Curse

ogre_jd · Nov 18, 2010, 02:18 PM // 14:18

I'm currently using:

Expertise 6 + 1 + 2
Beast Mastery 12 + 1 (could probably go Major on this as well. Not as if I need the HP)
Marksmanship 11 + 2

Enranged Lunge (DW + big dam, Elite)
Predator's Pounce (good dam + pet heal)
Crossfire (token bow attack, unblockable most of the time since I'm usually shooting what my pet's fighting)
Savage Shot (interrupt; I only sometimes manage to use it properly, so it's what I get to replace with a capsig when needed

Otyugh's Cry (pet +armor and unblockable; what this skill has to do with a tentacled critter disguised as a garbage heap is beyond me)
Call of Haste (pet +33% move & attack; I used to use Never Rampage Alone, but I'm finding this is better because of the +move so it can keep up with everything trying to chase Dunkoro and the other squishies)
Call of Protection (that 30s of duration beyond its recharge makes it too nice...)
Comfort Animal

Seems to work well so far in Normal Mode (so far I've only used it for Nahpui Quarter, the Xaquang Skyway quests, and going from Senji's down to Maatu Keep). No idea about HM. EDIT: Oh, and it's currently a level 15 pet (finished Factions with my Warrior the other day and he happened to have a spare slot for Charm Animal, so I got the phoenix - yay for the Menagerie and kudos to my Ranger for raising him for the Hall of Monuments

.

The main difficulty is having to keep an eye on the pet's panel so you can keep the pet locked on the targets you want and so that you don't accidentally cancel the current pet attack with the next one (usually happens to me when I activate an attack and the pet has to run to the target - I now hold off on the attack skills until the pet's started auto-attacking).

Roen · Nov 18, 2010, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Seems to work well so far in Normal Mode (so far I've only used it for Nahpui Quarter, the Xaquang Skyway quests, and going from Senji's down to Maatu Keep). No idea about HM.

Used to play a similar build in NM a lot. Most HM areas it's much less effective but still serviceable. Then again, so is splinter/barrage unless I can ball up enemies myself (which I'm not very good at).

Gallimimus Guy · Nov 28, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

So far I've been running OgMT4ULfxRWub4N4mPDnh2MPAA with +2 BM and +1 expertise runes, as well as a +20e smiting staff, and it's worked very well.

Amy Awien · Nov 28, 2010, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gallimimus Guy

So far I've been running ...

I'd put SoH on hero who could also use the points in smiting for some other fun stuff. I'd also use a regular weapon, bow or melee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Expertise 6 + 1 + 2
Beast Mastery 12 + 1 (could probably go Major on this as well. Not as if I need the HP)
Marksmanship 11 + 2

Your combo yields 9/13/13 but with two major runes I could get 13/13/11 by using
Ex: 10+2+1 (at 13 for the breakpoint on 5E skills)
BM: 11+2
MM: 10+1

(I don't use the second major but that's because I sometimes go melee with a scythe)

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Otyugh's Cry ...

An old version would temporarily cause local wildlife to attack your target.

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Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Another real problem is the fact that you can't get your pet to attack anything unless you get in their poor range.

Pet attack range is slighty longer the range of a flatbow or longbow, height difference plays no role. And since your melee (the pet) goes in deep foes tend to stay far away from your team, at first.

On guard mode and when out of combat the pet will not engage before your arrow strikes, and if you're moving away before that moment he will not engage at all, very useful when pulling with the bow.

Pets are rather resilient, 80 AL, 33% damage reduction and skills like Otyugh's Cry (+24 AL) and/or Call of Protection (15-20 damage reduction) make them very hard to kill and suitable to be used to draw out the harder blows.

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The only way to get a pet halfway useful is to give up the notion of range. It's no coincidence that seni-viable pet builds use a melee weapon or short ranged spear.

With a pet and a bow too much range may be more of a problem then that we lack range, in some fights I may find myself fighting mobs without the H&H because the fight takes place beyond their range.

In PvE pets allow the use of Never Rampage Alone, giving a permanent 25% attack speed increase (plus mending) for two skill slots. And a tool that allows using alternative tactics once in a while.

Scavenger Strike, with a net yield of ~10E every ten seconds would count as a fairly decent e-management skill.

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It's heart breaking when you consider how free ANet were with the nerf bat on rangers over this (and other ranger mechanics like expertise, EoE and traps)

No argument there, even when my pet rarely dies, when it does Olias would typically badly need that extra corpse.

Xiaquin · Nov 28, 2010, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

On guard mode and when out of combat the pet will not engage before your arrow strikes, and if you're moving away before that moment he will not engage at all, very useful when pulling with the bow.

True, but (at least in my testing), you have to continue to attack in guard, or your companion will pacify, even if you are under assault. It's only when you are nearby foes that your companion attacks freely. Also, if you are close enough, the animal companion will attack on the start of your attack animation.

