Curse

ogre_jd · Dec 05, 2010, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

As for everything else, I'll say it again. IT IS THE PLAYER'S FAULT IF THE PET DISENGAGES THE TARGET.
The attack option will lock the pet on target and keep it there. After that, you can run around, attack another target, or sit down and do nothing...the pet stays on that target.
If you think your pet's AI is bad, then you are doing something wrong. If theres one person that can do it right (and there a lot more than just one...), then it's clearly not the AI.

It's not the pet disengaging from its current target that's the problem, really, it's what the pet does once the target's dead that is the problem - ie, head right back to you until you start attacking something else instead of, like the H/H, choosing a new nearby aggressive foe to attack on their own. They waste so much time running back to you, then turning around to run back to the fight that they become *VERY* inefficient.

RedDog91 · Dec 05, 2010, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

It's not the pet disengaging from its current target that's the problem, really, it's what the pet does once the target's dead that is the problem - ie, head right back to you until you start attacking something else instead of, like the H/H, choosing a new nearby aggressive foe to attack on their own. They waste so much time running back to you, then turning around to run back to the fight that they become *VERY* inefficient.

Getting tired of having to repeat myself...
I'll just copy and paste

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

Its an easy thing to fix. Like a said a few posts ago, just spend a good couple of days practicing with it. You'll figure out how to control the pet to never break target and how to keep it from running back to you after every kill. It takes a lot of work, but its worth the effort.

Also, nothing is forcing you to run a pet build. The OP wanted input on creating a viable beastmastery build. If you personally don't like using and/or know how to use a beastmastery build, then I don't see why you are posting here...

Amy Awien · Dec 05, 2010, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

... it's what the pet does once the target's dead that is the problem - ie, head right back to you until you start attacking something else ...

Ok, I guess that could easily be happening when you're running pure beastmaster and don't attack much yourself, attacking would be an obvious solution.

Something I think might make a difference is that, when I don't pull with a bow, I send in the pet first, which gets it a lot of (lasting) attention and aggression, which in turns keeps the pet annoyed with, and attacking, it's aggressors, if I understand something from pet mechanics.

Haggis of Doom · Dec 05, 2010, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

The OP wanted input on creating a viable beastmastery build. If you personally don't like using and/or know how to use a beastmastery build, then I don't see why you are posting here...

Dude, no beef with you. But seriously, it's very normal we'd like better proof how a beastmaster build can outperform other, more widely accepted builds.

And no, winning streaks in RA is not proof for anything. People can get streaks with a Hamstorm build in that place.

I personally would be very happy to run an efficient beast master build, but as I've said a few posts ago, I am very skeptic about their AI in comparison with the general melee AI which sucks so bad.

Also, saying everyone else is a noob isn't helping matters any. There is no inherent proof of anything, yet. We all have different standards of what is efficient, and if a beastmaster build is what's the most efficient for you, it doesn't mean it's the best (no offense). I've thought Discordway was the best, once, and have no shame admitting it. It's openness of mind (and the constant @#??% target calling) that brought me to abandon it, so let's keep this discussion productive. You say this theoretical bow/pet build isn't subpar, but to which kind of builds are you comparing? What is your experience playing them? And what kind of teams are in the picture?

RedDog91 · Dec 05, 2010, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Something I think might make a difference is that, when I don't pull with a bow, I send in the pet first, which gets it a lot of (lasting) attention and aggression, which in turns keeps the pet annoyed with, and attacking, it's aggressors, if I understand something from pet mechanics.

This is one of the reasons that I cannot stress enough that you must have the pet's control interface open at all times. Hit Attack to make it run in and then Heel to make it run back. It instantly stops attacking and runs back (provided its not bodyblocked, which all AI and even players are victims of from time to time)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Dude, no beef with you. But seriously, it's very normal we'd like better proof how a beastmaster build can outperform other, more widely accepted builds.

