Curse

Splinter Barrage · Oct 27, 2011, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Dryad Bow is the best when it comes to the foresty look. Its a recurve bow which means it has the fastest arrow speed with a medium attack speed. Another bow to look at is Urgoz's Longbow. Unfortunately its a green with 20/20

My two favorite bows (appearance wise, anyway). I use the Dryad in PvP with a poison string (another thing which, since this forum, I have come to respect--man, I wish there were burning strings though), and Urgoz's is the bow I carry between fights/my pulling bow.

Splinter Barrage · Nov 25, 2011, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

[. . .] short zealous used during battle the majority of time[.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BogusDude

My usual prefix is a zealous because i tend to go with builds requiring energy[.]

I have previously stated that 13-14 expertise and "a reasonable build"

makes energy management no problem unless you're in for a particularly long fight, thus your zealous bow should be relegated to a swap. I stand by that assessment; however, I have discovered a skill combo which makes zealous unnecessary even in long fights. All you need is a Necromancer secondary and a few leftover points in Curses.

The first skill is Weaken Armor. It's cheap (5e), affects groups, and increases damage significantly. E.g. against the wurms outside Boreal Station in Normal Mode, with 12 points in Fire Magic, an Elementalist's Flare does 40 without it and 56 with it. (I choose this as an example because that damage is fixed, not variable.) For a Ranger, it has a twofold benefit: if you also bring Body Shot, you can gain energy when hitting foes with Cracked Armor (the condition W.A. inflicts), and during the time they're conditioned you can fire it twice. (Yields 9e with 11 Marksmanship; costs 2 with 13 Expertise; so with most builds you can spend 2 and gain 7 twice in 8 seconds. And of course you won't have the -1 regen from zealous.) Thus it simultaneously improves damage and energy management. Body Shot even deals bonus damage in addition to reaping energy--it's win-win.

Compare Weaken Armor to Ebon Battle Standard of Honor. Both skills improve damage for everyone in your party, but with W.A. they don't have to be standing next to you. (As long your Vanguard title isn't maxed) -20 armor > the bonus from Battle (e.g. +16 dmg vs. +10 for the Ele), and in Hard Mode even casters have 80 armor, so damage could be increased by as much as 41% (according to the Wiki). Battle costs twice as much, while W.A. gives you energy with Body Shot. Battle has some downtime (albeit not much), whereas you can recast W.A. every 5 seconds; so if groups separate or monks remove the condition, it doesn't matter.--There is no contest.

By all means, put Splinter Weapon on your heroes. But do yourself a favor and go with a Necro secondary, and make liberal use of this excellent skill combo. You will do more damage--and never run out of energy again.

Wenspire · Nov 26, 2011, 04:11 AM // 04:11

I do like bringing Weaken Armor in my party (my Necro hero brings it). Regarding your "20%AP > EbonStandard", you forgot to factor in the fact that it only triggers 20% of the time (1/5 shots) so your bonus of 16 is actually more like 3-4 if you divide.

Regarding Body Shot, it is a nice skill if you need EN, but it really depends on what type of build you are running. It probably will be better with a single-target build. But if you are using Barrage (AoE build), you are probably better off running a Zealous String and using another skill in place of Body Shot (i.e. Bring Pet, PvE Skill if you haven't taken 3 already, Power Shot, Sloth Hunters, etc).

Just my $0.02...

Splinter Barrage · Nov 26, 2011, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Regarding your "20%AP > EbonStandard", you forgot to factor in the fact that it only triggers 20% of the time (1/5 shots) so your bonus of 16 is actually more like 3-4 if you divide.

We're not talking about a Sundering string here. The spell Weaken Armor inflicts the condition Cracked Armor, and that's -20 armor for the duration of the condition. (I checked my post, and I used a percent sign instead of a minus by mistake, so I can see how that might have thrown you off. My bad; I have fixed it.)

I discovered W.A. when searching for something comparable to Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, because the latter is awesome but just too expensive (and Expertise provides no benefit/heroes can't bring it). The energy gain (through Body Shot) was an incidental benefit, but I thought that dual benefit was too cool not to share. Ever since running a Necro secondary I have had zero energy problems even in prolonged Hard Mode fights. I never need zealous anymore, even as a swap: I simply alternate between a vampiric flatbow and vampiric shortbow, depending on how close targets are/if they are moving much (or if I have brought Favorable Winds).

