Curse

Wefta · Apr 13, 2010, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

There is a bad tendency on this board to confuse a fact that one does not like with an opinion. Sorry, but it is an empirical fact that pets just are not optimal at much of anything in GW.

Then can u maybe explain to me why nearly every warrior and ranger in HA uses a pet to battle with?

Just press "b" in-game and press a random battle in HA and you'll see that most warriors and most rangers have a pet with them. (At least of the majority of battles I watched.)

dusanyu · Apr 13, 2010, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wefta

Then can u maybe explain to me why nearly every warrior and ranger in HA uses a pet to battle with?

Just press "b" in-game and press a random battle in HA and you'll see that most warriors and most rangers have a pet with them. (At least of the majority of battles I watched.)

because dead pets trigger I Will Avenge You

All things aside PvE have Fun Run what you like

Mintha Syl · Apr 13, 2010, 10:30 AM // 10:30

The point is, there's no facts, only opinion. You can't say a build is bad cause you don't like it or cause you're not good with it. What I noticed in this game and in many others is the tendency to say, for rarest or non canonic builds that they suck. And many times from people who didn't even try them (every time I hear someone say pets are useless it comes out the person has not even tried them in the last years). And instead original and personalized builds often come out in something great. So, there's nothing worthless, there's just opinions, not facts. If someone asks: is this good? speaking truly one should answer "yes, in my opinion it is cause..." or "no,in my opninion it's bad cause..." and not "all you people are saying is just garbage" (just cause he doesn't agree). Which confuses the one who's asking an opinion and immediately starts a war of opinions(and not facts).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valerius

The only thing I dislike about using pets is how it takes them like 5-7 secs to switch targets

Well, it's just because of the melee...I use that time (and the time he takes to fufill a skill) with non-pet skills (usually EotN ranks ones).

WhiteAsIce · Apr 13, 2010, 09:02 PM // 21:02

I took the Pet Scythe build to see some numbers on the Isle of the Nameless. On the suit of 100 Armor, the pet was dealing more damage, but at a lower speed than my Ranger. In the short run, the pet will deal more damage, but on a sustained foe, you will deal more damage because you're attacking faster, and you can maintain Asuran Scan longer.

G4ymBoy · Apr 13, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

There is a bad tendency on this board to confuse a fact that one does not like with an opinion. Sorry, but it is an empirical fact that pets just are not optimal at much of anything in GW.

The first build you cite is a good example of fun-but-suboptimal. (It's also one of the stronger builds ranger has going for it right now, highlighting how rangers are suboptimal as a class.)
The second build is a good example of a worthless build being passed off as "utility."

While normally I dislike your negative view of anything suboptimal, I actually have to agree there are simply better options for a ranger.

I also agree with what you said earlier that the TC is new and should be having fun, but yeah there will be a time where pets just do not cut it anymore.

(this is coming from a ranger who LOVES using beast master builds).

FoxBat · Apr 14, 2010, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

For PvP, I sometimes use an Enraged Lunge build when I feel like wasting time in RA. It works because (1) most people in RA are terrible, and (2) it's got the element of surprise going for it.

This is a PvE thread but this is just too wrong. Packhunter was the standard for TA hexway often for several very good reasons.

1) Assuming a nearly still target, enraged lunge is actually good DPS for the zero skill it requires, while still letting the spearchucker spread degen everywhere. See 2 and 3 for how to make a still target.

2) Pets are terrible at switching targets, but they almost never need to with Otygh's Cry.

3) Pets have trouble with kiting foes, which barbed + crippling spear solves nicely.

In GvG there's too many other things that could punish the packhunter (better cripple removal, spirit bond/other prots, overextending pet into footmen and DPing it), but it's still fairly functional in a hexway. RaO spearchukers were successfully abused in a barbs-based HA build, a skill which by the way has been a big part of any number of spiritway variants, in which the pets provided extra soul reaping, barbs, daze, and even able to catch up and hit constantly KD'd foes under its IMS.