Quite a few pet builds used here can be used in almost any PvE scenario and also used in PvP
Or I can film a special video at request using any weapon combination with a pet that you choose if you like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Also, saying everyone else is a noob isn't helping matters any.

I never called anyone a noob.
I have stated that a few people may be less knowledgeable in this area of the game, but never more.

I understand the queries about the effectiveness of beastmastery. I attribute most of them to the fact that because so many people question it, few actually test it.
And in honesty I have to say this thread has done a good job of reviving beastmastery in some parts of the game. Over the past 3 or 4 days I've seen a beastmaster here or there in PvE when I'm pugging (this is opposed to never seeing another beastmaster in a pug in the past 3 years). I've also seen a vast increase in beastmasters in RA and even saw a team in HA running 5 BMs, a warder, and 2 healers. Unsure of how they did overall, but I know they beat my brother's organized spike team.

Amy Awien · Dec 05, 2010, 06:42 PM // 18:42

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Originally Posted by Fay Vert

And that is another irritating thing about them, they start off closed!

I agree with that, and the other comments on the interface.

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And please, stop with the "you don't know how to use them" rhetoric.

He's not saying you are stupid, just that you don't use them well.

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I know so much more than you ever will,

Well, now you do what you blame him for.

Assuming you know all about pet mechanics and controls, you can either work with them or just complain about how much you feel they suck.

In PvE pets can be a great tool for primary Rangers once you get to know how to use them - and if it fits your playstyle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

... we'd like better proof how a beastmaster build can outperform other, more widely accepted builds.

Such as? Half of the two PvE meta builds for ranger primaries use a pet. What more proof do you want.

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... I am very skeptic about their AI in comparison with the general melee AI which sucks so bad.

It's pretty much the same, all melee-AI gets stuck easily, and none of them know how to body-block properly.

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Also, saying everyone else is a noob isn't helping matters any.

Not noob anything, just having to learn how to handle them. And some playstyles and tactics just won't work with pets.

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... You say this theoretical bow/pet build isn't subpar, but to which kind of builds are you comparing?

Bow builds perhaps. You can run a turret, which can be very effective. Most other bow builds, leaning towards the general (pvp-)template (elite, d-shot, s-shot, prep, stance, utility, rez) will likely improve when they drop the utility, rez and stance for a pet and NRA. Then you have a choice of Marksmanship and Beastmastery elites and a slot for a PvE skill or other utility.

Xiaquin · Dec 05, 2010, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

For heroes I think it depends on the mode the're set to, henchmen always behave like they're set aggressive. On guard mode they will not engage an enemy unless either I do (or call targets) or someone in the team is under attack.

I had my heroes in Guard, both melee, ranged and casting, and they weren't waiting for me. Maybe more testing is needed, but I ran several encounters and didn't see a difference between heroes and henchmen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

To be honest, I don't see that happening in practice and that may well be due to a difference in how we deploy our pets.

In my testing, the pet, in Guard, will disengage if it's not under attack and it loses a target. It will stay engaged, be it through your attack or your Attack-lock command, but if you don't give either input, and it's not in danger, this is when I've observed it to disengage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I wouldn't mind having that option, though it shouldn't become the autonomous machine Brett mentiones, with all the unremovable, long range pet-buffs.

I suppose if that's the argument, that it could become a drone, but as far as PvE is concerned, we are about to get access to a full party of fully customizable drones. As such, I find that's a weak argument for balance, unless the goal is to keep things "interesting" for the player.

As for pet AI in general, I just want to comment that having to manually re-lock targets for your pet is busy work in PvE. In PvP there's no question how useful that is, but the large battles of PvE, with enemies dropping quickly, it can be frustrating for people who aren't used to it. Calling it "player error" is missing the argument that those of us used to PvE environments have been used to AI party members not needing a babysitter, figuratively speaking.

And please, let's tone down the hostility.

