Curse

Xiaquin · Jun 26, 2010, 05:48 AM // 05:48

MW has always looked interesting to me, but the short duration and penalty for missing (easy to do if enemies dodge, block or just downright cheat with invisible "target is obstructed" messages) has kept me from testing it.

I like the potential in CS, Drege. Once you interrupt though, I don't think you need to spam it, you should focus on putting a flurry of attacks out when the enemy is dazed. That can be a bit tricky with a bow. As for damage, I have to agree with degen conditions.

Hiero · Jun 26, 2010, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drege_Icebow

Here's the winner folks. With a bow, I have managed to churn out:

593 damage over 2 seconds, with death occurring at 2 seconds,
399 damage spike,
& 296 DPS.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove... that you can deliver a decent spike on a level 20 with low armor rating? Without going into the whole bow and sucking discussion, this proves of course nothing. Try to get some more numbers, this time something sustainable if you want to convince the others bow dps doesn't suck.

Tenebrae · Jun 26, 2010, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiero

Try to get some more numbers, this time something sustainable if you want to convince the others bow dps doesn't suck.

Hi , there are about 6 previous pages proving it. Also read basic equation :
not being the omfgpwnage =\= being useless or suck.

Hiero · Jun 26, 2010, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Hi , there are about 6 previous pages proving it. Also read basic equation :
not being the omfgpwnage =\= being useless or suck.

Proof? Haven't seen anything conclusive yet, but like I said, I'm not going into this whole discussion. Just pointing out that delivering a spike and going zomg 296 dps is a bit silly.

Fay Vert · Jun 26, 2010, 09:45 AM // 09:45

High numbers against master of damage do not mean high numbers in PvE and certainly do not mean high numbers in HM, especially against any mob with any sort of a healer or boss.

Stop pissing around with armchair numbers and go out and try it in HM.

Ethoiwyr · Jun 26, 2010, 10:17 AM // 10:17

No, bows aren't useless. As said many times before, they have their advantages over melee weapons. Just because you can't solo ecto farm with a bow doesn't make it "useless"

Amy Awien · Jun 26, 2010, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiero

... Just pointing out that delivering a spike ...

If the spike kills it's useful.

Ugh · Jun 26, 2010, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

MW has always looked interesting to me, but the short duration and penalty for missing (easy to do if enemies dodge, block or just downright cheat with invisible "target is obstructed" messages) has kept me from testing it.

The short duration and missing penalties aren't really a problem. If you miss enough times to drain your energy, you only have to hit one more time 'til you're set to spam again. And, you'll have max energy when MW ends, so you should have enough to hold you over for the 6s downtime.

Quote:

I like the potential in CS, Drege. Once you interrupt though, I don't think you need to spam it, you should focus on putting a flurry of attacks out when the enemy is dazed. That can be a bit tricky with a bow. As for damage, I have to agree with degen conditions.

Tbh, I wouldn't use this in PvP. MW limits your poison options to Poison Tip Signet (which is pretty bad since you can't spread it, it has a 6s recharge, and you have to keep recasting it), bleeding can't be provided that effectively on a ranger (R.I.P. Hunter's Shot), and you don't get skills like Cripshot (you could bring Pin Down, though), Magebane, BA, IA, or Melshot. Also, there's more blocking in PvP.

If you really want a build to spam Concussion Shot, I'd go with Scavenger's Focus (and bring Apply) and just use it when you get low on energy. Downtime's a bitch, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiero

I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove... that you can deliver a decent spike on a level 20 with low armor rating? Without going into the whole bow and sucking discussion, this proves of course nothing. Try to get some more numbers, this time something sustainable if you want to convince the others bow dps doesn't suck.

Armor penetration from a hornbow and Pene/Sunder means that this would still perform fairly well against a high AL target.

But, I also have some sustainability complaints:
-Favorable Winds is slow, so I don't really see anyone using it in general PvE unless you have 3+ rangers.
-Sloth Hunter's Shot has a long recharge.
-LR has a long downtime.