Amy Awien · Nov 29, 2010, 07:35 AM // 07:35

I don't find it attacking at the start of my attack, unless we are already in combat. Or when really close, which isn't usually happening when pulling. Pets are fine while pulling, which is something that hasn't been improved until after the introduction of the pet controls.

When on guard mode my companion will attack anything attacking me in melee, but not when I am under ranged attack or hit by spells. Which probably has my preference as it prevents the pet from accidentally aggroing when pulling.

Furthermore, as long as the pet is under attack it will continue to attack even when I withdraw to beyond flatbow range. In guard mode, when neither of us are under attack it will disengage when I do so. Not so strange.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the controls, it would have been nice to have 'attack' as a mode rather then a command, but that might open unwanted opportunities for abuse.

Their only real AI problems are the delay before striking and the poor pathing (which they share with mobs and which can be worked around with the controls).

Btw, I found that Pets do 'leave' a corpse when their master dies.

Xiaquin · Nov 29, 2010, 06:50 PM // 18:50

For it to attack as you begin your animation, you roughly need to be around shortbow range, so yes, absolutely when pulling you are right.

I do wish for ranged attacks to spur the companion into action. Taking damage in a pull seems to indicate a mistake, but you can always Heel to complete the pull safely should the worst happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

In guard mode, when neither of us are under attack it will disengage when I do so. Not so strange.

It makes sense, but I've become frustrated at times when I reapply preparations, activate lengthy skills or change positions. The battle is still going, regardless of my activity, and it wastes time returning to me.

Amy Awien · Nov 30, 2010, 07:48 AM // 07:48

I can imagine that is frustating, and something in need of a change. Pets do seem to need a better adaptation to spell (and prep) use of their masters.

ogre_jd · Nov 30, 2010, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Eh. The only fix pets need is to not return to their master after each kill, but instead to seek out the enemy nearest to it within its master's aggro bubble and only attack anything outside that bubble if it is directed to or it currently has no target and either it or its master is being attacked from outside the aggro bubble.

RedDog91 · Dec 04, 2010, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Many of the "problems" I'm hearing are all player error.
Would it be more convenient for the pets to control themselves? Sure, but they aren't meant to do so. They are meant to be companions trained by the ranger to fight on the ranger's behalf. If you stop fighting, then the pet goes "oh, we must be out of danger!" (or at least thats how I see it).

A good solid day or 2 of practicing the control of different pet mechanics (and player mechanics) should improve any issues you have with the pet. Beastmastery is one of the very few things in GW that can't just be picked up and used successfully. Theres plenty of pro Rangers who can't effectively use pets simply because its a mechanic that takes much more work to understand than pretty much anything else in the game.
For those of you who have an issue with the pet breaking away from targets while you are using a preparation and/or long cast time skill, pets will stay on target if you hit Spacebar once while skill is loading...more effective halfway through skill use or towards end, depending on the cast time. Also, you can occasionally get pets to attack a new target with this method (luck of the draw...sometimes works, sometimes doesn't)
Probably the best advice anyone can give is to always, and I mean ALWAYS, have your pet control interface open. Never leave your pet's controls to chance. Monitor it at all times.

russiansteven · Dec 04, 2010, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I used to be a player who used to think Barrage and burning shot were the only two elite skills that made rangers decent. After my friend told me and showed me a beast mastery bar, I automatically got hooked. It was such a tedious job just to use barrage for those one or two moments that enemies ball up. Rangers looked useless to me. After messing around with Beast Mastery, I purposely deleted all my marksmanship builds and all the other builds and started creating Beast Mastery builds for dungeons, HM missions, vanquishes, everything. It's so much fun playing with Beast Mastery! I do not however use HaO but I use Enraged Lunge or Strike As One. However, after looking at RedDog's build, I might just use HaO. Beast Mastery is amazing

EDIT

Here's an example of two bars I run at times.
OgASY5LT7GyS8G2k5G4G8g0G
OgMU8GLfTcS8W7Gxk7i5G8g0GyEA

And for those who think Barrage is "godly"
OggkYxXY2Ji0iBGzuRuRM5uIPItB

Xiaquin · Dec 04, 2010, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

Many of the "problems" I'm hearing are all player error.
Would it be more convenient for the pets to control themselves? Sure, but they aren't meant to do so. They are meant to be companions trained by the ranger to fight on the ranger's behalf. If you stop fighting, then the pet goes "oh, we must be out of danger!" (or at least thats how I see it).

Imagine if heroes and henchmen did this. For the pet to disengage at any time while the battle is still going (and is still within attack range) just doesn't seem right when there's a heel command. You should almost never want them *not* attacking.

Amy Awien · Dec 04, 2010, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Imagine if heroes and henchmen did this.

They do actually. When I use pet and a long range bow with a little height advantage the H&H sometimes don't even get involved, until I move closer.

