Curse

Alay · Apr 01, 2011, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Trying something a little different for PvE--Basically just a ranger spike damage build.

Marksmanship 12 + 1 + 3
Expertise 12 + 1

Template Code: OgASc5MT8aXGoSVgnSOGvlhh

Running a Hornbow with 15^50, 20/20 sundering, and maybe Marks +1/20(?) to maximize AP and damage.

Has anyone tried something like this in PvE before? What were your thoughts? How could this be improved? Will the Expert's Focus + high Expertise be enough for Energy Management? Could something be replaced or added?

**Marty Silverblade** · Apr 01, 2011, 07:03 AM // 07:03

If you want to maximise damage, using a hornbow and sundering is the wrong thing to do. Vampiric > Sundering (generally speaking, all martial weapon users should be using vampiric unless they have a good reason to be doing otherwise). Hornbows are very slow and the armor penetration gets less useful as foes get more powerful. Try a recurve bow instead. +1/20% mods don't add anything meaningful. I'd just go for a +5AL.

Ratman · Apr 01, 2011, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Your current build wil be kinda hard on energy even with expert's focus.
Basicly you have 2 options, either run Point Blank/Zojun's Shot + Sloth or Penetrating/Sundering Shot + Sloth.

Both have some advantages and some disadvantages.

PBS/ZS doesn't use marksmanship so only Sloth's Hunter Shot will have full potential when using Expert's Dexterity. Also these skills have halve the normal range so you need to run closer before you can start attacking. The advantage yo have with these skills is that the unconditional damage is pretty high (+38 with 14 expertise) and the recharge is relatively short. Also because you put more points in expertise you'll be able to keep up Expert's Dexterity slightly longer.

When using the combination I suggest putting more points in Expertise (14-16) and running Read the Wind instead of Expert's Focus. Also you'll find that a recurve bow might be a bit more powerfull because of the higher attack speed. And last but not least, try running a vampiric bow. You'll see that the +5 life stealing is stronger than 20/20 AP.

On the other hand when running PA/SA +Sloth you will be able to take full advantage of Expert's Dexterity. But the high energy cost of these skills could become a problem when fighting longer lasting battles. You already tried to counter this with Expert's Focus and I quess it will make you last quite some time. The biggest problem when using this combination is that the unconditional damage is lower and the recharge slightly higher.

And again when using this combination I think a vampiric recurve bow will be more powerfull.

So at least take away 2 of the bow skills either PBS/ZS or PA/SA and you might want to think about replacing Asuran Scan (the skill has been changed) and replace them for one of these skills:
"I Am The Strongest!" (PvE)
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor (PvE)
"Dodge This!" (PvE)
"Find Their Weakness!" (Paragon, make command 8-9)
"Go for the Eyes!" (Paragon, make command 8-9)
Distracting Shot
Savage Shot

Olle · Apr 01, 2011, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratman

Your current build wil be kinda hard on energy even with expert's focus.
Basicly you have 2 options, either run Point Blank/Zojun's Shot + Sloth or Penetrating/Sundering Shot + Sloth.

Both have some advantages and some disadvantages.

PBS/ZS doesn't use marksmanship so only Sloth's Hunter Shot will have full potential when using Expert's Dexterity. Also these skills have halve the normal range so you need to run closer before you can start attacking. The advantage yo have with these skills is that the unconditional damage is pretty high (+38 with 14 expertise) and the recharge is relatively short. Also because you put more points in expertise you'll be able to keep up Expert's Dexterity slightly longer.

When using the combination I suggest putting more points in Expertise (14-16) and running Read the Wind instead of Expert's Focus. Also you'll find that a recurve bow might be a bit more powerfull because of the higher attack speed. And last but not least, try running a vampiric bow. You'll see that the +5 life stealing is stronger than 20/20 AP.

On the other hand when running PA/SA +Sloth you will be able to take full advantage of Expert's Dexterity. But the high energy cost of these skills could become a problem when fighting longer lasting battles. You already tried to counter this with Expert's Focus and I quess it will make you last quite some time. The biggest problem when using this combination is that the unconditional damage is lower and the recharge slightly higher.

And again when using this combination I think a vampiric recurve bow will be more powerfull.

So at least take away 2 of the bow skills either PBS/ZS or PA/SA and you might want to think about replacing Asuran Scan (the skill has been changed) and replace them for one of these skills:
"I Am The Strongest!" (PvE)
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor (PvE)
"Dodge This!" (PvE)
"Find Their Weakness!" (Paragon, make command 8-9)
"Go for the Eyes!" (Paragon, make command 8-9)
Distracting Shot
Savage Shot

Sure, the skill has been changed, but its still good now, thats why you see it in new builds (have you read the part that you cannot miss your targets?)
ranger gets blind...and blurred...simple hex, and your in again.

Ratman · Apr 01, 2011, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by kajusbonus

Sure, the skill has been changed, but its still good now, thats why you see it in new builds (have you read the part that you cannot miss your targets?)
ranger gets blind...and blurred...simple hex, and your in again.

