Curse

Therios · Apr 16, 2011, 01:34 PM // 13:34

First of all, I'm relatively new to GW. Been playing WoW for couple of years and got bored of elitism and demands so I decided to move on. Came to GW, spend hours reading Wiki, trying out all professions, even made almost all of them, been trying tons of combos between builds... And one thing strikes me as a bit odd - ranger damage.

I noticed people love to describe rangers as 'jack of all trades, master of none', and considering how some skills end up with lower energy cost it might as well be true. Then again, such thing can be said for _any_ profession with good energy managment (*coughnecrocough* - gonna try n/ele soon, sounds interesting, especially when things die and fuel his endless energy). Now, to put whole jack of all trades thing aside...

In combat, whole thing sums up to either kill fast, outlive, or disable enemies until they die. There are many ways of achieving such goal - control, direct damage, hexes, heals etc. But for group to perform optimally, group members have to work well, with synergy. So, what's optimal for a ranger?

Allow me to put it this way. With my warrior I end up doing 50-100 damage from auto attacks. With ranger I end up doing 20-50 with skills (talking about higher armored targets). So, damage isn't ranger's thing.
Debuffs, conditions. With warrior I can use deep wound, bleeds etc, which is both a spike and condition that gimps target after spike is done (health degen + heal debuff). Eles get burning, sins get bleeds, poisons. Rangers? Yeah, they can bleed/poison/burn as well, but while they do they lose direct damage. Ele will burn you and continue nuking. Ranger again feels subpar.
Interrupts - mesmer beats ranger hands down.
Control... Yeah, cripshot.

I've seen youtube videos of rangers doing 100+ damage on 80-100 target dummies, but they had pre-nerf AScan, which maks me believe other skills worked differently back then as well. So, is there any way to make rangers shine, any way to actually be the guy that snipes and not the guy that tickles? (and no, please don't mention Sniper Support, I could do the same with healing monk and claim he's a killer - I'm talking about profession skills, not PvE ones) Or is there anything that actually makes ranger worth playing (aside from satisfaction of simply being a ranger), something that would make anyone pick ranger player for group instead of some other profession?

As I said, I played GW only for a couple of months, there probably are skills and builds I'm unfamiliar with, but from what I saw so far... they just feel gimped and outperformed by others.

P.S. I've been thinking about giving beastmastery a try. How well does it work, damage/pressure-wise?

Ty for your answers

shadeblade47 · Apr 16, 2011, 02:28 PM // 14:28

its not that you're just trying the wrong builds, its that rangers arent that good. people love rangers because theyre a classic class, but im sure you may have read some of the countless threads that have complained about how ANet needs to fix the class. at this time rangers are basically a PvP class. an experienced ranger can outperform a mesmer in PvP w/ interrupts, but other than that they have few uses. theyre fun to play, but theyre at the given time a broken class sadly. i guess you could say that right now theyre the balanced class? they have great survivability w/ the right setup while still dealing average damage, but they dont really do anything special.

Quaker · Apr 16, 2011, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therios

But for group to perform optimally, group members have to work well, with synergy. So, what's optimal for a ranger?

Are you talking PvE or PvP?

For PvP, I suppose that performing "optimally" actually matters. In that case you could search PvP areas of the forums and PvX for Ranger builds. Rangers in PvP would probably lean toward interrupts and conditions (I dunno, I don't do GW PvP

)

For PvE, the term "optimal" is really a non-starter. In PvE there is no need for optimal builds/damage/etc. You can play a Ranger (quite effectively) just for the sake of playing a Ranger, without being concerned about what other class might do more damage. Recently, for grins, I've been doing ZM/ZB/ZVs with a 7-hero B/P group - or more accurately a Volley/Interrupt/Pet group (3 Ra/Mo, 1 Ra/Rt, 1 Mo/nothing, 1 Mo/Rit, 1 MM, 1 SoS) - which seems to work just fine.

miriforst · Apr 16, 2011, 02:58 PM // 14:58

pve - Not really rangers thing so you better play heroway or with close friends that doesn't care about efficency. Beast masters works sorta okay but is nerving thanks to the sluggish pet pathing and weak controls. But they can deal huge but slow packets of damage. Bow damage is meh and single target interrupts and shutdown is a joke in pve even if the next 100 posters will claim that their beloved barrage got voted for president "x" times and that broad head arrow can cure cancer. A lot of rangers pride is hurt when you point out that they really aren't that special.