Haggis of Doom · Dec 05, 2010, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Such as? Half of the two PvE meta builds for ranger primaries use a pet. What more proof do you want.

Discordway is meta too...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It's pretty much the same, all melee-AI gets stuck easily, and none of them know how to body-block properly.

This is why I'm not sure just how effective a beast master bar can be.

Of course, bringing a pet isn't like bringing a melee henchie/hero (which takes a party slot while the pet does not), but are those attribute/skill slots better suited otherwise? What would you drop AoHM and AScan for? Would you drop WS for EL?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Bow builds perhaps. You can run a turret, which can be very effective. Most other bow builds, leaning towards the general (pvp-)template (elite, d-shot, s-shot, prep, stance, utility, rez) will likely improve when they drop the utility, rez and stance for a pet and NRA. Then you have a choice of Marksmanship and Beastmastery elites and a slot for a PvE skill or other utility.

I run a turret build on my ranger (the Prepshot NRA variant), and find the damage pretty underwhelming when compared to, say, a R/D scythe (but let's not open the melee vs ranged damage can of worms here, it's true melee has more counters). Though I'm not entirely sure what you actually mean here: are you saying that a NRA turret is better than a turret without a pet? Or do you replace some turret skills with BM ones?

Amy Awien · Dec 05, 2010, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I had my heroes in Guard, both melee, ranged and casting, and they weren't waiting for me.

Assuming you had henchman too? They are in 'aggressive' mode and may well be responsible for initiating hostilities. Even Alesia begins to wand if there's red dots nearby.

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In my testing, the pet, in Guard, will disengage if it's not under attack and it loses a target. It will stay engaged, be it through your attack or your Attack-lock command, but if you don't give either input, and it's not in danger, this is when I've observed it to disengage.

That's a lot of if's:

(1) If it's not under attack
AND
(2) if it's not set to attack a target
AND
(3) if you are not attacking
AND
(4) if you are not under (melee) attack.

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.. we are about to get access to a full party of fully customizable drones. As such, I find that's a weak argument for balance,

Pets have unstripable bufs that can be reapplied as long as they're in compass range. But yeah, with 7 heroes, I see your point. ... I wonder if they get each their own flags and controls.

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...having to manually re-lock targets for your pet is busy work in PvE.

You make it sound like you have to set it's target with every foe, while in reality it automagically attacks whatever you attacks and you 'have' to attack (or ctrl-attack) anyway to direct the H&H.

I am sorry, I just don't see it happening enough to call it problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Discordway is meta too...

Yes? So? You wanted some kind proof that a pet can work. If you feel that 'the meta' means nothing, just say so.

Pets suck or bows suck is as much an opinion as melee is king, or any other claim. Whatever works for you is proof for you and what works for me is proof for me.

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This is why I'm not sure just how effective a beast master bar can be.

Getting stuck is not a problem usually, it is not random, you learn to predict what situations may confuse it and how to fix it.

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but are those attribute/skill slots better suited otherwise? What would you drop AoHM and AScan for? Would you drop WS for EL?

Why would you drop AoHM, or AScan? Or WS for EL?

Comfort Animal + Never Rampage Alone, a permanent 25% IAS. versus Dwarven Stability with Lightning reflexes, 33% IAS but for only 2/3 of the time, but with blocking. Both combinations use two skill slots, one of which is a PvE skill.

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... are you saying that a NRA turret is better than a turret without a pet?

No, other bow builds, that is, non-turret builds.

Haggis of Doom · Dec 05, 2010, 10:28 PM // 22:28

I also happen to think NRA + pet > DS + LR, which is why I use this combo on my turret build. But, a [insert weapons choice here] ranger with a pet and NRA is hardly a beast master though... Or maybe we just had very different definitions of a beast master.

And I'm still not sure what "other bow builds" you're talking about. Taking a PvP template and converting it to PvE pretty much means getting rid of just about every single skill on it, which is hardly specific as to what build it is.