I know and I have read the part that says you can't miss.

Thats why I said "you might want to think about replacing Asuran Scan". Its good skill, but not always usefull.

miriforst · Apr 01, 2011, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

If you want to maximise damage, using a hornbow and sundering is the wrong thing to do. Vampiric > Sundering (generally speaking, all martial weapon users should be using vampiric unless they have a good reason to be doing otherwise). Hornbows are very slow and the armor penetration gets less useful as foes get more powerful. Try a recurve bow instead. +1/20% mods don't add anything meaningful. I'd just go for a +5AL.

Sundering and penetrating are quick attacks ignoring the hornbows slow attack speed but i agree on it being a sad choice. I would run read the wind and a flatbow with experts. That is basically the build i used to run.

Alay · Apr 01, 2011, 11:00 PM // 23:00

So concentrating at all on AP is pretty much useless? or is still worth it in some builds?

I'll give read the winds a try, it was on my list of considerations =]

**Marty Silverblade** · Apr 01, 2011, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Yeah, armor penetration gets less useful as the armor level of the foes increases. You cut through more armor but it ends up being less damage overall. Vampiric outdamages it against 60AL foes and the margin just gets bigger and bigger.

Vazze · Apr 02, 2011, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Your skill order (if that is indicating your execution order) is bad. If you queue the 3/4s attacks after the normal attack skills, you lose like a third of your dps. The 3/4s attacks cancel the "aftercast" of normal attacks and basically increase attack rate of zojun/pointblank by 100% (in addition to your elite). The correct order is zojun/penetrating/point blank/sundering, repeat.

AS is not a good skill here and you don't have the energy to use it anyway. If you get blocked just switch target and run sup expertise and minor marksmanship.

cataphract · Apr 02, 2011, 10:06 AM // 10:06

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Since you're not playing alone, Triple Shot will enable you to trigger Barbs and MoP. Micro Splinter Weapon on yourself and fire away. I'd personally take Burning Arrow instead of Expert's but that's just me. I like to burninate stuff.

Equip a vampiric recurve/short bow and you're good to go.

Mednes · Apr 02, 2011, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Too many attack skills. Get a condition or better: I am the strognest for more dmg.

Bandwagon · Apr 02, 2011, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mednes

Too many attack skills. Get a condition or better: I am the strognest for more dmg.

Conditions < More Damage.

IaTS is just another attack skill on a 20 second recharge.

Alay · Apr 02, 2011, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

OgESc5MT8aVgqGhewGzkieXF

Since you're not playing alone, Triple Shot will enable you to trigger Barbs and MoP. Micro Splinter Weapon on yourself and fire away. I'd personally take Burning Arrow instead of Expert's but that's just me. I like to burninate stuff.

Equip a vampiric recurve/short bow and you're good to go.

Yeah I was thinking of replacing AS with Triple Shot or even Volly (probably triple shot.)

I usually run a burning arrow build, but I really wanna do straight turret with this, so I'm shying away from conditions. I'm probably looking at a build like:
Expert's Dexterity/PB/ZS/SHS/IaTS/EBSoH/RtW/Triple Shot

With all my damage buffs up, and a vamp, I hit for around 95~ on each, which is pretty sexy.

Vazze · Apr 04, 2011, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Grats, you managed to make your build worse than it was. It is not your fault though, most of the advices that you got here were actually bad. I suggest you visit Master of Damage, he is reliable.

Alay · Apr 05, 2011, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

Grats, you managed to make your build worse than it was. It is not your fault though, most of the advices that you got here were actually bad. I suggest you visit Master of Damage, he is reliable.

That was less than constructive. Input please?

Bad Company Sin · Apr 05, 2011, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

Grats, you managed to make your build worse than it was. It is not your fault though, most of the advices that you got here were actually bad. I suggest you visit Master of Damage, he is reliable.

Lol @ this

@ OP Maybe something like this? I could see it doing some decent damage. maybe take an orders necro for even more damage?

12+1+1 marks
9+1 Expertise
9 Channeling

Sloth Hunters Shot
Prepared Shot
Savage Shot
Triple Shot
Nightmare Weapon
IATS
Rapid Fire
Ebon Battle Standard Of Honor

OggjclZsYSVg5WqGwgbMzkUg5i

Vazze · Apr 05, 2011, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alay

Input please?

Battles in pve last for 30-90s. Go to MoD and attack him for a minute or so and tell us what you got. Turret builds are one of the few type of builds that can be tested really well on MoD (pure dps). Certain things are not going to come out as bad for you until you see for yourself.

For example Bad Company above suggested a ~50dps build. With the right setup, 6 skills out of 8 in your original build can do 75dps.

Haggis of Doom · Apr 05, 2011, 03:51 PM // 15:51

What's wrong with the old pve turret builds?