PVP - Now here is more like it, in pvp the ranger is the most resilient profession and sometimes its like you don't have to die if you don't want to.

This allows rangers to work anywhere in the battlefield using a speed boost and block in one skill (natural stride) while with a little help from mending touch keep themselves of frustrating blind and other conditions, especially while splitting. Apply poison is meant to be kept on multiple targets for support pressure and savage shot is nice for a quick recharging interrupt on less critical spells. But the rangers best friend still remains distracting shot, that skill gets Chuck Norris stamp of approval and is in my opinion only second to diversion in non elite shutdown. as for elites magebane is your friend in organized pvp to replace savage shot and for low end pvp burning arrow delivers okay pressure. I feel that rangers are becoming less and less important even in pvp for every update but they are still frequently used in high end pvp.

You say you have only played a couple of months eh?

I wish i was such a fast learner when i began guild wars :P

IronSheik · Apr 16, 2011, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Were you describing the thread the talks about this EXACT problem...?

Don't make another one

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/j...t10476030.html

PvE, run what you want, ranger is my 2nd most played class and I have 30+ setups for him.

You have EBSoH with 3 ignite/incen rangers, 1 para, orders, heal, minion (Classic ToPK setup), I blow thru PvE

Marksman's wager with high cost attack skills.
Daggers with Enraged.
EoE degen in FA for the lulz
Earthshaker stances
Etc list

Don't just run barrage like a majority of rangers do and you'll be fine.

GWfan#1 · Apr 16, 2011, 04:17 PM // 16:17

If you want to see more straight up damage from your arrows keep in mind that if your character is in a more elevated position than your target you will receive an automatic damage bonus. Also, Hornbows have a 10% armor penetration bonus.

My favorite spot to demonstrate this is probably Fort Aspenwood Kurzick side, stay up on the castle walls and fire at the softshells below

AlsoSol · Apr 16, 2011, 04:35 PM // 16:35

I would say PvP is where a ranger is more useful. When I first started in PvP I didn't even have to try to stay alive. Reapplying degen and using your interrupts correctly and you don't have many problems. Only problems I had were from eles and melee characters.

Aeronwen · Apr 16, 2011, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Rangers used to be more interesting but they were nerfed way back and other classes have been buffed and buffed

I still think its the class that takes the most intelligence to play well, (no I don't play well) and its more fun than other classes.

For pve you can take your ranger through every area with heroes now.

Since the pet skills had a bit of love its fun to play beast master in pve, give it a go.

Oh and I agree with miriforst, only 2 months wow you are a fast learner.

Therios · Apr 16, 2011, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeronwen

Oh and I agree with miriforst, only 2 months wow you are a fast learner.

Well, my gaming days go far, ever since atari, and since all games tend to follow some basic ideas it's rather easy to grasp concepts, especially if you like reading wikis.

Quote:

For PvP, I suppose that performing "optimally" actually matters. In that case you could search PvP areas of the forums and PvX for Ranger builds. Rangers in PvP would probably lean toward interrupts and conditions (I dunno, I don't do GW PvP )

Thing is, optimal means performing at 100%, and when it comes to interrupts mesmer is way closer to 100% interrupts than ranger, so ranger doesn't really feel like optimal profession even for pvp.

Quote:

For PvP, I suppose that performing "optimally" actually matters. In that case you could search PvP areas of the forums and PvX for Ranger builds. Rangers in PvP would probably lean toward interrupts and conditions (I dunno, I don't do GW PvP )

Again, with new addition (I started playing really a bit before 7 heroes were introduced) of 7 heroes, ANYTHING can work, you can play melee healing monk and get away with it, it doesn't make it optimal, or even good. What I'm interested in is how to play rangers properly, to actually make a difference and not just be a dead weight.

