Curse

Tempesttt · May 28, 2012, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Recently I've been experimenting a lot with different builds and trying to iron out any kinks. I have about a half dozen builds I regularly use (dagger spam, dagger/pet, scythe/pet, bunny thumper, spirit spam) and they all work well. Most of them I don't change anymore because they do exactly what I want them to do and I'm totally comfortable with them.

However, when it comes to marksmanship builds using a bow, I'm underwhelmed and frustrated. In PvE, it feels like Barrage is the best elite to use. It's mediocre against a single target, but against a group the total damage output is great, and Splinter Weapon (preferably from a Rt hero with 16 channeling) only makes it better.

I've done R/Rt Splinter Barrage and R/W Savior Barrage like most people, and they work but they seem to lack that power I get from other builds.

I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to play as a marksmanship ranger and not be doomed to mediocre damage output. It seems like using a bow means I'm stuck interrupting and using defensive stances.

The best I've been able to do in terms of spiking is stacking EBSoH, IAtS, and Dodge This or Favorable Winds, and then using Sloth Hunter's Shot on a low armor enemy from a hill followed by Savage Shot. That's easily 200+ damage in under a second.

Using the same damage boosts plus Splinter Weapon from a Rt hero with 16 channeling into a pack of six enemies is the best you can do for nuking.

So, marksmanship rangers, in my experienced, is medicority punctuated by a sudden massive surge of AoE damage from Barrage, or one big spike from Sloth Hunter's Shot.

What do you guys think? Am I overlooking something?

Premium Unleaded · May 28, 2012, 10:46 PM // 22:46

THe change to asuran scan pretty much turned all the single-target bow builds from acceptable to crap.

Tempesttt · May 28, 2012, 10:47 PM // 22:47

I'm sorry, I'm a relatively new player. What change was made to Asuran Scan?

Edit: I looked on the Wiki, and wow. That's quite a change.

Fay Vert · May 28, 2012, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Rangers were good in prophesies only days, but ANet kept putting more and more power creep into the game without keeping ranger updated to match, so sadly now, in PvE, bow rangers are near useless. The didn't so much nerf rangers (well, they did, big, a few times, but they buffed the rest of the game.

Xenomortis · May 28, 2012, 11:46 PM // 23:46

You're not overlooking anything; Rangers suck in PvE. The damage capabilities of a bow are hilariously weak compared to the options presented by every other martial weapon, except the Spear, which is also bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

THe change to asuran scan pretty much turned all the single-target bow builds from acceptable to crap.

That's not fair; it stopped Marksman's Wager turning a poor bar into shite.

ruk1a · May 28, 2012, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Bottom line, just get used to ranger being mediocre damage at best. There will eventually be a buff to them, I still have fun with my ranger.. besides, heroes do 90% of the work anyways so it really doesn't matter if you're "near useless" which they are far from useless, just not as good as other classes.

ultimak719 · May 29, 2012, 01:13 AM // 01:13

If you are looking for straight damage, a ranger using a bow is the wrong place to look. That is, unless you can reliably maintain splinter on yourself by microing a hero or two while spamming barrage. An alternative that I am a fan of is using something like this http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:R/any_PvE..._Arrows_Ranger That pumps out single and multiple target damage without having to rely on splinter weapon.

Rangers using bows do have the advantage of being able to easily apply conditions, which is generally not too useful in pve. However, if you want to experiment with it. Broad head arrow, apply poison and epidemic can be quite exciting when placed in the middle of a mob.

Overall, as mentioned before, sustainable single and aoe damage from a bow ranger is rather implausible. The bars I have mentioned are in actuality sub-par to using a splinter barrage, but in the end, your heroes will be doing most of the work anyway, so run what you want and have fun with it.

Premium Unleaded · May 29, 2012, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Spears are better at conditions than bows. Access to deep wound alone makes it superior.

Relyk · May 29, 2012, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Except spears suck just as much

Voodoo Rage · May 29, 2012, 03:32 AM // 03:32

It's really all about your heroes. Personally I use what I know to be a sub-optimal build:

http://www.gwpvx.com/Special:PvXDeco...Submit+Q uery

But I have heroes that do just about whatever they can to boost my damage (Splinter, Orders, Curses, etc....) do even in HM I really feel like the targets that I am focused on go BOOM really quickly. Personally I don't really do much "high end" Guild Wars but as far as vanquishing and most quest chains, I feel my bow ranger works just fine.

HigherMinion · May 29, 2012, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

It's really all about your heroes. Personally I use what I know to be a sub-optimal build:

http://www.gwpvx.com/Special:PvXDeco...Submit+Q uery

But I have heroes that do just about whatever they can to boost my damage (Splinter, Orders, Curses, etc....) do even in HM I really feel like the targets that I am focused on go BOOM really quickly. Personally I don't really do much "high end" Guild Wars but as far as vanquishing and most quest chains, I feel my bow ranger works just fine.