WRT bringing another skill instead. If W.A. is on your hero, then put Body Shot where Ebon Battle would have been.

I think it's important enough to merit the slot: extra damage is no good unless it's sustainable. (My warrior has no problem using Battle, but that's because Warrior's Endurance combined with an IAS and/or AoE attacks makes it so she never has less than 100% energy. I wish I could do that with my ranger.)

BTW, the reason I said you can get by with only your leftover points in Curses is, all those points will do is increase the duration. For energy management, even with no points Weaken Armor will last long enough for you to get in the necessary shot; for a sustained partywide damage bonus (and/or a second Body Shot), with only a few points you can get it to 10+ seconds. It's definitely a skill worth bringing, IMHO.

P.S. My dislike of zealous stems from the -1 regen. That loss factored in, even with AoE attacks and a shortbow I find I barely more than break even (and of course the whole time I'm doing less damage than my potential). That said, it occurs to me that another skill you could bring to manage energy is Prepared Shot. As long as you're using a preparation, it's gold: as much damage as Penetrating Attack, and as much energy gain as Body Shot. You do, however, need to be prepared

to sacrifice your elite slot.

Now, if only they would invent a Warrior's Endurance for Rangers. . . .

Swingline · Nov 26, 2011, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splinter Barrage

P.S. Strictly talking energy management without the need for zealous, another skill you could bring is Prepared Shot. As long as you're using a preparation, it's gold: as much damage as Penetrating Attack, and as much energy gain as Body Shot. You do, however, need to be prepared

to sacrifice your elite slot.

Prepared Shot is one of my favorite ranger elites. You could load Sundering/Penetrating shot, Sloth Hunters shot and Triple shot with this elite and bring the pain. I use a Vampiric Long Bow with it for the extra damage and even in HM it still stands on its own pretty good. I always bring Never Rampage Alone and Comfort Animal so the prep is up to the person.

Splinter Barrage · Nov 26, 2011, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splinter Barrage

Now, if only they would invent a Warrior's Endurance for Rangers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Prepared Shot is one of my favorite ranger elites.

Heck, if you wanted to, you could bring Weaken Armor + Body Shot, and Prepared Shot as your elite. It would take more slots than it does for a warrior; but you could, through skills alone, keep your energy perpetually at 100%.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

[I]t really depends on what type of build you are running. It probably will be better with a single-target build. But if you are using Barrage (AoE build), you are probably better off running a Zealous String and using another skill in place of Body Shot (i.e. Bring Pet, PvE Skill if you haven't taken 3 already, Power Shot, Sloth Hunters, etc).

FYI, here's what I'm running ATM:

(Bear in mind that there are more than 10 variations of this build in my Templates folder, some with different secondaries. I call the following "R-N, Ignite (Vamp Short) w- Pet." Note "Ignite" as opposed to Barrage; there are 10+ variations of that build, too. . . .)

1. Ignite Arrows - AoE prep
2. Weaken Armor - AoE condition
3. Incendiary Arrows (e) - AoE attack + condition
4. Triple Shot - AoE attack (when combined w/ Ignite)
5. Dual Shot - Ibid.
6. Body Shot - Energy gain (since #2 is AoE, pick a target)
7. Troll Unguent - Self-heal
8. Comfort Animal - Pet heal/res

(If there's a good monk in the party, 7 can be replaced with Serpent's Quickness or Lightning Reflexes for greater spammability. I like S.Q. these days since it also makes Favorable Winds' recharge manageable when I bring that.)

As you can see, there's no lack of AoE attacks, and there's a pet, and there's a PvE-only skill (Triple Shot). Did I leave anything in your list out?

Beastmaster's Insignias, of course. (With a hearty pet set to "heel" unless used to pull. It won't do any damage, but it will effectively double your survivability.) With Sup. Vigor, one Vitae, and Fortitude on the bow, that's 500 health even though I have 2 major runes (Exp and Marks). I find 10 Wilderness is sufficient, and 12 Marks is essential of course; either 13 Exp and 7 Curses, or 14 Exp and 4 Curses, with the leftover in Beast (lol).

P.S. Another nice thing about the "running away" monsters occasionally do with this build (cf. earlier post): Ignite explosions hurt them even if your arrows miss. And since each of the above attacks triggers multiple Ignites, you're doing a ton of splash damage no matter what kind of chaos is going on.