Xiaquin · Dec 05, 2010, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Assuming you had henchman too? They are in 'aggressive' mode and may well be responsible for initiating hostilities. Even Alesia begins to wand if there's red dots nearby.

I did have henchmen, so I re-tested with melee, ranged and casting heroes. I don't know what else to say, once there was aggro, I did nothing, my heroes engage while in guard before they sustain anything. The first enemy skill activating was shut down by a hero's interrupt in the clearest case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

That's a lot of if's:

(1) If it's not under attack
AND
(2) if it's not set to attack a target
AND
(3) if you are not attacking
AND
(4) if you are not under (melee) attack.

It's actually surprisingly easy to satisfy these conditions. With minions, spirits and melee support, pets can quite often avoid direct harm in confrontation. I personally don't set attack lock. I often activate preparations, asura summon or change position and I'm seldom targeted by melee attack, as few rangers would be (again, assuming PvE).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

You make it sound like you have to set it's target with every foe, while in reality it automagically attacks whatever you attacks and you 'have' to attack (or ctrl-attack) anyway to direct the H&H.

Well, no, I don't have to set it against every foe, but there are times when it disengages, is all I'm saying. It's really more irritating when combined with the pet's general sluggishness. Call of Haste makes up for a lot, but overall it's just a nuisance and I'm hopeful it could be a part of any update to pets (though at this point even a skill update is wishful thinking).

Amy Awien · Dec 05, 2010, 11:29 PM // 23:29

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Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

... Or maybe we just had very different definitions of a beast master.

Probably, I've rarely used a beastmaster without any other weapon and I don't consider that

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And I'm still not sure what "other bow builds" you're talking about.

Typically something with d-shot, s-shot, a prep and an elite. There's room for a pet in there, I am sure of it. But anything that can take advantage of an IAS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

... my heroes engage while in guard before they sustain anything. The first enemy skill activating was shut down by a hero's interrupt in the clearest case.

That is in reaction to a hostile action, even if the reaction completes faster then the action. When I am attacked in melee, my pet will react similarly, and sometimes hit even before I take damage.

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It's actually surprisingly easy to satisfy these conditions.

It is also easy to prevent them. If you sent in your pet early, it will get hostile attention, and likely for long enough to make it attack even when you temporarily stop attacking. That also has the advantage that total damage to your party is reduced.

Haggis of Doom · Dec 05, 2010, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Probably, I've rarely used a beastmaster without any other weapon and I don't consider that

You're doing this on purpose!

I meant builds with only Comfort Animal and NRA in them only to take advantage of NRA for the player's benefit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Typically something with d-shot, s-shot, a prep and an elite. There's room for a pet in there, I am sure of it. But anything that can take advantage of an IAS.

Yes, we know about the IAS. But a ranger with only the pet out and NRA isn't automatically a beast master.

A caster with a spear set isn't a spear chucker. A warrior with a longbow for pulling isn't a melee/ranged hybrid. An Orders necro with Blood Bond isn't a healer. A B/P isn't a beast master either.

The pet is there for being meaty and for giving you an IAS in those builds. Yes the pet is there, but it is not the main focus of the build.

We're here to discuss the real beast master builds, not these fake ones.

Also, does "dshot sshot prep and elite" really define a specific build? But whatever, let's drop this for now, it's leading nowhere.

Amy Awien · Dec 05, 2010, 11:57 PM // 23:57

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Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

You're doing this on purpose!

I am sorry, I didn't. :s

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But a ranger with only the pet out and NRA isn't automatically a beast master.

I understand you'd consider rangers with only NRA and Comfort Animal to not be beastmasters. I'd probably look at attribute point spending (NRA doesn't require points in beastmaster). And when spending in BM, you'd likely bring more BM skills as well.
But I don't define 'beastmaster' as a ranger with mostly BM skills and no other weapon.

