Curse

Mintha Syl · Jun 22, 2010, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notorious Bob

Who knows how good/bad the Ranger class will be in GW2

If it's ever going to exist...so little love for the rangers...

Tenebrae · Jun 22, 2010, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

When a sin an do 200~ dps with aoe and party support and a solid group kd'ing ability with aoe gdw knockdowns is compared to a turret rangers single target damage, its pretty average

Hi , my name is Balance and im the reason why ranged weapons dont do as much damage as melee weapons.
Dont count AoE as much pal , with MoP and splinter any ranger can deal AoE and very little of that comes from MS/DB and you know it ..... more than 60% of the times , sins only achieve 1-2 chains (with luck) on a target, not a spam.

Comparing an unbuffed Turret ranger against a bloody buffed sin ( self buffs count , cough cough *criticalagility&/AoHM*cough ) is not fair. Sorry to call this BS but if SoH affected Rangers too we wont be having this conversation because you know , a Prep Turret would have :
-Asuran scan
-Ebsoh ( yeah , melee mobility is a bitch right ? )
-Soh
-GDW
-OoP
-0,1-1seg. time between target switching

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Almost anything is more use than a ranger...regardless of rank. sadly..

A ranger can do almost anything , unlike 90% of the other classes so ... seems balanced to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Tell that to the rangers who all run full offense turret bars...yano the 150~dps ones...that were compared to a spirit ranger...without the whole bar, the dps drops right off making them even less useful.

Yeah because buffedashell sins have only 4 skills devoted to damage right ? . All DPS bars have at least 5 skills and 2+ buffs/utilities.

Again , the point of this thread is solved with this equation :
Not being omfg-Ipwnwith3hitsbuffedashell =\= useless
Mid terms do exist , thanks for reading.

Showtime · Jun 22, 2010, 10:17 PM // 22:17

This has been a fun read, but one side has to be more right than the other, right?

Let's face it, whether bows are weak or not, the perception is that they are. No group wants rangers for their bow skills in HM. That's a fact so unless you have an uber bow build that us rangers can take down toa and find a pug with.... Give me any build that's great for a primary Ranger and I'll be thankful. There isn't one and unless we get a buff or 5+ other classes get a big nerf...

Rangers are easily the most nerfed class overall imo. Maybe it's because I play one and notice each nerf. I think it has to do with Rangers being 1 of the most popular classes. Probably 2nd only to the warrior for new people starting out. So every time people find a build that works and rangers start rolling, it gets nerfed. I don't recall having as much time with my b/p or splinter ranger as these sin teams that roam fow and uw. I also think a lot of nerfs and buffs and general changes in the game are set by game designers with their own personal agenda. Sins initially sucked. Now they can tank, spike, solo, play in teams full of them, and play in balanced teams. WOW! Some designers decided to give them lots of love. BUT my problem with that is that they weren't originally designed to play all those rolls. They were supposed to be a newly added niche class. Mage killer/ spiker. The Ranger was the original jackknife of all trades and now is really limited imo. Much easier for me h/h or team with 1 other player and their heros than to find a pug. If it weren't for my really nice heros, I wouldn't even play my ranger or the game any more. I can run any build with my ranger, but the primary build for which they were created isn't wanted. It's not just the bows. They have nerfed or failed to buff rangers for a while now. Pets.. nuff said. Traps? Wtf was up with nerfing traps? I love rit spirits and run spirits builds mainly on my heros now. Spirits are sooo much better than traps ever were.

BOWS! B/p... dead! Barrage.. dead! I loved splinter weapon and being able to contribute a large amount of damage. Why nerf it? There was no reason to nerf it except to remove a ranger and add a.... sin? Always hated BHA and it's now obsolete. Liked to spread conditions and interrupting, but my exploding minions do it almost as well and Mesmers do it better. Burning arrow meh give me much more burning/damage plz. Cripplin < YMLAD. Poison see above. Marksman wager/oath shot < AP. Though I am trying out a wager build. Pain cuz arrows miss. My favorite bow attack is Ebon Sniper!!! Yeah 1 shot 1 kill ftw! Wait that's not a RANGER bow attack.