1.
Penetrating Attack
Sundering Attack
Prepared Shot [E]
Needling Shot
Expert Focus
EBSoH
Comfort Animal
Never Rampage Alone (or bypass IAS + pet altogether and bring whatever)

2.
Point Blank Shot
Zojun's Shot
Glass Arrows [E]
Optional
Optional
EBSoH
Comfort Animal
Never Rampage Alone

Unless you're trying to innovate?

Urcscumug · Apr 06, 2011, 10:53 AM // 10:53

What Vazze meant is that you need to test those builds, and the Isle of the Nameless puppets are there exactly for this reason. You want high DPS over a long period of time (minutes, not seconds).

I've done some tests over the past few days.

Straight Ranger bow-only skill builds will not go over 20-30 DPS. A classic build like Haggis of Doom suggested (Expert Focus, Prepared Shot, Sundering/Penetrating attack and Power Shot) will be self-sustaining in energy and give you 30 DPS and short term spikes of 100 DPS (over 10 seconds or so). It can be useful in special circumstances (you can kill Knorr in Mano-a-Norno in 10s) but generally speaking 30 DPS sustained is nothing to write home about. Even eles can manage double that easily.

(BTW, I prefer Sundering/Penetrating because they are the best combination of full-range, decent cost, decent recharge, decent DPS. If I'm missing any bow attack, other than Power Shot, with better stats, please tell me.)

Furthermore, this kind of build does not work on heroes because, while they maintain Expert Focus, they do not "understand" the need to fire Prepared Shot often to regain energy. They will fire it randomly or even tend to prefer other attacks if available, so they will starve themselves of energy. Even with a Zealous bowstring and Expertise at 13. The only solution for heroes is to limit the number of attacks to 2 in addition to PS, but then you have lower overall DPS and dead-time during recharges. All in all, expect at most ~20 DPS out of heroes at most.

BTW, multi-target gimmicks do not work either, on heroes. They refuse to fire Barrage (they fire it but very seldom) and Splinter Weapon is not covered by Expertise so they waste all their energy on it. Volley does crap damage. I have no way of measuring the total multi-target damage done with these gimmicks. It's likely better than 30 DPS. It managed to kill (or bring to very low HP) Master of Damage's buddy-puppets as well along with him; but don't expect miracles (and remember that MoD has 60 armor).

Speaking of which, energy return from multi-target hits (with Zealous, ofc) is severely limited by the cost and recharge of the gimmicks needed to multi-hit (not to mention having 3+ or 4+ targets balled up to work with).

Bottom line, if you don't have access to damage buffs your DPS will be crap on a ranger with a bow. Even with buffs, the best you can hope for is spikes, because of the recharge times. And only on humans; if you want it on a hero you have to set it on "do not attack" and turn it "aggressive" and lock its target to get a (one) spike out of it.

So the only use for a Ranger hero with a bow is interrupter or condition spreader. I've tested condition spreading as well, on heroes. They can be used to inflict poison, bleeding and crippled, but they refuse to use Epidemic and Fragility properly so they need a mesmer to help with that. I haven't tested interrupt attacks yet, but the basic idea is the same as above: Expertise 13, Zealous string (optional) and Expert Focus if you can spare the preparation slot, then let them spam 2-3 different interrupting attacks. But they will still suck when compared to a mesmer.

Ranger with a bow = mediocre whatever you try with it. They can do many things but won't excel at anything. They need more active energy management options and/or more powerful attacks and/or a buff like the old Asura Scan to be any good at DPS.

I'm not saying it as a bad thing. A Jack of all trades can be useful to have around. In a bind, a Ranger can replace 2-3 other positions in the team, or make a working build for almost any purpose, and that's nothing to sneeze at. Just don't expect to outshine any other profession at anything when compared straight 1-on-1.

PS: My build testing is ongoing and far from complete. For example, I have yet to test Marksman's Wager as energy management, and I'd also like to test a "machine-gun" build, that focuses on simple bow attacks fired very fast, by using a shortbow, an IAS and any other gimmicks I can come up with to improve the rate of fire. I also haven't mixed ranger extensively with other secondaries. I'd love to be surprised... but I don't expect it.

Belzebu · Apr 06, 2011, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urcscumug

I also haven't mixed ranger extensively with other secondaries. I'd love to be surprised... but I don't expect it.

My R/P spear pet have an average of 80 DPS and spikes of 140 and I'm not using vamp spear and my pet isn't dire, so it can be higher, besides the damage you get a higher defense due the shield + beastmaster insignia and nearly constant IAS and regen due NRA and I personally use HoA for the healing and the armor ignoring bonus damage, and over all that you usually is in a safe place because of the spear range.

About bow builds, on average splinter on a hero + barrage seems to be the most efficient on PvE but it bores fast.

As others suggested IATS and EBSoH are almost mandatory to rise your damage, the nice thing about IATS is that it isn't time limited so you can cast before the battle, wait the energy regen then pull the mob then cast EBSoH.