Curse

G4ymBoy · Jul 28, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Nice I thought I was the only one using marksman wager. I like expensive bow attacks too much. Plus EBSoH makes me giggle. Use what you want people. Just have fun.

Xiaquin · Jul 29, 2010, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Hmm...almost everything has been said! But I'll throw my hat out for HM builds.

First, OP, I'm glad you saw the light and found Dwarven Stability. It's perfect to keep LR going. Asuran Scan is also nice, but getting spammy with it is a quick way to sap your energy. I almost always pack Glass Arrows if I run damage, and normally avoid all but one attack or an interrupt. I really just prefer to buff damage and IAS and leave the rest of the build to utility. (EVAS, PI, etc.)

Speaking of utility, one of the more recent builds I've gone for is Archer's Signet. Pair it with useful conditions like weakness (YaaW) and daze (Technobabble), even cripple (YmlaD/Pin Down). I've had a PUG leader tell me it's "strange", but, then the other ranger in the group pinged, complete with barrage, a preparation and Heal Party.

Chthon · Jul 29, 2010, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

All of PvE matters, you can not vanquish/guardian a campaign without doing all of the content.

Some content is harder than other content. You need AoE to beat some of the hard stuff. Anything at all can finish the easy stuff.

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If you want to ball these up as a ranger with H&H, you're going to have to go melee yourself.

Practice better positioning.

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There's no rule that states you cannot bring Triple Shot alongside those.
What skills are better to bring then Triple Shot?

If your build already has IAS, SY!, adequate e-management, FGJ, and two other (better) attack skills, then feel free to make Triple Shot your third attack skill. However, (1) I seriously doubt you can make a build that covers all those bases and still has a spare PvE slot, and (2) it's time to look at Savage Shot/D-Shot now that HM monster cast times are not insane anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteAsIce

Because the Warrior's Godsword build focuses on spamming Dslash on a single target, and is supposedly "PvE Meta"?

I'm not sure who determines "the meta," but they seem to be a bunch of idiots....

In any event, you are comparing apples and oranges: Dslash builds are good enough for their purpose, which is to maintain SY! with 100% uptime. I've been talking about builds with a different purpose: damage output. If you wanted to compare to a damage-oriented warrior build, you'd be looking at a 100Blades+Whirlwind build (who usually teams with an AP-MoP necro player). And, guess what, that's an AoE build, isn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Just remembering for anyone that an IAS affects only auto-attacks and attack skills without an activation time. The same is true also for the ineherent attack speed of any weapon.

No. This is wrong. MaaKotka is correct. IAS effects that speed of fixed-activation-time attacks. The most obvious test can be performed with Renewing Smash -- under 33% IAS you can hit a target 4x during a 3sec KD, which would obviously be impossible if the activation speed were not reduced.

WhiteAsIce · Jul 29, 2010, 05:26 AM // 05:26

AoE damage or strong spike?
Would you rather have 4 targets at 50% health, or one target dead with a second at 10% health? In the time it takes to kill a group of targets with Barrage, you could've killed one or two using high-powered single target hits. When foes can heal, this makes a big difference. Why try to use AoE when their monk can outheal it, when you should be spiking down that monk?

Amy Awien · Jul 29, 2010, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You need AoE to beat some of the hard stuff. Anything at all can finish the easy stuff.

Is your skilbar fixed or what? So you keep the AoE skills on your bar where it they're not effective just because they are so helpfull in the

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Practice better positioning.

Lol. Try playing more and bluffing less.

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If your build already has IAS, SY!, adequate e-management, FGJ, and two other (better) attack skills, then feel free to make Triple Shot your third attack skill.

I don't feel the need to adjust my builds around whatever nonsense someone spits out on a forum.

Why do you need SY! so bad that you use your secondary and two slots for it, is it that killing stuff with (splinter) Barrage takes so long? Maybe they don't ball up quite as good as you believe.

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... it's time to look at Savage Shot/D-Shot now that HM monster cast times are not insane anymore.

About the first and only sensible comment in your post.

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I'm not sure who determines "the meta," but they seem to be a bunch of idiots....

And you aren't? Believe what you want, run what you like, but just stop calling/implying everyone else to be idiots.

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IAS effects that speed of fixed-activation-time attacks.

They don't, tried and tested, without relying on the accuracy of animations.

G4ymBoy · Jul 29, 2010, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Savage and Dshot have not left my bar since the HM update. I am actually wishing for a buff to ranger elite interupts (not holding my breath). Interupting is more possible in HM and it feels nice.

Swahnee · Jul 29, 2010, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Wiki: Increased or decreased attack speed effects also affect attack skills that have an activation time.

My bad for not having researched enough.