As for HB, again you rarely have to switch targets (either 1v1s, or pets camp 1 target), plus there was the "watch the enemy AI always prioritize the pet" aspect.

In most PvE mobs die so fast that pets do in fact have to switch targets often, and this is what kills them. (never mind lack of AoE, or great difficutly stacking up physical buffs) Although a run buff can compensate to some limited degree. Corpses to make minions are generally available and that takes care of all your soul reaping/barbs abuse needs.

Chthon · Apr 16, 2010, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

This is a PvE thread but this is just too wrong. Packhunter was the standard for TA hexway often for several very good reasons.

TA is also removed from the game...

Quote:

Pets have trouble with kiting foes, which barbed + crippling spear solves nicely.

1. People in low-end PvP are often too dumb to move. That's part of the reason why I said it works there.

2. Call of Haste does a pretty good number on kiting foes.

3. I'm not opposed to pet+spear builds in general for low-end PvP, just the "packhunter" template as currently used in low-end PvP where it's inferior to Enraged Lunge.

Tenebrae · Apr 16, 2010, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Pets as a concept are good but in GW they are just "not bad". In PvP they fit the rangers pressure role and so on but in pve ..... you have to stack at least 2 buffs on em and always with an IAS to have decent damage. Too bloody slow attack rate ....

pingu666 · Apr 29, 2010, 03:57 AM // 03:57

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Winnowing

might be worth a ponder

maybe if you had a necro/ranger MM, necro or rit or physical support, plus a melee hero or two...

i did try to make a petway before but it wasnt that good. i dunno if the pet ai has been updated but the pets used to need you to physicaly attack the target for them to join in aswell, dont go well with casters...

might see if i can figure out a teambuild tomoz

wilebill · May 01, 2010, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Otyugh's Cry is reason enough. But wait, there's so much more!

Solo with heroes and hench in PvE I have run a pet build since the day Prophecies came out.

In a group doing dungeons, I do not run a pet because I am more effective as interrupt featuring BHA and etc.

Fay Vert · May 01, 2010, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Wow, pets AND BHA!!

It just doesn't get worse than that.

Rikimaru · May 18, 2010, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

All that said. OP, it's clear you and your son are pretty new. There will eventually come a time when you'll want to focus on finding what works best. Now isn't that time. Go ahead and have fun with whatever you think is fun for right now. Come back when what you think is fun stops being able to complete the missions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It is a game so having fun high on the list of priorities is a wise choice.

Seriously, if having fun is not the primary goal, you should not be playing.
Maybe when you start getting paid cash to beat missions and win PvP you might be able to justify the attitude of doing whatever it takes to win stuff regardless of enjoyment.

Pets are great in PvE, but last I knew they were godawful trash in PvP and I doubt that has changed.
In PvP you need to take 2 skill slots just to keep them with you, another skill to boost their attack speed/damage to reasonable levels, they suffer Death Penalty whenever they die (I think this may only apply in areas where you can get DP yourself, such as Guild Battles), they disable your skills for several seconds after they die, and they die fast as hell without further skill investments in pet-only defenses (I believe, as was mentioned above, they have a massive 33% less damage and armor in PvP, which contributes greatly to the issue of them having both pathetic offense and defense).
Basically, they'll cut your skill bar in half, and won't contribute much anyway since you can either use them for mediocre damage and watch them get taken out in 5 seconds and render you useless, or use them defensively as a distraction and watch people flat-out ignore them.

But in PvE, yes, they're pretty great.

**Marty Silverblade** · May 19, 2010, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

Seriously, if having fun is not the primary goal, you should not be playing.
Maybe when you start getting paid cash to beat missions and win PvP you might be able to justify the attitude of doing whatever it takes to win stuff regardless of enjoyment.

I think you missed the point slightly. There will always be an area/areas that a new player cannot beat. They'll find replacing the less efficient half of their bar and beating the mission/area is a lot more fun than doing it over and over.

Amy Awien · May 19, 2010, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

I think you missed the point slightly. There will always be an area/areas that a new player cannot beat. They'll find replacing the less efficient half of their bar and beating the mission/area is a lot more fun than doing it over and over.