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Originally Posted by russiansteven

OgMU8GLfTcS8W7Gxk7i5G8g0GyEA

Wilderness survival? Why?

For pet only beastmaster Call of Haste is probably better then Never Rampage Alone. The 3 pips of heath regen isn't worth the energy, lack of pet-IMS and loss of a PvE skill slot.

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OggkYxXY2Ji0iBGzuRuRM5uIPItB

Splinter weapon is better on a Rit (hero).

BrettM · Dec 05, 2010, 12:19 AM // 00:19

I have noticed melee heroes set on guard will start to run back toward you once their target is down and if they aren't taking damage from anything else. Then they have to turn around and go back, just like a pet. They don't seem quite as bad as pets, but I think the same mechanic is there.

I suspect that pets are very, very low-priority targets for enemy AI. I've noticed that mine doesn't seem to take much damage unless caught in AoE, and the pet is often the last one standing -- at full health -- if there's a wipe. I don't think this is because they are so incredibly tough, but because they aren't being targeted unless there's nothing else to target. Which means they have less reason to stay in the battle than melee heroes that are being targeted by other foes after their current target goes down.

I honestly don't think pets are behaving much, if any, differently from heroes-on-guard. And I think it is preferable to the pet being some kind of autonomous death-dealing machine. Do we really want them acting like minions, running off in all directions and aggroing the wrong thing? Like a hero set on fight or a melee henchie with an aggro bubble twice the size of a Kournan Spotter?

Edit: I fully agree with Amy's comments regarding Call of Haste. I much prefer to use that myself, because the pet will close faster with the foes and will be able to chase kiting foes, particularly in HM.

RedDog91 · Dec 05, 2010, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Imagine if heroes and henchmen did this. For the pet to disengage at any time while the battle is still going (and is still within attack range) just doesn't seem right when there's a heel command. You should almost never want them *not* attacking.

So long as you are within the aggro bubble, the pet will stay on the target even if you stop attacking. However, if you move after 2 or 3 seconds of not attacking, the pet will disengage. To fix this, use the attack lock to keep the pet on target. It will stay on the target so long as you are within 1 and a half aggro bubbles.
The reason why is disengages in guard mode is because if you are walking away, the AI recognizes it as "we are no longer guarding, we are running away!"
And as Amy said, heros do sometimes break their attacks if you are no longer fighting for the same reason.

Like I said, its player error, not faulty AI. Players just have a tendency to never accept the blame.

Haggis of Doom · Dec 05, 2010, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

Like I said, its player error, not faulty AI. Players just have a tendency to never accept the blame.

Melee AI is broken. Pet AI isn't better than melee AI. How is pet AI not broken?

RedDog91 · Dec 05, 2010, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Melee AI is broken. Pet AI isn't better than melee AI. How is pet AI not broken?

Read the whole post and not just the last 2 sentences.
There's no excuse for the pet breaking off target when its so easy to control. All you press is 1 button.

Haggis of Doom · Dec 05, 2010, 05:40 AM // 05:40

I've read all the posts in this thread and the other thread, and I still would like my question answered please

Xiaquin · Dec 05, 2010, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

They do actually. When I use pet and a long range bow with a little height advantage the H&H sometimes don't even get involved, until I move closer.

Yes, with a long distance, they will be out of range and not attack, but once enemies do come into range, they need no action from you to begin attacking, they don't even need to take damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

The reason why is disengages in guard mode is because if you are walking away, the AI recognizes it as "we are no longer guarding, we are running away!"
And as Amy said, heros do sometimes break their attacks if you are no longer fighting for the same reason.

The problem is the pet disengages even when you are still in attack range, meaning it's depending on your constant activity to continue. If you are changing positions or activating long skills, it still sees that as a condition for retreat.

It's possible in some cases that h/h break off, but if it is, it's inconsistent. I just ran around an explorable and didn't have to press a single button. My party engaged without any action and without being attacked, until everything was dead. My pet was happy enough to watch with me, it did nothing, even as I took damage and stood well inside shortbow range of an enemy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

There's no excuse for the pet breaking off target when its so easy to control. All you press is 1 button.

Here's what I'm getting at: I would like an Attack mode with a separate option to lock target, like heroes get. Guard won't be changed, the AI will stay engaged unless you go out of range and you can still lock targets. I don't think it's a lot to ask for.

Amy Awien · Dec 05, 2010, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

...but once enemies do come into range, they need no action from you to begin attacking...

For heroes I think it depends on the mode the're set to, henchmen always behave like they're set aggressive. On guard mode they will not engage an enemy unless either I do (or call targets) or someone in the team is under attack.

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The problem is the pet disengages ...

To be honest, I don't see that happening in practice and that may well be due to a difference in how we deploy our pets.

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...I would like an Attack mode with a separate option to lock target, like heroes get.

I wouldn't mind having that option, though it shouldn't become the autonomous machine Brett mentiones, with all the unremovable, long range pet-buffs.