However, i don't see how an IAS can improve the damage of the build i posted, since it's based on attack skills spamming, not regular attacks, so you shoot arrows faster, but you still have to wait the recharge of the skills (slowed, after all, if you use LR instead of SQ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

You could learn a lot from reading threads I linked.

Links?

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BTW prescision shot sucks.

Then, what's better?

Avarax · Jul 29, 2010, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

On topic, I'm spending a lot of time now with my ranger, and up to now my favourite build is a variant of the sundering/penetrating spam:

OgATcVMmZ6UyxAyw14tMX8uE5A

I've played it and if the enemy blocks you run out of energy in two shots. I prefer Prepared Shot build because of not having energy problems at all. Last time I'm playing something like this:

OgASc5MTvl5WnStShhFHpizk

sometimes Penetrating for Needling or SY for BuH.

I play SoS/MM/SS or Panic or another Rit on my heroes.

For EotN, especially Charr Homelands I run Barrage/EBSoH/SY because of huge amount of mobs:

OgETcZ8kZax4xQ1Yms44qIGMXEA

I also like scythe builds:

OgoicxpM9WCgNgJg1clKWcIDCA Dwarven Stability for BuH sometimes

OgojYpXa6SAYCYNXvl8g0GygCAA (Pet version)

And pet/dagger build:

OgcTY1r2X6t0hhh5g5UUWiHk2AA

Swahnee · Jul 29, 2010, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarax

I've played it and if the enemy blocks you run out of energy in two shots. I prefer Prepared Shot build because of not having energy problems at all.

Yap, also if you are blinded or blurred or whatever, but why would you shoot if you are blinded or blocked?

I've tried the Prepared Shot variant, but i've had really a lot of problems with energy, without counting the fact that Prepared Shot is very slow with a hornbow. Maybe you use another bow, also because in your build the only "spammable" attack skill is sundering, then Prepared with a recharge of 6 secs, and needling which you use only on target under 50%, so i assume that you make also low-damage autoattacks between the skills. If this is the case, i continue to prefer the MW variant, which allows me to go on spamming only high damage attack skills.

Then, if i see that i'm blinded or blocked, i simply stop attacking or change target, what's wrong with that? If you are blinded or your arrows are blocked, however, you still don't do any damage with any build.

Avarax · Jul 29, 2010, 10:20 AM // 10:20

You don't know if you'll get block or not

I play Prep->Sunder->Penetrating in areas in which mobs doesn't drop under 50% after Prep + Sunder + hero dmg. If they do just press Needling and they die in few seconds. I agree it's not spammable build, I prefer to spike one target then next and next...

Swahnee · Jul 29, 2010, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Yes, the same as me, but i hate staying without doing anything even for a short period, i'm too used with my warrior who can spam attacks night and day

. I've actually used needling for a period, and it was nice, i simply found i prefer precision shot to cycle through the attacks without stopping when a monster has high health, instead of doing: sunder, prep, wait for the recharge, sund, prep, wait for the recharge, etc..The third attack doesn't do an awesome damage, but at least is something instead of waiting. And, if i see that one shot is blocked, i immediately stop attacking that monster, and swap target. Yes, it isn't exactly blinding spamming skills, a little awareness is required, but it isn't so much after all.

MaaKotka · Jul 29, 2010, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

My bad for not having researched enough.

However, i don't see how an IAS can improve the damage of the build i posted, since it's based on attack skills spamming, not regular attacks, so you shoot arrows faster, but you still have to wait the recharge of the skills (slowed, after all, if you use LR instead of SQ).

Even with your build you need to do autoattacks every now and then or you will spend time just standing still. Also ias increases the speed of your fast attack skills too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

My bad for not having researched enough.
Links?

Read my post on first page.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Then, what's better?

You are obviously using precision shot for its fast attack, thing is it is unreliable. Also it is on 6s recharge so it forces you to do autoattack or stand still. I'd use needling instead of it on your build.

Why hornbow isn't that great: It increases your damage on average around 1-2 damage per hit with the cost of really slow attack speed. You simply gain more for attacking faster. Even your build has to autoattack sometimes.

On the build discussion, this is what I use OgATcZ8kZyx4UK36tMME5YmMXEA. I also use candies for attack speed. If you don't want to use candies, I don't know which is better sq or some ias.

Two reasons I don't like MV. First it doesn't add damage and second you lose energy for whatever reason not hitting.

Edit: About on aoe vs single target damage and SY discussion. In general hm pve you really don't need sy or hassle to keep enemies in adjacent range for barrage to be effective. I find most hm pve to be actually faster with single target dps than with adjacent range aoe because you don't have to use time to keep enemies balled. But on harder areas barrage will be much more effective when used correctly. SY i find still better to have someone else bring it, if you really need it.

