harder the area you get to. (Just look at Jeydra's AP nuker if you doubt it.)

trcvrs is right on. If you don't think spiking is important you need to play in some areas like Slaver's Exile or Domain of Anguish with good healers (and multiple healers).

Redvex · Feb 17, 2010, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

re: using both skills... if you use Triple Shot + Penetrating Shot, you get 283+98 damage in two shots, if you use Sundering + Penetrating you get 98+98 in two shots. Which would you rather have?
.

But sundering or penetrating have near 1/3 of triple shot recharge time.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 17, 2010, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

But sundering or penetrating have near 1/3 of triple shot recharge time.

take all three

Redvex · Feb 17, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

take all three

I take always 3 of this pve skills: Asuran Scan, I am the strongest, Ebon vanguard sin support, EbSH and Pain inverter (i don't have problem because i use marksman wager). There's no place for triple shot

JackBurton · Feb 17, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31

I hope this isn't too much of a thread derail, but, when using sund/pene attack do you guys spam them both right after each other or allow an auto attack in between? I've been testing on the MoD to see which one is more efficient and I cannot come up with definitive results.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 17, 2010, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackBurton

I hope this isn't too much of a thread derail, but, when using sund/pene attack do you guys spam them both right after each other or allow an auto attack in between? I've been testing on the MoD to see which one is more efficient and I cannot come up with definitive results.

Chthon laid this out in his post above, I'd go with that attack sequence unless someone can show a better way.

Desert Rose · Feb 17, 2010, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackBurton

I hope this isn't too much of a thread derail, but, when using sund/pene attack do you guys spam them both right after each other or allow an auto attack in between?

As long as you're using them on recharge and don't cancel autoattacks too much it doesn't matter. Though it's properly easier to avoid cancel autoattack if you use them straight after each other.

Chthon · Feb 17, 2010, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackBurton

I hope this isn't too much of a thread derail, but, when using sund/pene attack do you guys spam them both right after each other or allow an auto attack in between? I've been testing on the MoD to see which one is more efficient and I cannot come up with definitive results.

So long as you can queue properly and don't accidentally introduce deadtime, it makes no difference for your DPS. However:

1. It does make a difference for your spikiness. Obviously, spamming them both together is more spiky.

2. If you're looking at DPS over the course of the fight, the period closes when the last monster dies. So you have a very slight incentive to frontload damage as much as possible by spamming both as early as possible on the off chance that the damage difference between Penetrating and auto-attacking is enough to kill that last guy and end the period one arrow sooner.

3. If you have other attack skills or spells or both, you can start to run out of activation time and run into tricky problems of whether it's optimal to cancel a given auto-attack or leave a recharged skill unused for a moment or maybe try to reshuffle the activation order to avoid the conflict. These problems are (a) case specific, and (b) really hard.