Oh well for all my pretty bows. Had some nice looking bows. Storms, eternals, zods, etc. Been so long don't remember if I customized that tormented recurve and put it on a hero or sold it. Maybe I'll customize a torm staff since I use a staff way more than a bow.

SHOW ME THE BUILD or basically, in pve groups, bows are obsolete.

RedDog91 · Jun 22, 2010, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Ranger is my all-time favorite profession because there are so few of them. And the ones that you do see are always splinter/barrage and they are only doing dungeons or elite missions.

I have found the bow to be a bit lacking in the damage department, but thats nothing a good damage buff skill can't fix. Dependant on what bow you use, you may have the longest range of attack out of anyone in your group. Meaning you can attack from far enough away that you rarely get hurt. In my opinion, the best offense is a good defense. Attacking with a bow from far away means you live longer, and someone who can deal 30 damage 100 times is better than someone who can deal 50 damage 50 times.

maxxfury · Jun 22, 2010, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Comparing an unbuffed Turret ranger against a bloody buffed sin ( self buffs count , cough cough *criticalagility&/AoHM*cough ) is not fair. Sorry to call this BS but if SoH affected Rangers too we wont be having this conversation because you know , a Prep Turret would have :
-Asuran scan
-Ebsoh ( yeah , melee mobility is a bitch right ? )
-Soh
-GDW
-OoP
-0,1-1seg. time between target switching

A ranger can do almost anything , unlike 90% of the other classes so ... seems balanced to me.

Yeah because buffedashell sins have only 4 skills devoted to damage right ? . All DPS bars have at least 5 skills and 2+ buffs/utilities.

Again , the point of this thread is solved with this equation :
Not being omfg-Ipwnwith3hitsbuffedashell =\= useless
Mid terms do exist , thanks for reading.

i was just comparing what they can have, no unbuffed crap vs buffed crap here 'pal'. It was just the bars and what they can fit on their own.. and a smilir check with what they can have buffed, and they all carry the same buffs except the ranger had ebsoh and the melee had soh, yano, in fairness...to keep the buff levels around even..

melee dps bars do dedicate a lot of offence, but can also deliver a massive amount of kd's and deep wounds, agro control and bodyblocking. . when turret rangers dedicate their bar, its a full bar for single target dps without the extra good stuff, still lacks in damage, and that doesnt make up for the

the mobility issue is only an issue if you cant manage agro 90% of the time..which out weighs the alternative. quicker switching of targets, unless your frontline are just bad or leave them selves stuck in flail or whatevers. From experience of playing a range as barrage, turrets, melee ect...the melee just simply does it faster and more effectively.

doin almost anything is only useful when anything they do is needed? they can interupt? meh very rarely needed. Condition spam? the conditions are mostly a waste of time, bleeding? poison? a little daze? everyone here says techno babble>bha anyway...
your basically left with dealing damage.
And they just dont do it that well with bows...unless your team is good at agro and spec your team for it for big barrage lulz, or you take a melee setup.
Quick note: melee aoe, mop aoe, splinter aoe are all the same range as barrages aoe, and no one complains about melee/mop/splinter's aoe, so barrage is no worse for been able to hit with..

Tho i agree on your last part 100%! not been optimal =/= useless! but they are underpowered, check the other 'regular' posters here, like Fay ect who dont use bows as they just dont cut the mustard.. but you can get away with very lacking bars and still win in pve. Not useless but deffo underpowered and outdated now kinda like elem doing damages...

Tho ill not argue as everyone plays differently, with varying skill levels..some people just cant handle positioning or play anything but cspace 123 or tab space 123, to which i blame the discord generation power creep, and the lack of need, when you can bumble thru.. and ill leave it at that..

Drege_Icebow · Jun 22, 2010, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Showtime

This has been a fun read, but one side has to be more right than the other, right?

Let's face it, whether bows are weak or not, the perception is that they are. No group wants rangers for their bow skills in HM. That's a fact so unless you have an uber bow build that us rangers can take down toa and find a pug with.... Give me any build that's great for a primary Ranger and I'll be thankful. There isn't one and unless we get a buff or 5+ other classes get a big nerf...