I did a ZB the other day with a bunch of IA rangers, they were pretty bad at putting out damage. I was buffing them with GDW, but it doesn't matter whether you give them Splinter or GDW, it still deals terrible damage.

I would recommend a Glass Arrows build for spiking. Glass Arrows, triple Shot, Dual Shot and Frenzy, SY+whatever.

KotCR · May 29, 2012, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The damage capabilities of a bow are hilariously weak compared to the options presented by every other martial weapon, except the Spear, which is also bad.

Yes, but these two inferior martial weapons have something in common. They are both ranged.

Ranged martial weapons are inferior to melee martial weapons by design. You have to trade something for the advantage of not having to get into melee range to use them.

That's not too say that both the Spear and the Bow shouldn't have some tweaking, but their DPS should never be as good as that of the melee martial weapons.

It's just right now the DPS of them is like 50% lower, when it should only be about 20% to 25% lower to have some sort of balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

Spears are better at conditions than bows. Access to deep wound alone makes it superior.

As powerful as deep wound is, nah they aren't.

Bow has access to Poison, which Spear does not (and if using Apply Poison/Poison Tip Signet to add Poison to Spear is a valid argument, then so too is using "Find Their Weakness!" to add Deep Wound to bows). If you want to be able to put out enough Degen for your pressure to matter, Poison is crucial. Poison + Bleed will kill somebody faster than Bleed + Deep Wound do - at least in a vacuum situation.

Applying other conditions via Bow is far less situational then applying conditions from Spear too (need to Bleed them first to add Cripple, need to score a critical, have the enemy standing still or have the enemy under 50% health to add Deep Wound or enemy needs to already be suffering a condition to add Daze with Spear. Bow can Cripple, Poison or Daze unconditionally).

Then, while not directly condition-related, Bow has AoE, Spear does not (unless you count the incredibly situational Holy Spear). Bow also has vastly (and I mean vastly, as in best in the game vs. worst in the game) interrupts. I guess the fact a Spear is only one-handed and a Bow is two-handed makes up for one of these differences, but not all of them.

Skyy High · May 29, 2012, 12:12 PM // 12:12

My bow build does a consistent 50 single-target dps, 70 if I don't have to reapply preps (ie, the mob is dead within ~20 seconds). That's not bad considering I don't have to waste time running around when I switch targets. But the hivemind has concluded that rangers = sucky damage, so you won't really hear anything but that on this forum.

dsielschott · May 29, 2012, 12:23 PM // 12:23

I think rangers are still a great prof. to play... the problem is that you want single target damage... splinter/barrage is a great build with great AoE and most of my marksmen builds contain about 4-5 skills which put out alot of damage then I have room for the PvE only skills to add to my damage output.... ebon sin, PI, ebon battle standards... ranger was not supposed to be the group killing machine you want it to be it is a backline support role that can deliver massive trouble for groups.... play it that way with the pve skills and you will be happy...

Xenomortis · May 29, 2012, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

My bow build does a consistent 50 single-target dps, 70 if I don't have to reapply preps (ie, the mob is dead within ~20 seconds). That's not bad considering I don't have to waste time running around when I switch targets. But the hivemind has concluded that rangers = sucky damage, so you won't really hear anything but that on this forum.

Your build accomplishes nothing in comparison to what can be done by Eles, Mesmers, Necros, Sins, Warriors and Dervs (emphasis on the first three). Surprising as this may be, DPS isn't actually relevant in that situation.

Premium Unleaded · May 29, 2012, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by KotCR

...

The problem is that you're implying poison, bleeding and cripple in an isolated situation are actually useful in pve. The fact is, degen is crap in general for pve unless it's a secondary effect (eg. death nova, SF, CoP) exacerbated by the HM changes a few months back.
The <50% hp condition of merciless spear is hardly an issue, because unless you're facing massive, constant healing, putting on dw below half way makes for a decent spike. The problem with it isn't it's condtional application, but the fact that it's a spear attack.
Also, technobabble > BHA in most circumstances.

The main saving grace for bows in pve, compared to spears, is that it's capable of aoe with barrage and volley. Don't get me wrong, it's a significant aspect as far as pve is concerned, but that's about it though.

Voodoo Rage · May 29, 2012, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I did a ZB the other day with a bunch of IA rangers, they were pretty bad at putting out damage. I was buffing them with GDW, but it doesn't matter whether you give them Splinter or GDW, it still deals terrible damage.