Quote:

Daggers with Enraged.
EoE degen in FA for the lulz
Earthshaker stances
Etc list

Allow me to respond by quoting myself:

Quote:

(and no, please don't mention Sniper Support, I could do the same with healing monk and claim he's a killer - I'm talking about profession skills

Or to fill in that sentence, I meant - ranger skills. One can always pick up secondary class or pve skills to compliment primary, but those don't make primary valid or good, it just makes them dependant. So, is ranger dependant on secondary skills and PvE skills? Is he just that bad he has to have some good non-ranger skills to perform decently? That was my actual question, sorry if I didn't make it obvious.

Chthon · Apr 16, 2011, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therios

Or is there anything that actually makes ranger worth playing (aside from satisfaction of simply being a ranger), something that would make anyone pick ranger player for group instead of some other profession?

I suppose congratulations are in order for realizing early on what many players are still unable to accept -- under the current balance, rangers are simply a weak class. I'm afraid the answer to your question is "no"; the satisfaction of simply being a ranger is pretty much the only reason to play one.

If you want to contribute to your team, usually the best option is to go R/W and become a poor man's imbagon.

Urcscumug · Apr 16, 2011, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriforst

A lot of rangers pride is hurt when you point out that they really aren't that special.

If anything's hurting, it's their heart, it's sad because of you. :P Because you've probably been playing GW for longer than Therios has, and you still don't understand the profession, and you still are under the impression that some players are "rangers". In a sense you're even right, if a player is so limited as to stick to just one profession then chances are they're also capable of misguided "pride". But good players play all the professions and try to understand all of them. Empathy for all aspects of the game is essential for mastering it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeronwen

Oh and I agree with miriforst, only 2 months wow you are a fast learner.

It's not really that amazing if you played another MMORPG before, and given the huge amount of information on the forums and the wiki. Not trying to put him down, I've been playing GW for only about 3-4 months myself so I know where he's coming from.

So, Therios, I know exactly how you feel, word for word. I have posts of my own around here describing the same. Since I'm a month or so "older" than you, here's what I've found out:

The Ranger is extremely flexible. Strictly within its own profession it can do trapping, ranged damage, AoE, condition spam, interrupts, spikes, pressure, beast master, self-protection. Combine it with a secondary and it can do melee with the best of them (A, W, P, D); running; spirit master (R/Rt); and the so-called touch ranger (aka "the vampire") is a form of melee unique to R/N. Add in PvE skills (from title tracks) and it can do straight honest DPS as well.

Yes, a primary will out-do a Ranger at any given single task. But no other profession can do all the things the Ranger can. If the price for that is low native DPS, so be it.

It's a "jack of all trades" but in the good sense (heck, that saying is a truism anyway). A ranger can act like two other professions at once, they can "compact" two (or even three) party slots into one. Play a Ranger in PvE and you'll never get bored with it (when people say they got dozens of builds for theirs, they're not kidding). And I don't play PvP but from what I read, they're well appreciated there (any profession that needs that much info just as an introductory guide can't be all that simple).

So what's the problem, really? Most of the feeling of inadequacy regarding the Ranger comes from it not having high native DPS. (Nobody was complaining back when they had the pre-nerf Asuran Scan, because everybody and their dog was just using the rangers as turrets and that made them happy.)

Why do they expect high-DPS? It probably has to do with the fact it is a physical and people tend to think "me physical, me hit hard". It's an attitude that affects the Paragon as well.

Is the Ranger really broken? Not sure. It might need a fine tune-up across the board and increased diversity of skills. Should they just add a skill (such as a stance or preparation, tied to Expertise) that increases DPS substantially? I don't think so. Using the Ranger just for turrets is a terrible waste. Besides, such a skill would have to either be PvE-only (and we got plenty of those already), or be split (and nerfed) for PvP.

It's commendable you strive for outstanding builds for PvE but the truth is, you don't need them. You're dealing with dumb robots. If you use half a brain and don't rush in blindly, PvE is easy, even high-end stuff, even hard mode. Hard mode is just some dumb buffs and very, very small AI improvements.

If, after all I've said, you still don't feel right about the ranger, and you still feel like these are just excuses for a weak profession; then pick another one. Just stay away from the Paragon.

Therios · Apr 17, 2011, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urcscumug

It's not really that amazing if you played another MMORPG before, and given the huge amount of information on the forums and the wiki. Not trying to put him down, I've been playing GW for only about 3-4 months myself so I know where he's coming from.