If I was to run this, I would probably switch Comfort Animal for FW and NRA for LR, just Drunken Master for LR, or just Dwarven Stability for FW. All of those are pretty 'meh,' though.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 26, 2010, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Several things:

1) Agreed, flipping out after spike damage is a bit rediculous, but still, I dropped the MoD in 2 seconds, which, by most standards is pretty friggin' sweet.

2) I use the MoD like most scientists use a lab: to test shit. It is a baseline that isolates variables. If I can go see what a MS/DB spike on the MoD looks like on youtube (I don't play a sin, but my ranger does on T.V.), then I have something to compare with if I go on the MoD.

3) I do test this build in the real world; namely in the Domain of Fear. Perhaps it is cheating because I have rank 8 LB (+40% damage), but I practically face-rape the casters in this area with this build. As someone has already stated, this build basically has a 20% AP. Feel free to stack it with Judge's insight since you now have absurd amounts of energy, for a total of 40% AP and double damage against the undead.

4) Favorable winds is the swappable +dmg in this bar. I tried it with brutal weapon with mixed results (it would be useless anyway due to the enchantment nerf).

5) Sloth does have a slow recharge time. I am flirting with swapping LR with Serpent's to up the DPS, which would put Sloth's at 6, and drop Pen/Sun down below 3... The idea behind sloth's is to put up a huge spike in the beginning, and then pen/sun until the guy is dead, which shouldn't be long after.

I think the principle behind this build is the synergy between conc shot and MW. They were made to be. In principle, every bow skill afterwards becomes a complete spell caster shutdown, and they can be spammed. This configuration is better than BHA because it has a shorter recharge, and it can be used in conjunction with a spike bar.

I will continue to test.

Amy Awien · Jun 26, 2010, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Scavenger's Focus (already suggested) doesn't have the downside that Marksman Wager has, more downtime (but not too much) and it's in Wilderness Survival, but it leaves your prep open and you did say you were thinking about poison and bleeding for RA.

Xiaquin · Jun 27, 2010, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiero

Proof? Haven't seen anything conclusive yet, but like I said, I'm not going into this whole discussion. Just pointing out that delivering a spike and going zomg 296 dps is a bit silly.

Clearly you won't be convinced, since you sound like you've already made up your mind, anyway. My damage is sustainable with Glass Arrows and any other damage buffs such as IAtS or AS, and it doesn't "suck", even in HM.

@Ugh, I do like your point about MW, I thought of it as well after carefully considering it more. I also have to agree about limited degen options. That's a big problem for rangers, it's something they should have more flexibility in.

Hiero · Jun 27, 2010, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Clearly you won't be convinced, since you sound like you've already made up your mind, anyway. My damage is sustainable with Glass Arrows and any other damage buffs such as IAtS or AS, and it doesn't "suck", even in HM.

Who says I need convincing in the first place? So far I haven't stated my opinion one way or the other. I just pointed out that some of the so called "proof" people are providing in this topic is rather poor (or in some cases even complete bs).

Xiaquin · Jun 27, 2010, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiero

Who says I need convincing in the first place?

Well, you are sorta in this thread, majorly discrediting the numbers as any good metric of real damage (which is half true, the numbers aren't gospel, but strong indicators).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiero

So far I haven't stated my opinion one way or the other. I just pointed out that some of the so called "proof" people are providing in this topic is rather poor (or in some cases even complete bs).

So, why don't you state your opinion, if you are entering the discussion? I agree that a 3 second spike shouldn't be weighed very heavily, but, would you care to provide some fair "real world" data then?

The problem with doing that is quite simply the different levels, armor ratings, enchants, etc. that would make results kind of pointless. On top of that, there is no way to track damage. So, we're pretty much left to use Master of Damage. I politely request you put together some tests of your own and see how they compare to the damage numbers that have been posted. That's far more helpful than just calling foul.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 28, 2010, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Hiero, you are exactly correct. A 2 second spike is no indicator of a sustained DPS. I screened that because I saw a youtube video, which I posted, where a sin was doing about 200 DPS in one attack chain on the MoD. Naturally, the video cut off at 3 or 4 seconds. I was just show that I could at least do that, if not more, with my ranger.