Swahnee · Jul 29, 2010, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

Even with your build you need to do autoattacks every now and then or you will spend time just standing still. Also ias increases the speed of your fast attack skills too.

Ehm, have you tried that precise build? With Serpent's Quickness and using those 3 attack skills you never have to stand still, after having shot the third attack, the first has already recharged, and you can start a new cycle again.

Then, as i said before, what's the deal with increasing the speed of the attack skills if they have a fixed recharge? I never have to autoattack, i only use attack skills, so i use them when they are ready, and IAS doesn't make them recharge faster. Maybe i should gain some tiny bit with an IAS because i'm ready to restart the cycle some fraction of second before, but if i give up to serpent's quickness for the IAS, then i would have to wait for the recharge of the skills (adding those waiting times you talked about) and so i would lost any advantage brought by the IAS. An IAS in this build would be effective if the attack skills had a lower recharge time, so that the first is recharged when i'm performing the second attack, and performing it faster would mean being able to hit the first again within a lesser time than the case without the IAS. But this isn't my case, my attack skills aren't so quickly recharged.

An IAS would be good if i had, say, adrenaline attacks, so attacking faster (even with fixed activation time) would mean building adrenaline faster, and having the other attacks active more quickly. But, again, this is not our situation.

Quote:

You are obviously using precision shot for its fast attack, thing is it is unreliable. Also it is on 6s recharge so it forces you to do autoattack or stand still. I'd use needling instead of it on your build.

Again, precision shot doesn't force me to autoattack between the recharge of the skills. You are not taking into account the effect of serpent's quickness. Instead, it's using needling shot that would force me to wait, because i could use it only on targets under 50% health. I use needling when i'm sure that after the first two shots target is already under 50% (taking into account also the damage from teammates), so i can start immediately spamming it without having to wait the recharge of the other two.

I used needling shot in tyria normal mode, and actually monsters dropped under 50% after the first 2 shots, so i could immediately start spamming needling shot. But in EoTN or HM monster don't fall under 50% after the first two shots, so my concern was that i had to wait for their recharge to go on attacking. For this reason i decided to use precision shot instead of needling, and it worked better indeed.

Quote:

Why hornbow isn't that great: It increases your damage on average around 1-2 damage per hit with the cost of really slow attack speed. You simply gain more for attacking faster. Even your build has to autoattack sometimes.

As i already said in one of my previous post, the build is designed to gain advantage from the armor penetration of the hornbow, without paying its disadvantage. The attack speed isn't slow because, as yourself noted before, the ineherent attack speed of the hornbow doesn't influence attack skills with a fixed activation time. And, again, i never have to autoattack, the skills' recharge is low enough.

Quote:

About on aoe vs single target damage and SY discussion. In general hm pve you really don't need sy or hassle to keep enemies in adjacent range for barrage to be effective. I find most hm pve to be actually faster with single target dps than with adjacent range aoe because you don't have to use time to keep enemies balled. But on harder areas barrage will be much more effective when used correctly. SY i find still better to have someone else bring it, if you really need it.

QFT.

MaaKotka · Jul 29, 2010, 12:03 PM // 12:03

You should know this if you actually use your build effectively. Precision shot's recharge with sq is 4s. sund and pene combined attack time is 1,5s. so after sund->pene->prec->sund->pene-> you have around 2s downtime when you could be autoattacking or you are standing still.

Also if you can't get targets under 50% with sund+pene+other team damage you are doing something wrong (which is more likely) or you are doing area that you would do better using barrage.

As I have stated before you could learn a lot from reading threads I linked.

Swahnee · Jul 29, 2010, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

You should know this if you actually use your build effectively. Precision shot's recharge with sq is 4s. sund and pene combined attack time is 1,5s. so after sund->pene->prec->sund->pene-> you have around 2s downtime when you could be autoattacking or you are standing still.

Please. Load that build and go spamming attacks on some mob, and see if there is all that delay you are talking about. You are not considering a lot of things, for example the aftercast, the fact that the delay due to the difference in recharge between the skills is spread over several cycles, the fact that after a few cycle you have to stop to renew Dwarven's Stability+Serpent's Quickness+MW, the fact that you have also to spam Asuran Scan and EBSoH sometimes between attacks, and that when you spend time to use those other skills, the difference between the recharges of the skills become zero, because the three skills are recharged.

There is no problem if you haven't tried this build, every suggestion is welcome, and i'm not here to take part in a flame war. But please, don't try to argue only for the sake of it, pretending to know everything about how this build works, without even having tried it.

Quote:

Also if you can't get targets under 50% with sund+pene+other team damage you are doing something wrong (which is more likely) or you are doing area that you would do better using barrage.