I would recommend a Glass Arrows build for spiking. Glass Arrows, triple Shot, Dual Shot and Frenzy, SY+whatever.

I'm not really sure how well Incendiary Arrows stacks up to barrage but it's definitely pretty fun to watch all those small damage packets fly. The biggest downsides are that it is a 5 second recharge and only hits up to 3 targets, so if you are able to ball a bigger group more predictably; no doubt you want barrage. Otherwise 3 seconds of burning is 42 damage if I do my math right (barring degen already capped off by other influences) and you get lots of +16 packets flying from the Ignite Arrows preparation (which you can't take with Barrage). But I'm not not going to argue about this build being optimal, because it isn't. My point is that with the right heros, just about anything works fine so if you like using a bow, I wouldn't sweat it.

BTW, don't forget that with the recent PvE buff, for a lot of us with crappy Luxon/Kurzick ranks, Triple Shot is pretty sweet, especially if your arrows are being properly buffed.

Skyy High · May 29, 2012, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Your build accomplishes nothing in comparison to what can be done by Eles, Mesmers, Necros, Sins, Warriors and Dervs (emphasis on the first three). Surprising as this may be, DPS isn't actually relevant in that situation.

Sorry, were we talking about utility? Because I could've sworn that the OP was concerned with bow damage. Yeah, directly comparing a ranger to a mesmer or ele is a bit lopsided, but I'm not comparing myself to them, I'm comparing myself to sins, warriors, and dervs. I don't think that 50-70 ranged sustainable DPS is anything to scoff at. It's also worth pointing out that a ranger using EBSoH is a hell of a lot more helpful to his heroes than a warrior or other melee profession using the skill, because your heroes are going to be standing next to you.

HigherMinion · May 29, 2012, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

I'm not really sure how well Incendiary Arrows stacks up to barrage but it's definitely pretty fun to watch all those small damage packets fly. The biggest downsides are that it is a 5 second recharge and only hits up to 3 targets, so if you are able to ball a bigger group more predictably; no doubt you want barrage. Otherwise 3 seconds of burning is 42 damage if I do my math right (barring degen already capped off by other influences) and you get lots of +16 packets flying from the Ignite Arrows preparation (which you can't take with Barrage). But I'm not not going to argue about this build being optimal, because it isn't. My point is that with the right heros, just about anything works fine so if you like using a bow, I wouldn't sweat it.

BTW, don't forget that with the recent PvE buff, for a lot of us with crappy Luxon/Kurzick ranks, Triple Shot is pretty sweet, especially if your arrows are being properly buffed.

When making a player build, I always focus on single-target damage. Especially for a melee or ranger (any physical really) because they have the caster support of Mark of Pain and Splinter to make sure they get their slice of AoE, but also Dom mesmers are a staple to any hero team now and provide all the AoE damage you need. However, spiking priority targets is more important for a human (since you can rapid-fire and micro buffs for yourself)

Glass Arrows does this, Triple Shot with Splinter is still good, and with Dual Shot and Triple you have your 5 Splinters, and it's good compression for MoP, too. It has the added bonus of increasing your single-target damage to levels similar, if not higher, to SoH (because of the multi-arrow skills). Too bad Ascan is gone/SoH doesn't affect ranged gear.

Infact, SoH should affect all physical sources; it would certainly make the paragon and ranger's damage more comparable to an assassin or warrior (excluding death blossom, which splinter replicates anyway).

Kunder · May 29, 2012, 08:14 PM // 20:14

You really, really need to use Volley+Barrage+IAS to make AoE ranger builds work right. You will attack nearly 2x as fast as just Barrage under normal circumstances.

The real problem with bows is really IAS. 90% of PvE physical damage comes from buffs and buffs only care about IAS, not what kind of weapon you are holding. +33% IAS flatbows are only as fast as 0-IAS melee, and on top of that your only AoE skills (the other way to effectively attack faster) either suck or reduce your IAS. Thank god for Triple Shot at least. Also, IAS is incredibly hard to get for rangers in the first place. Your options are a Dwarven Stance + Lightning Reflexes (lol, not even 100% uptime too), a preparation (lol), an elite (lol), or Frenzy (lol). Every other class in the game has IAS that basically works without issues. Rangers have ridiculous problems trying to get one into their build, and with the slowest attack speed in the game they are the ones that need it the most.

On top of that, the whole "removes preparations" clause removes the ranger's sole self-buffing ability, which would be akin to the only useful Elementalist elite having a "removes all attunements" clause or the only useful ritualist elite having a "removes all spirits" clause.

Also, energy costs for bow/ranger skills are totally out of whack in a post-Nightfall PvE world where not being able to spam an attack skill every attack means your build sucks. But I'll stop talking about things everyone already knows now.