Since you asked:

Welcome to Physway

PVX article

I am not a big fan of the barrage bar they have. Barrage is slower to fire and mobs aren't always bunched together so I believe adrenaline gain would be slower than a turret bar (expert focus, prepared shot, penetrating/sundering attack). You can always add in infuriating heat if your party needs more SY.

The point is to get a group of friends, not pugs, and have fun. Physway is the way the game is supposed to be played, and it works.

Charlotte the Harlot · Jun 22, 2010, 11:59 PM // 23:59

no one kills a regular monster faster than a ranger. Assassin has to run up get body blocked etc etc, ranger can kill someone as soon as the encounter starts- and then do it again a couple seconds later. GDW barrage is awesome does a lot of aoe dmg+ kd as well as having interrupts and half a skill bar of utility, no other class can do that as well. Bow is far from useless its just really easy to make a bad bar if you don't know how to play pve ranger.

RedDog91 · Jun 23, 2010, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlotte the Harlot

no one kills a regular monster faster than a ranger. Assassin has to run up get body blocked etc etc, ranger can kill someone as soon as the encounter starts- and then do it again a couple seconds later. GDW barrage is awesome does a lot of aoe dmg+ kd as well as having interrupts and half a skill bar of utility, no other class can do that as well. Bow is far from useless its just really easy to make a bad bar if you don't know how to play pve ranger.

Yes, but GDW is dependent on some1 using it on you. I think they want self-maintainment.

Showtime · Jun 23, 2010, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Once again the arguments are for making a particular group and playing certain way to achieve lesser results than I could get from rolling a sin and playing that in any of sc pugs.

And sins don't get body blocked much unfortunately. They kinda jump in and kickass like nobodys buisness and then move to the next group. My ranger wants to be a sin when he grows up. His friends keep picking on him cuz he doesn't have daggers, but I think that's just not right.

So rather then continuing to argue, make a full build that offers the same results timewise and tons of rangers will come out to play your build.

I was thinking something along the lines of rangers and necros with lots of bone fiends and OoU all set up in EBSOH, favorable winds, winnowing... But then I realize that any build that requires ranger spirits probably won't move very fast.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 23, 2010, 02:38 AM // 02:38

It's called summon spirits.

Xiaquin · Jun 23, 2010, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

melee dps bars do dedicate a lot of offence, but can also deliver a massive amount of kd's and deep wounds

They can, but I don't really see teams making use of them. I pretty much see them skilled for damage.

agro control...... the mobility issue is only an issue if you cant manage agro 90% of the time

Unless "control" is "run up ahead of the party to get aggro focused on you and almost die before the monk gets in range", sure. The only time you see competent, controlled aggro working is on a dedicated team. Average teams have no concept of this, and besides, now it's on minions/spirits anyway.

when turret rangers dedicate their bar, its a full bar for single target dps without the extra good stuff, still lacks in damage, and that doesnt make up for the

You can run a damage build and not use more than half a bar. A couple of attacks, a couple of augments are all you need. If you are "turreting", you don't need a bajillion attacks, you should be using low recharge skills that you can spam.

quicker switching of targets..the melee just simply does it faster and more effectively.

Really? Stretch your character's arm out, how far does it reach? Because my bow can reach anything in an aggro circle, and I don't have to move. I'm not seeing where melee is faster, but, it's your experience, so, moving on.

they can interupt? meh very rarely needed.

and knockdowns are?

the conditions are mostly a waste of time, a little daze? everyone here says techno babble>bha anyway

Poison, bleed, burning aren't extremely helpful. However, rangers can do more than a "little" daze. BHA and Concussion Shot easily triple the daze that Technobabble does, and they will affect bosses, unlike TB (and you need at least r8 Asura to get the maximum 5 seconds out of it).

I'm not trying to say the bow is fine the way it is; it does need an update, but I'll defend its current usefulness to death.

Tenebrae · Jun 23, 2010, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

i was just comparing what they can have, no unbuffed crap vs buffed crap here 'pal'. It was just the bars and what they can fit on their own.. and a smilir check with what they can have buffed, and they all carry the same buffs except the ranger had ebsoh and the melee had soh, yano, in fairness...to keep the buff levels around even..