No, you are missing the point. It's a game, it's about fun and if playing with a pet means fun that that is the way to go.

You're assuming a, possbily non-existant, rare case to make a point that can not be made sensibly otherwise. Some missions may indeed be easier with, or even require, specific adaptions or a specialized builds, but those builds are usually completely unsuitable for the general PvE and any attempts to use them beyond those special cases for which they were intended would make the game very not-fun.

On top of that you indirectly give the poor advice of changing a build while failing a mission is usually caused by faulty tactics rather then a bad or unsuitable build.

Cuilan · May 19, 2010, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Many players require two things for fun. Style or type of play and how well they achieve it with those types of play.

For example, a player may enjoy non-SY paragons builds with paragon skills filling most of the bar, but they won't enjoy it if it sucks dirt.

Amy Awien · May 20, 2010, 07:08 AM // 07:08

This is the ranger forum with a thread about using pets, I don't see how paragon builds are relevant within that context.

The only thing that sucks is people who think they know what other people should or should not enjoy.

**Marty Silverblade** · May 20, 2010, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

No, you are missing the point. It's a game, it's about fun and if playing with a pet means fun that that is the way to go.

I didn't miss the point. I completely agree with having fun. It's just that often when people get stuck they get frustrated and if ditching the pet for a better skill bar will alleviate the frustration, then 99% of times they'll do that. After all, would you rather spend 4 hours repeating the same thing over and over or try and tip things in your favor a little more? That's just a fact, not my opinion or interpretation.

Quote:

You're assuming a, possibily non-existant, rare case to make a point that can not be made sensibly otherwise. Some missions may indeed be easier with, or even require, specific adaptions or a specialized builds, but those builds are usually completely unsuitable for the general PvE and any attempts to use them beyond those special cases for which they were intended would make the game very not-fun.

Fair enough, but irrelevant to what I was saying. It's not necessarily a mission where a person gets stuck. It could be a new area in general, like the desolation. Bad builds/concepts are exactly that. If people can't progress because of them, regardless of how fun they thought they were, they'll need to find a solution. The skill bar is often the first thing questioned.

Quote:

On top of that you indirectly give the poor advice of changing a build while failing a mission is usually caused by faulty tactics rather then a bad or unsuitable build.

I never gave advice. I simply stated a fact. Even if tactics are the problem, which may or may not be the main issue of new player mission failure, they'll probably try to fix their bar up rather than see where exactly their tactics are failing and what they should do. Sure, sometimes players will modify their tactics enough to get through, but some people will just try over and over and hope things will get better. When this doesn't happen, they look for the most obvious way (to them) in increase their chances of beating the mission. Progress to some people is more important than the actual bar/concept being run.

Taurean · May 26, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28

I had myself and all 3 ranger heroes all with pets, vanquished ice cliff chasms with it. The strenght is that you can keep resurrecting the pets and occupy your enemies with them ^^ They actually deal a bit of damage as well!

And, if you manage to daze your enemy, they are unable to cast any spells at all.

Eragon Zarroc · May 26, 2010, 03:34 PM // 15:34

idk, they are kinda meh. if you dedicate your entire bar to beastmastery, they can be fairly strong, but i find having to rely on the cumbersome movement and poor positioning that comes with relying on a pet for dmg to outweigh any benefits >_<

Magragoc · May 26, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

idk, they are kinda meh. if you dedicate your entire bar to beastmastery, they can be fairly strong, but i find having to rely on the cumbersome movement and poor positioning that comes with relying on a pet for dmg to outweigh any benefits >_<

You don't need to dedicate an entire bar: A dagger ranger spamming Enraged Lunge and Scavenger Strike will see a marked increase in DPS with only those three slots. He'll get an extra body to trigger buffs and draw fire, high-damage spammy Deep Wound and the energy management that'll combine with Expertise to let him do that until the cows come home.

A pure Beastmaster is pretty garbage, but think of pets as a garnish to your build, not the focus.