It's not putting down, it's the fact - pretty much all games follow same basis, and if you've been gamer for 15 years it's rather easy to find your way around.

Quote:

The Ranger is extremely flexible. Strictly within its own profession it can do trapping, ranged damage, AoE, condition spam, interrupts, spikes, pressure, beast master, self-protection. Combine it with a secondary and it can do melee with the best of them (A, W, P, D); running; spirit master (R/Rt); and the so-called touch ranger (aka "the vampire") is a form of melee unique to R/N. Add in PvE skills (from title tracks) and it can do straight honest DPS as well.

Again, allow me to quote myself:

Quote:

(and no, please don't mention Sniper Support, I could do the same with healing monk and claim he's a killer - I'm talking about profession skills

Or to fill in that sentence, I meant - ranger skills. One can always pick up secondary class or pve skills to compliment primary, but those don't make primary valid or good, it just makes them dependant. So, is ranger dependant on secondary skills and PvE skills? Is he just that bad he has to have some good non-ranger skills to perform decently? That was my actual question, sorry if I didn't make it obvious.

Every class can perform well, heck I really made melee monk that AFKed 99% of the time and cleared most of the content. It doesn't make it optimal. PvE skills and secondary skills don't justify primary lacks. And that's what puzzles me. How to play ranger well as a ranger

Quote:

The "jack of all trades" nickname is well deserved and it has great value. A ranger can act like two other professions at once, they can "compact" two (or even three) party slots into one. Play a Ranger in PvE and you'll never get bored with it (when people say they got dozens of builds for theirs, they're not kidding). And I don't play PvP but from what I read, they're well appreciated there (any profession that needs that much info just as an introductory guide can't be all that simple).

Talking about jack of all trades - I played my necro as SoS - had better energy regen than primary rit without single energy managment skill on my bars, could spam hexes and weapon enchants without worrying about energy. It doesn't make necro better rit than rit himself, it makes him different. In the other hand, I feel ranger is just a poor copy of other classes. Not different, just worse. Dervish will spam conditions, sin/derv will lack conditions but apply more crit damage. Both use scythe, but they play differently. Ranger in the other hand lacks that unique touch, something that makes him stand out and makes people think "I'll rather play ranger than X profession because he does Y job differently". Or am I missing something?

Yes, you can do 2 jobs at once, but you can't do any better. Hence my original question - is there anything that might make someone think "Hey! I'll take ranger in a group instead of warr/sin/necro/ele/rit/para/ele..."?

Quote:

Why do they expect high-DPS? It probably has to do with the fact it is a physical and people have come to think that "physical = lots of DPS". It's an attitude that affects the Paragon as well.

Because that's the point of PvE. As I said earlier, game revolves around simple idea - things die, you survive. Whether you achieve it by supporting (at which ranger fails), by tanking (at which ranger fails), by nuking (at which ranger fails), by conditioning (at which ranger is still outperformed) doesn't matter - goal is same, things die, you survive.

Quote:

It's commendable you strive for outstanding builds for PvE but the truth is, you don't need them. If you use half a brain and don't rush in blindly, PvE is easy, even high-end stuff, even hard mode. You're dealing with dumb robots and hard mode is just some dumb buffs and very, very small AI improvements.

I noticed myself I don't need outstanding build when I rolled melee monk that sits AFK in background. I can literally eat cookies and watch youtube while heroes do the job for me. But that's not the game that makes me enjoy what I'm playing, I want to feel I made a difference. And thus I made topic - is there a way for rangers to make a difference by using ranger skills - no PvE skills, no secondary professsion skills?

LifeInfusion · Apr 17, 2011, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Rangers rock when supported. They're better than melee heroes simply due to AI and d-shot (sloth hunter isn't bad damage either). THey lack Strength of honor (SoH) though and conjures screw up Orders so don't bother with that if you run Barbs, Orders, or Mark of Pain.

if you're talking about player builds it gets sketchy. Player Rangers don't get anything over Heroes really. GDW (Great Dwarf weapon) isn't something you can cast on yourself. You can argue Drunken master IAS but Ranger DPs is shoddy. Barrage isn't fun. Broadhead arrow only is useful where condition removal doesn't exist but hex removal is rampant. EbSoH is on 20 cooldown. Ignite arrows causes scatter. Poison/bleeding/cripple aren't very useful in PvE. Pet AI sucks. Traps take a whole bar to run properly unless you somehow find a way to use 20-30 recharge traps that get interrupted by wanding. Magebane doesn't shine here.