Oh no , you were soz.
You are comparing the Bow damage with the most overpowered buffedashell melee DPS , the MS/DB or Critscythe sin and thats unfair. Everything , warrior included is "underpowered" under those circumstances .... its just that the bow user happens to be the last in the list , just that.
You argued AoE KDs in favor of sins when rangers can do the same and we all know it. Barrage is BS but if stuff is balled enough to make sins AoE KD shine .... then barrage also shines , may be not so so so bright but not so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

melee dps bars do dedicate a lot of offence, but can also deliver a massive amount of kd's and deep wounds, agro control and bodyblocking.

See ? KDs are not exclusive with GDW around and ofc they can body block lol if they didnt deal good damage and body block why would anyone want a melee ?. Anyway , minions meat shield are there for something too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

when turret rangers dedicate their bar, its a full bar for single target dps without the extra good stuff, still lacks in damage, and that doesnt make up for the the mobility issue is only an issue if you cant manage agro 90% of the time..which out weighs the alternative.

Yeah whatever , buffed Sins on 200 dps , buffed warriors on 180 , buffed rangers on 160 ... if things are dying impressively fast and theres no long battle to see dif whats the diff between switching 1 sin/w for a turret ? almost none. Great diff comes from SoH , 3 melee with SoH >>> 3 Turrets with Ebsoh , but not 2 SoHmelee +1 turret.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

From experience of playing a range as barrage, turrets, melee ect...the melee just simply does it faster and more effectively.

Yeah whatever, you save some minutes , ok. Which of them is easier ? its easier to find a good melee that can coordinate with the others or a decent turret ranger ? in my experience , the second hands down. But yes , you can have your cookie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Tho i agree on your last part 100%! not been optimal =/= useless!

Once again , not being overpowered =\= being underpowered. Things were pretty fine before SoH changes and EoTN release but you know , shit happens.
Funny thing is that , the most needed change to rangers is not bow damage , is wildernesss survival ( traps and spirits ). Any ranger is fine with dealing little less damage and staying out of kill zone because they can play melee also if they want but .... we miss 1 att line with good skills and thats WS.

maxxfury · Jun 23, 2010, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

You are comparing the Bow damage with the most overpowered buffedashell melee DPS , the MS/DB or Critscythe sin and thats unfair. Everything , warrior included is "underpowered" under those circumstances .

Barrage is BS but if stuff is balled enough to make sins AoE KD shine .... then barrage also shines , may be not so so so bright but not so far.

See ? KDs are not exclusive with GDW

Yeah whatever , buffed Sins on 200 dps , buffed warriors on 180 , buffed rangers on 160 ... if things are dying impressively fast and theres no long battle to see dif whats the diff between switching 1 sin/w for a turret ? almost none. Great diff comes from SoH , 3 melee with SoH >>> 3 Turrets with Ebsoh , but not 2 SoHmelee +1 turret.

you can have your cookie.

Funny thing is that , the most needed change to rangers is not bow damage , is wildernesss survival ( traps and spirits ) .... we miss 1 att line with good skills and thats WS.

I was using r/a version to compare with mate

and you do get better dps if you take buh! scan, iats, but thats kinda selfish to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO all buffs your self and not share

*buh is easy upkeep with spirits/er around.

Pondering WS now, tho i think an entire design overhaul for that spec isnt gonna happen dude

...just knowin how anet works..sadly..

And ty for my cookie :P tho i never used barrage to compare anything, as its almost a swear work around here xD

I do actually use a prepshot turret my self when not using daggers, and did so more often before, GA/Mw/zv ect a elites are even less effective for the most part. Its easy to play, lazy, and gets the job done*,

Its just not as good as i feel it should be for the trade off's you make, and it was better before they messed with pene/sunder too! And when you can get by faster with a gimped spec in another weapon....i feel that leads it to not be overpowered enough when compared to the power creep junk.
but indeed not useless (as ive said all along

) infact it propably IS balanced, its just everything else thats broken... but if the broke stuff aint gonna get fixed, bows need a little power creep too

everyone else is gettin it after all

I wont discuss barrage with bows here tho as i know where THAT topic will lead :P

*but sadly, so does a lot of crap as we all know

pokes pug players snowflake bars

and most of my play after 5 years is to make and run the best possible effective bars, when not farting around with friends

i guess others have different priorities...or have played a lot less..?