Xiaquin · Dec 06, 2010, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

It is also easy to prevent them. If you sent in your pet early, it will get hostile attention, and likely for long enough to make it attack even when you temporarily stop attacking. That also has the advantage that total damage to your party is reduced.

True, and if there was an AI setting like Attack mode, you wouldn't have to manually do it. In a party of myself, I control the terms of aggro. In a party of other humans who rush ahead, I'm preparing to fight after they've started fighting. I'm just wanting a pet that can take initiative, is my reasoning. Is it game-breaking? No, but there is a want for it, I do hope we can leave it at that.

Rites · Dec 17, 2010, 06:53 AM // 06:53

ummm.... ok my 2 pennies worth

do any of you own a dog? would you prefer a dog that jumps from one person or another?

i "believe" that the reason for the "trigger" mechanism in pet builds is similar to owning a well trained dog. it heels when you tell it to, it ONLY attacks what you tell it to attack. if you use this logic when running a pet build, then maybe you will understand why your pet will not attack unless you specifically tell it to.

it took me a few days to understand this behavior myself, and i prefer it over the mindless jumping between mobs thing that melee heros/henchies do (although they have a "heel" button as well)

just an opinion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I'm just wanting a pet that can take initiative, is my reasoning. Is it game-breaking? No, but there is a want for it, I do hope we can leave it at that.

sounds to me like all you want is another henchman cuz i don't think you understand how a pet is to be used

BrettM · Dec 17, 2010, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I have to agree. I consider a pet to be a ranger weapon, not a bonus henchman or hero.

A warrior would suffer if he tried to split his attributes between two of his weapon choices, carrying both a sword set and an axe set, for example. Likewise, a ranger has a choice: bow, pet, or traps. Three different specialties, and the ranger suffers trying to use two or more of them at once.

Calista Blackblood · Dec 17, 2010, 04:34 PM // 16:34

I cleaned a lot of crap out of this thread. If you are going to contribute,please contribute to the discussion not directly to other posters.

PurpleFission · Dec 17, 2010, 07:08 PM // 19:08

@OP, the problem with your build is there is nothing for you to do. You just sit there and auto attack, for me, the purpose of a pet is being an extra companion, you have done this, but removed yourself from play almost completely by creating a semi capable hero.
Most of my pet builds contain synergy between my weapon attacks and the pet attacks, Normally i would run the following:
1. Optional
2. Optional
3. Optional
4. Scavengers strike
5. Brutal Strike
6. Poisonous Bite
7. Heal as One
8. Never Rampage Alone

The 3 optionals are for the current weapon type I'm using in the situation. Spear would be: Barbed Spear, Spear of fury, Merciless spear. I use this combo the most because of the ease you can spike a target below 50% hp. Spreading conditions is easy, you will never have energy problems, and Is generally the all round best to use.

Using a bow would be: Screaming shot(hunters shot), Crossfire and needling shot. I havent played around with this as much as I have with the spear but it doesn't pump the same kind of damage as the spear.

GDW: I tried using this in the spear build in place of Poisonous which is really just an optional, but the results i had were bad, since there is no programmable hotkey to target your pet, you end up clicking all around the screen to find your pet and back to your original target.

What im trying to say is, youre taking out the usefulness of a pet by creating it into a substitute instead of a companion.

Hope i helped some

Xiaquin · Dec 17, 2010, 08:40 PM // 20:40

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Originally Posted by Rites

sounds to me like all you want is another henchman cuz i don't think you understand how a pet is to be used

If someone attacks a dog owner, should the animal need permission to protect its owner? The player and the party's lives are threatened and the animal companion waits for the "go".

Furthermore, when it's not on acting on initiative, that reflects onto a ranger's contribution to the party. It can't be called a henchmen when it does not have its own skills, either, that's taking what I said to an extreme and misses the point. My suggestion was that "Guard" actually mean guard: to attack anyone the party or player attacks or anyone attacking the party, less it need to leave range to do so.