P.P.S. There's no interrupt, but when I'm running this build I leave that to a hero (who brings, among other things, Broad Head Arrow and Epidemic). There's also no defense (other than Unguent), but that's just because this is a pure damage build. (My PvP build, on the other hand, is half defensive skills. . . .) The pet makes up for a lot though, as does standing back with a flatbow when possible.

Wenspire · Nov 26, 2011, 12:46 PM // 12:46

EbonHonor affects the splash damage off your IgniteArrow. With that build you have, I would definitely bring ESoH. I would also leave Trolls out mainly because I leave any form of healing to my Monks and focus more on damage (and at times, utility). I would probably use NeverRampageAlone for the added attack speed and the 3-pip of health regen.

But I know everyone plays their build differently and it seems to work very well for you, so it's all good. =)

Splinter Barrage · Nov 26, 2011, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

EbonHonor affects the splash damage off your IgniteArrow. [. . .] I leave any form of healing to my Monks [. . .] I would probably use NeverRampageAlone for the added attack speed and the 3-pip of health regen.

1. Indeed; but everything does more damage with Weaken Armor, too.
2. Noted in my post already.
3. Good idea! Definitely another option for that #7 slot. However, it's quite expensive. I think I still prefer the two stances mentioned. (And how could one ever afford it and Battle?) I will give it a try though, and see if I can make the build as sustainable with it.

Wenspire · Nov 26, 2011, 01:12 PM // 13:12

The effects of WeakenArmor vs. a 100AR enemy (with 12Marks, 10WS and 15^50/+20% Customized) would look something like this:

(vs. 100AR):
Bow Avg Dmg (including crit potential) = 17.1
Ignite Dmg (per packet) = 6.5

(vs. 80AR via WeakenArmor)
Bow Avg Dmg (including crit potential) = 24.1
Ignite Dmg (per packet) = 9.2

(vs 100AR with ESoH at r3)
Bow Avg Dmg (including crit potential) = 27.1
Ignite Dmg (per packet) = 16.5

If you look at it this way, ESoH still does more damage at a low rank. With r10, it would go up by another 5. Of course, the ideal thing would be to bring both WA and ESoH, of course. hehe

**EDIT** Damage correction with ESoH. Late night...

Splinter Barrage · Nov 26, 2011, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splinter Barrage

However, it's quite expensive.

Just tried Never Rampage Alone. Because it's only a "skill," Expertise kicks in, and it is thus less expensive than it appears. I've read the skill description before; I must have simply dismissed it due to the cost. My mistake! It is perfect for my purposes, thanks so much for suggesting it. Goodbye Unguent.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Of course, the ideal thing would be to bring both WA and ESoH, of course. hehe

Indeed! (If only you could have 10 skill slots.)

Also factor in the difference between zealous and vampiric (multiplied for each individual arrow in those attacks). There is always tradeoff.

It's like an engineering problem. (E.g. slick tires vs. treaded; more wing vs. less . . . which is better depends on many factors, including the track and the weather.) I wonder which does more sustainable damage over time: zealous + Battle, or vamp + W.A./B.S. And how to satisfactorily test this without just taking each other's word for it. ^_^

I look forward to attaining rank 3. Perhaps once my title is maxed, there will no longer be any contest.

Wenspire · Nov 26, 2011, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Zealous would really only be good with a Barrage or Volley build where you can hit a large number of targets at once (making the skills basically free of cost or you gain EN to help fuel other skills). For your build, I would run a Vamp string so that really isn't something that needs to be calculated.

Splinter Barrage · Nov 26, 2011, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

Zealous would really only be good with a Barrage or Volley build where you can hit a large number of targets at once (making the skills basically free of cost[.]

Well, if you have 14 Expertise, Triple Shot costs 4e. All three arrows benefit from zealous, so that's 3e back, and only dependent on one target. So I'm not sure if it's so cut-and-dry. ^_^;;

Swingline · Nov 26, 2011, 01:40 PM // 13:40

If using your typical Incendiary Arrows build you should have Triple/dual shot so a zealous string is in order there.

Splinter Barrage · Nov 26, 2011, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

If using your typical Incendiary Arrows build you should have Triple/dual shot so a zealous string is in order there.

Yes, it certainly wouldn't be a waste of zealous. But it's so nice with vampiric, too. E.g. with Triple Shot, +3 en vs. +15 dmg! . . . As long as I can get away with it without running into energy problems, I'm going to prefer vampiric. If all else fails, I can always go halvesies and swap.