Stuff like Triple shot+nightmare weapon is done better by Rt/R; as is Splinter barrage. If you go R/W bring "Save Yourselves!".

PvE is all about rolling mobs over in the shortest time. Rangers aren't too good at that...

In PvP Rangers are great on split and don't need to be constantly healed due to block stances and interrupts. Apply Poison is godly as is cripple. If you die to eles you don't pack Clarity runes + Blind shield and/or mending touch /antidote signet (and you don't have foul feast/draw conditions on your team). Res sig? d-shot. "Wily and agile survivor" means more when your opponents don't hit for 200-300 armor ignoring, Ineptitude/Clumsiness/Empathy doesn't come in packs of 10 mesmers with 20 in their attribute.

tl;dr Summary: PvE mobs are stupid.

Kojima · Apr 17, 2011, 12:56 AM // 00:56

I can only get about 80-100 dmg with my multiple shots actually. Not the highest dmg dealer but none the less, it works well with support.

In PVP, she works way better and does not need healing support.

Bandwagon · Apr 17, 2011, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therios

.....(and no, please don't mention Sniper Support, I could do the same with healing monk and claim he's a killer - I'm talking about profession skills, not PvE ones) Or is there anything that actually makes ranger worth playing....

Since a lot of people are beating around the push with this issue I will try and answer it to the best of my ability.

The truth is, there is none. Anything a ranger can do in PvE, another profession can do better.

That is it, no need for damage tests or parses, the abilities suck, pet AI is limited to other AI, Traps and Nature Rituals are clumsy, burdensome and overall gimmicky.

PvP may be different because rangers can rupt and spread conditions @ the same time while maintaining durability and potential to split.

PvE is a different story, all you can do is hop on a secondary and use those USEFUL, PERTINENT and SYNERGISTIC skills offered by the secondary (that is where the jack of all trades thing comes from) because bow, pet and wilderness skills are garbage in a comparative sense when executed to the rules of PvE (kill quick, survive, AOE / spike the $*$&ers).

I will give you an example: Ranger could run Infuriating Heat (extra party wide adrenaline gain) but Necros (or anything that invests 5 or 6 pts into blood) can use Dark Fury and keep it up assuming they have the energy and HP, furthermore it does not take up their elite, require set up, or affect enemy mobs (rarely an issue, but it is there vs adrenaline melee mobs).

Yes Infuriating Heat is neato, but Dark Fury is more accessible with little backfire as most builds that run it are designed to maintain it. This is the ranger class in a nutshell, it has a bunch of tricks in its primary that are simply inferior to the trivial additions of other profession skills.

My advice: If this troubles you, roll a primary that can make use of their primary skills (ex: Necromancer, Ritualist, Warrior, Assassin, Dervish, Monk, Mesmer, don't bother with Elementalist).

Don't let the barrage spamming facerollers confuse you, they are not adding anything useful to the group (carried in a nutshell), and a W/ with the same team will clear the area faster because their attack speed, resources and skills are not garbage.

If you want something on your team to do two jobs at once, use heroes, they can do it better then players (Ex: I run an SoS/back up Rit hero with 6 pts in blood for Dark Fury, she keeps the Dark Fury maintained, lays the spirits down for mop up support and throws in a heal or two when the other heal hero is derping, a player doing this is wasted potential, and I assure you a ranger primary could not fill these rolls because of the R/ requirement).

People say that being a Jack of All Trades is an asset to the party, in a game like GW where you have specialized roles for your party, running suboptimal setups can only be a burden.

Therios · Apr 17, 2011, 01:05 AM // 01:05

I guess that answers all my questions. Thank you Bandwagon, I feel you summed things up for me

I do intend to continue playing ranger just for the sake of it, enjoyment of using a bow and all that, but I guess I'll just end up getting titles and all primary game objectives on some other (probably necro or sin).