If i can't get a monster in HM down under 50% in 2 seconds there's something wrong? And how barrage (aoe) is connected with the fact that i cannot bring a target under 50% fast enough (single target). If i can't kill an isolated monster fast enough with this build i should bring barrage instead? Sorry, but i really don't understand this.

Quote:

As I have stated before you could learn a lot from reading threads I linked.

Actual arguments are welcome.

MaaKotka · Jul 29, 2010, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Please. Load that build and go spamming attacks on some mob, and see if there is all that delay you are talking about. You are not considering a lot of things, for example the aftercast, the fact that the delay due to the difference in recharge between the skills is spread over several cycles, the fact that after a few cycle you have to stop to renew Dwarven's Stability+Serpent's Quickness+MW, the fact that you have also to spam Asuran Scan and EBSoH sometimes between attacks, and that when you spend time to use those other skills, the difference between the recharges of the skills become zero, because the three skills are recharged.

You should apply those long lasting buffs just before the battle and mob should be pretty much dead when those run out so you actually don't need to use the downtime to refresh all those things. You are still going to cast asuran scan, but it takes only 0,75s and the downtime is around 2,5s with ias so you are left with 1,75s to attack one autoattack and with short/flatbow with ias it takes around 1,6s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

There is no problem if you haven't tried this build, every suggestion is welcome, and i'm not here to take part in a flame war. But please, don't try to argue only for the sake of it, pretending to know everything about how this build works, without even having tried it.

I don't have to test your build to see that downtime because it is pretty much same as the build I use. Your downtime is a bit longer than mine because precision shot is faster than prep shot, but their recharge is same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

If i can't get a monster in HM down under 50% in 2 seconds there's something wrong? And how barrage (aoe) is connected with the fact that i cannot bring a target under 50% fast enough (single target). If i can't kill an isolated monster fast enough with this build i should bring barrage instead? Sorry, but i really don't understand this.

Reading comprehension ftw.

Let me write it again. You are either doing something wrong OR you are facing mobs that you do better fighting with barrage and correct aggro control. So if you can't get isolated monster to come down to 50% health within couple of seconds yes you are doing something wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Actual arguments are welcome.

I'm not too fond of explaining everything again that has already been explained in the threads I linked.

Swahnee · Jul 29, 2010, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

I'm not too fond of explaining everything again that has already been explained in the threads I linked.

This is an old trick, son. I'm feeling like a stupid for having done all this work trying to explaining to you that i'll never, ever seen those downtimes you are talking about. Be happy with your bows, that i'll be happy with mine.

MaaKotka · Jul 29, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Nah it's not a trick atleast not this time. Those threads cover pretty much everything about ranger dps with bow, some maths included. If you want to learn I suggest you to read those threads, if you don't, I couldn't care less unless you give some bad advise to ppl.

Haggis of Doom · Jul 29, 2010, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

It means that if you are shooting even 1 shot without activation time bonus you are losing somewhere 30-100 worth of damage you need to compensate with 10%ap from hornbow.

Gneu? How'd you get 100 dmg on an auto-attack?

Amy Awien · Jul 29, 2010, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaaKotka

... sund and pene combined attack time is 1,5s. so after sund->pene->prec->sund->pene-> you have

They received an aftercast last januari, I believe, which is why the activationtime of some skills was reduced to 3/4 seconds (to compensate). It's not as noticable as the aftercast on interrupts, but still, quite annoying.

===========================================

Anyway, because of the machinegunner builds not being all that practical (anymore) I never bothered to redo the tests I did with the skillchanges in 2008. So I made a try now, and it is ... unexpected.

I used Quick Shot, Sundering and Penetrating Attack, Serpents Quickness and Dwarven Stability to make chaining them possible again, Rapid Fire as the IAS and Zealous Renewal as measurement instrument (20 second recharge 1 e per hit on end). Horn and Flatbows with Zealous mod plus Succor from a hero for energy.

There were little differences between Hornbow and Flatbow, some difference between IAS and no-IAS. Without IAS the bows reached 17 and 16 hits in 20 seconds, with IAS around 20 and 19 respectively. That brings the 33% IAS to about 15% and the difference between bowtypes surprisingly low.

Maybe someone can verify results, with aftercasts and 3/4 and 1 sec skills mixed, proper timing might be more important / difficult then it used to be.

================================================
On a side note, if you're already speccing in Wilderness Survival, you could bring Scavenger's Focus for e-management, which doesn't take your prep-slot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Gneu? How'd you get 100 dmg on an auto-attack?

Asuran Scan + Glass Arrows + EBSoH/IATS + Conjure
5/3 * (20 + 12 + 15) = 80 armor ignoring bonus damage