Wenspire · Nov 26, 2011, 01:44 PM // 13:44

The cool-down time of TripleShot is quite long (along with the -xx% dmg per arrow). DualShot also suffers from the same problem. However, IncendiaryArrows does have a better cool down. So in between your multi-shot skills you would be spending more time using single-arrow attacks as opposed to multi-arrow attack skills. You would more than likely be hurting more from the -1EN regen then benefitting from the Zealous function.

**EDIT** Actually in doing a little more calculation, I think the -EN regen drawback would be worth it since it only equates to around 3.3EN lost in 10sec vs the 6-8EN gained from those three skills. I stand corrected in this area.

Splinter Barrage · Nov 26, 2011, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

The cool-down time of TripleShot is quite long (along with the -xx% dmg per arrow). DualShot also suffers from the same problem.

All true. However, the benefit of bringing so many AoE attacks is that the first is recharged by the time the last is fired, etc. (and bringing Serpent's Quickness helps with this too). Also, even with a non-maxed title, 3 arrows is still > 1; but the whole point of it is to multiply Ignites, which makes up for everything. On the whole, the damage is more constant than Splinter Weapon (which has to be recast frequently). Of course, as you say, ideally you can have both.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Wenspire

**EDIT** Actually in doing a little more calculation, I think the -EN regen drawback would be worth it since it only equates to around 3.3EN lost in 10sec vs the 6-8EN gained from those three skills. I stand corrected in this area.

It's totally cool. I have found this discussion stimulating. Thanks a lot for the feedback (and particularly for turning me onto that one Sunspear skill). FYI, one of my weapon sets is still, and probably always will be, a zealous one; I'm just searching for ways to maximize damage without sacrificing energy, is the only reason I brought up the whole W.A.+B.S. combo (which perhaps I was bold about promoting in terms of making zealous irrelevant). ^_^ Again, it's just one of many possible permutations of the Ignite build I've been running with lately. I'm gratified to have the feedback; since coming to this forum a couple months ago I've already learned and changed a lot of things.

The promptness of replies has really contributed to this feeling like a conversation. Do you ever use TeamSpeak? I find it comes in handier than typing in-game. Anyway, if you'd like to "hang out" in GW and/or on TS sometime, I'd be grateful for the company.

For now, have a good night, fellow ranger!

And Happy Thanksgiving weekend, everyone!

Swingline · Nov 26, 2011, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Forked Arrow is also another candidate. I don't run enchantments on my ranger's hero team and while hexes will stop it to I run enough hex removal. Forked Arrow actually became quite useful. With IA, TS, DS and FA you can keep doing a full rotation. The build I used was...

Incendiary Arrows
Triple Shot
Dual Shot
Forked Arrow
Ignite Arrows
EBSoH
Lightning Reflexes
Dwarven Stability

Malganis · Nov 26, 2011, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Another option for energy gain if you're using a pet is Scavenger Strike. Heroes use this skill well, also. I use a Rotwing Bow so my preparation is Apply Poison. Poison Tip Signet works too. One of my necro heroes will run Weaken Armor, or on my Dervish & Paragon, they run Mark of Fury for the cracked armor and adrenaline gain. Spirit Rift on your SoS Ritualist hero will cause cracked armor as well.

I also use Dual Shot and Triple Shot and negate the damage loss by using I Am The Strongest!

Cuilan · Nov 27, 2011, 02:20 AM // 02:20

You should look into getting a new bow. Poison Tip Signet and Poison Arrow are extremely useless in PvE and there's no reason why you would want to extend it.

Lightning Reflexes with Dwarven Stability is wasteful use of skill slots when you have Frenzy, Drunken Master, and Never Rampage Alone.

Then people complain about rangers being bad.

Swingline · Nov 27, 2011, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Lightning Reflexes with Dwarven Stability is wasteful use of skill slots when you have Frenzy, Drunken Master, and Never Rampage Alone.

LR + DS is 22 seconds of 33% IAS and 75% block. By the time its up everything will be dead or close to dead and it allows you to tank melee/physical ranged. Healers loved me for this

You do know that Never Rampage Alone requires Comfort Animal right? With low BM your pets damage is irrelevant and you risk being useless for a few good seconds if it should die.

Drunken Master Requires alcohol to be at maximum efficiency.

Frenzy is a huge risk if your not bringing a cancel stance. Therefore you will waste a second skill slot.