The reason why I wanted an MW build is precisely for the reason you mention: sustained DPS. I never have energy problems with MW up, so I can spam BUH and Asuran scan all day long; hence, the massive damage spike.

As for PVP, I think scavenger's strike is a much better option. In fact, most of this thread doesn't really apply to pvp. For example, conditions and hexes are invaluable.

timbo_3101 · Jul 03, 2010, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Been playing ranger for 13m, and used a bow for the first 1000h. Role was as a supportive build through PvE-only skills, with only limited damage output.

Then played played predominantly secondary Rt using SoS for the next 1500h. Most of this was on solo H/H play (completed PvE in entirity HM). In cooperative teams, I often played Splinter Barrager because this was the expectation (not necessarily most effective). However, it required effective tanking and balling up for maximum efficiency.

When I do DoA/Glaiveway farming, DwG builds (Channel=12) usually deliver 500-1500 damage spikes (over <1sec due to latency of Ancestor's Rage and Spirit Rift) and sometimes >5000 damage at certain sections. So I tend to not to agree with rangers (or any other class) that a specific build is superior to all others or other professions quantitatively in damage output.

(Sorry am not too computer literate, but hope that the following pics can be viewed.)

I am currently using R/A Assassin's Promise spammer <500h, because this synergises well with Discordway heroes, and because my ranger gameplay is becoming somewhat monotonous. Am not too experienced at this, but it does allow me to solo H/H through many areas eg ToPK, FoW, Duncan HM.

Am a newbie in PvP, but bows seem quite effective from my limited experience.
Well, interrupting in PvP is at least reasonable compared to interrupting in HM

Therefore most of my play has been using a staff rather than a bow, but I feel there is still broad flexibility in builds available for this character class. Great topic, thanks for the interesting discussion!

Xiaquin · Jul 03, 2010, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by timbo_3101

Been playing ranger for 13m, and used a bow for the first 1000h. Role was as a supportive build through PvE-only skills, with only limited damage output.

I'm mostly support, myself, I rarely go damage anymore. Tagging up Archer's Signet and Serpent's Quickness with certain PvE skills is currently my fun.

Agree on Splinter-Barrage. It's just not worth taking when there's little chance enemies will ball up. Indeed if that was often the case, PvE would be even easier than it already is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timbo_3101

I tend to not to agree with rangers (or any other class) that a specific build is superior to all others or other professions quantitatively in damage output.

I would agree as well. There is no "one" build, or even a short-list. It greatly depends on what you are doing, who is in your party, and what's right for the situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timbo_3101

I am currently using R/A Assassin's Promise spammer <500h, because this synergises well with Discordway heroes.

So does Asuran Scan, but, with AP that opens up a lot of options. I'm curious about the rest of your build now. I'll spare the comments on the elite areas, I can't even do those.

Drege_Icebow · Jul 04, 2010, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Those are excellent screens. Glaiveway in DoA is pretty fun, as your pictures illustrate.

Amy Awien · Jul 04, 2010, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Could you maybe make these screenshots not so absurdly wide. It spreads the text beyond the screen, making it unreadable.

**Marty Silverblade** · Jul 04, 2010, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Could you maybe make these screenshots not so absurdly wide. It spreads the text beyond the screen, making it unreadable.

Guru has an auto-resize option. If it isn't shrinking them down (I think it's 800x600 by default) then you either turned it off or you have a really really small monitor. You can change the settings in the User CP.

elitenoname · Jul 05, 2010, 12:55 AM // 00:55

reading through this i didn't see anyone post or talk about the degening part of the ranger

barbed arrows
poison sig
incinerating arrows
epidemic

thats give -10 health degen to the mobs but is still ehh why do we need in a spiking group when the mobs are dead in like 2 spells used as a group? and another thing ranger have that not many other classes have is the fact they can run many other support builds just as good as the main class support builds but regardless running those builds on a ranger really isn't playing a ranger