*edit: wow a lot of

jay! lol

Charlotte the Harlot · Jun 23, 2010, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Showtime

Once again the arguments are for making a particular group and playing certain way to achieve lesser results than I could get from rolling a sin and playing that in any of sc pugs.

And sins don't get body blocked much unfortunately. They kinda jump in and kickass like nobodys buisness and then move to the next group. My ranger wants to be a sin when he grows up. His friends keep picking on him cuz he doesn't have daggers, but I think that's just not right.

So rather then continuing to argue, make a full build that offers the same results timewise and tons of rangers will come out to play your build.

I was thinking something along the lines of rangers and necros with lots of bone fiends and OoU all set up in EBSOH, favorable winds, winnowing... But then I realize that any build that requires ranger spirits probably won't move very fast.

Go play a marksmans wager build. It does have better results than a sin for its purpose. When the skills are charged you can kill or get below 80% anyone in your aggro bubble (or longbow range if they are standing still) a sin has to run up to each target and once they do it still takes them slightly longer to kill basically any non-giant foe. You only need so much dps attacking the main group of enemies, even if the rangers dps is slightly lower in practice picking off separated or vital enemies quickly will significantly speed up your group compared to adding a third assassin or warrior. Not to mention a ranger is a hell of a lot less stress on your backline and having someone who can easily and safely maintain and EBSoH anywhere on the battlefield is very useful.

Also to everyone, barrage should not be underestimated. It needs the group to be built around it a little but with lots of good buffs a bar with tripple shot and barrage has great single at mob damage.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 26, 2010, 12:19 AM // 00:19

This is what happens when I cut the time off right after I do a run through one of my spike bars:

234 DPS

543 damage spike in 1 second.

I am sorry, but bows are not broken.

Xiaquin · Jun 26, 2010, 01:36 AM // 01:36

So far I've seen Drege and myself posting damage results with our bows but I haven't seen any melee numbers put up to dispute them. I have a Dervish myself but she's not quite as capable without titles to be a fair comparison.

And again, even if others post up and can meet or exceed bow dps, is that really the point? It's been proven that damage and range are a powerful combination.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 26, 2010, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

So far I've seen Drege and myself posting damage results with our bows but I haven't seen any melee numbers put up to dispute them. I have a Dervish myself but she's not quite as capable without titles to be a fair comparison.

And again, even if others post up and can meet or exceed bow dps, is that really the point? It's been proven that damage and range are a powerful combination.

I am trying to build a Marksman's Wager build. If I can get the right build combinations, I think a new ranger paradigm can be created.

EDIT: Here's the winner folks. With a bow, I have managed to churn out:

593 damage over 2 seconds, with death occurring at 2 seconds,
399 damage spike,
& 296 DPS.

The best part about this build is that it uses Marksman's Wager, so you can spam the crap out of your bar.

I will continue to test. What is particularly intriguing about this build is the ability to spam Concussion Shot. Lead off with that, and you are guaranteed to have caster shutdown. Dazed will make a caster think twice about being interrupted; so, follow-up with a sloth, and pew pew with penetrating, and sundering. I suspect this will mega ownage in RA...

Essence Snow · Jun 26, 2010, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drege_Icebow

I suspect this will mega ownage in RA...

Except the PvE only skills which cuts dmg by 1/2

Drege_Icebow · Jun 26, 2010, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Ok, scratch that part about it being good in RA.

Drege_Icebow · Jun 26, 2010, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Except the PvE only skills which cuts dmg by 1/2

Yea, but the problems in RA are Mesmers and Monks. If you spam conc shot with Marksman, then you shut them down. That part of the build works. The problem is damage. I could put a poison/bleed combo in there, or beef up a dire pet. I am going to have to tweak it some more.