Thanks ^^

Don Zardeone · Apr 17, 2011, 01:06 AM // 01:06

I didn't like the bow damage so I made a dagger/pet ranger with strength of honor coming from a hero.
Deals huge amounts of damage and deep wounds stuff. I got an epidemic somewhere on my heroes so my conditions get autospread and everything is blind by a bsurge or ineptitude so my 70 AL doesn't matter vs physicals.

jagged strike
fox fangs
death blossom
scavenger strike
enraged lunge
never rampage alone
brawling headbut (can take whatever, don't have the battle standard thing yet, don't care)
comfort animal

On heroes I somewhere have the following:
- Mo strength of honor: +21 damage. Disable it and maintain on yourself and pet
- Rt splinter weapon
- Rt spirit rift: for cracked armor
- N weaken armor: for cracked armor. I put it on a toolbox paragon (don't need multiple sources of cracked armor unless you really don't feel like waiting for recharges, like me)
- P anthem of envy: for +21 damage one time
- P anthem of flame: for +28 damage 2sec fire, or more (I don't run this but I probably should now that I think about it)
- N Minions
- weakness or blind form whatever
- I mentioned epidemic to spread conditions (mostly for cracked armor, blind, deep wound) but stuff dies so fast and the recycle on enraged lunge is ok imo so not really needed. When you have room.

Most generic 7hero builds will have them things.
Use and blow things up.

I suggest getting the free thunderfist brass knuckles so you look more like you're beating them up rather than being stabby stabby.

Stuff usually dies in 1 to 1.5 attack chains. After or before each chain I use either lunge or scavenger. Euh, hard to explain. It's sort of a rhythm or flow you'll get into.
You'll also need to be sure what you will attack before you go in for the attack as the pet may not follow you very much. But you'll get used to how your pet behaves rather quickly if you pay a little bit of attention to it.

Energy isn't a problem once you get the flow going.
I got 14 (10+1+3) beast, 9(8+1) expertise 12 dagger

K, now you deal damage. Gogo

it's probably on pvxwiki too, don't remember

edit: yes I was skeptical too at first but then I tried it for lulz and am now only using bows in PvP

Kunder · Apr 17, 2011, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I suppose congratulations are in order for realizing early on what many players are still unable to accept -- under the current balance, rangers are simply a weak class. I'm afraid the answer to your question is "no"; the satisfaction of simply being a ranger is pretty much the only reason to play one.

If you want to contribute to your team, usually the best option is to go R/W and become a poor man's imbagon.

I don't know if you can really call them a poor man's imbagon. They upkeep SY 5% worse while doing more damage. Its worth the tradeoff. They also have the best self condition removal in the game, which is worth a lot when conditions are one of the two things that break SY spammers.

Of course, this isn't much to recommend the ranger. Imbagon is a shitty boring build to play and a R/W copy of it isn't much better. Rangers can screw around with other class's stuff to make a melee ranger and/or use pets as has been posted, and its fun, but hardly amazing. Maybe when Anet gets around to making pet AI not suck balls...

Urcscumug · Apr 17, 2011, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Or any AI for that matter.

I'm dreaming of a "ultra hard mode" where the difference from normal mode was made with AI, not armor and damage buffs. The AI has instant access to all the team and enemy data and perfect reaction time. If the mobs knew how to avoid bodyblocks, coordinate spikes, flank etc. they'd change PvE massively. A group of lvl 3 devourers would hand your ass to you, nevermind Mursaat and whatnot.

...But I guess it would take too many server resources to buff AI that much?

miriforst · Apr 17, 2011, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

I don't know if you can really call them a poor man's imbagon. They upkeep SY 5% worse while doing more damage. Its worth the tradeoff. They also have the best self condition removal in the game, which is worth a lot when conditions are one of the two things that break SY spammers.

Of course, this isn't much to recommend the ranger. Imbagon is a shitty boring build to play and a R/W copy of it isn't much better. Rangers can screw around with other class's stuff to make a melee ranger and/or use pets as has been posted, and its fun, but hardly amazing. Maybe when Anet gets around to making pet AI not suck balls...

You miss out TnTF and the unlimited energy. And the ridiculous AS. And some cool support. And an offhand.

I usually run infuriating imbagon with my bro when doing heroways but a imbagon is really supreme to it.