Curse

wiz12268 · Jul 07, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Or does it and mine is just too short (4 seconds)?

Because if that doesn't then the whole imbagon build everyone seems to like so much has a 25 power skill that is almost useless. And totally unecessary in most cases.

FoxBat · Jul 07, 2009, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Because SY affects all party members EXCEPT yourself.

However TNTF IS a shout that affects you, and with 14 leadership, you can use that to keep your agressive up, albeit it's a pain. I often bring fall back, both to easily recover from some TNTF screwup, and to move faster between battles.

BadgerzFTW · Jul 07, 2009, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

Because if that doesn't then the whole imbagon build everyone seems to like so much has a 25 power skill that is almost useless. And totally unecessary in most cases.

Not really. It's 25 energy the first time, and then you should be keeping it up. All you really need is Focused Anger, TNTF, SY!, and AR. All else is optional, and you can bring a shout or chant to keep it up. Constant IAS is nice and helps build adrenaline.

wiz12268 · Jul 07, 2009, 04:57 PM // 16:57

yeah now I see why. I dont play that guy too much. But since that build seemed to be getting so much attention I wanted to try it out.

Either paragons have pretty weak builds or people don't really know what an awesome build is for a class. because that one isn't super IMO, despite all the accolades it gets, I have 38 power, which is a lot for aparagon I am sure, and i still have major power issues.

Also since it is based around skills that need power the two that add more adrenaline and the one I mentioned that alows you to attack faster just don't make sense to me, especially since it doesn't have any core spear attacks listed.

I suppose with a zealous head it might help some, but since there aren't any multi target paragon attacks I am not sure how much that would help either.

Hard to split up roles. Either you are buffing your party or you are doing damage, this build doesn't seem know what it wants to do, it has core skills that buff, but the most costly skills power wise raise edrenaline which is used in attacking skills.

But I guess enough people love it for some reason that it seems to be the top cookie cutter build out there, but it doesn't look all that great to me. Especially when you can't use half the skills half the time due to power issues, and you have plenty of adrenaline but only a max 2 spear attacks. Because the 8 adrenaline required to pop save yourselves comes up in just about 5-6 seconds even without the 25% attack rate buff.

So basically the weak link in the whole thing is aggresive refrain, because with 2 adrenaline raising skills attacking twice as fast with auto attacks more than likely isn't worth the 25 power the skill costs.

Ratson Itamar · Jul 07, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

I have to say that I haven't read your last post completely, beside speaking nonsense it was getting harder and harder to read what you wrote. Anyway I will explain, very shortly, why Imbagons got that name. It is not without a good reason.

Imbagon:

A constant upkeep of +100 AL which means 82.2% damage reduction, add TNTF's 35% damage reduction and you just made Hard Mode an Easy Mode. You have 96+ (10-17) AL, so with the average AL of above 100AL you're the squishiest in your entire team with the next squishiest guy with 160+(10-17) AL. With one monk and imbagon keeping an entire team from more than a couple of mobs in HM isn't even a challenge anymore.

While being able to give an ample protection for the entire duration of the battle he's also able to pump up some major damage in physical oriented teams. He doesn't do it solely from his own build. Enchantments, hexes and the last but not least, orders. Your joining date is from 2005 so I assume that you know what I'm talking about.

The spear is also an advantage over other physical damage dealers. Attacking fast at range while being able to carry a shield. Don't take that lightly. Another advantage is that a paragon can change targets with extreme ease, exploiting a MoP Nuker's damage the most.

I probably can go on, but I explained more than enough.

wiz12268 · Jul 07, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

sorry, but you're wrong. it's not a matter of opinion.

LOL the mentality of all GW players, they see a build that people post, they try it out as is, and then say how awesome it is, not even realizing it has serious limitations in areas.

But as posted the build isn't all that great, you need another chant or shout that end (and thus limits your available slots for attack skills further). So it is either overkill one way, not good enough another way, but it surely isn't a "perfect" build that's for sure.

The build I threw together without even knowing the class seemed better that this one that everyone touts as the best thing going. So either paragons are OP enough that they only need 6 skills to do well, or peopel got caught up in this build from jump street and don't even realize what they can actually do.

Icy The Mage · Jul 07, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

You should not be spamming Agressive Refrain, you should put it up once and that should be it. Also, you should be getting immense energy gain from spamming Save Yourselves whenever it charges.

The only skill you need to permantely upkeep Agressive Refrain is "There's Nothing to Fear!".

JONO51 · Jul 07, 2009, 05:29 PM // 17:29

No, you are actually wrong. I have no problems with energy, its just a case of making sure you understand the best times to use skills and not spmamming attacks on recharge (unless you have an orders).

wiz12268 · Jul 07, 2009, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

I have to say that I haven't read your last post completely, beside speaking nonsense it was getting harder and harder to read what you wrote. Anyway I will explain, very shortly, why Imbagons got that name. It is not without a good reason.

Imbagon:

A constant upkeep of +100 AL which means 82.2% damage reduction, add TNTF's 35% damage reduction and you just made Hard Mode an Easy Mode. You have 96+ (10-17) AL, so with the average AL of above 100AL you're the squishiest in your entire team with the next squishiest guy with 160+(10-17) AL. With one monk and imbagon keeping an entire team from more than a couple of mobs in HM isn't even a challenge anymore.

While being able to give an ample protection for the entire duration of the battle he's also able to pump up some major damage in physical oriented teams. He doesn't do it solely from his own build. Enchantments, hexes and the last but not least, orders. Your joining date is from 2005 so I assume that you know what I'm talking about.

The spear is also an advantage over other physical damage dealers. Attacking fast at range while being able to carry a shield. Don't take that lightly. Another advantage is that a paragon can change targets with extreme ease, exploiting a MoP Nuker's damage the most.

I probably can go on, but I explained more than enough.

All you needed to say was "add anthem of flame" and it covers everything, makes agressive refrain perpetual, only costs 5 power and adds a burn buff to party members, so it covers all bases.

My point wasn't the buffing, it was the reasoning behind having a 25 power skill that was semi-useless in a base build that doesn't have enough skills listed to make it perpetual. Because "there is nothing to fear" is much more important than aggresive refrain, and unless you go all radiance and attune runes you won't have enough power to keep them up along with the elite.

You have 50 points of power worth of base skills in this build, eliminating aggresive refrain (when you can't keep it perpetual) cuts it in half, and you could add soemthing alot more productive. Adrenaline shouldn't be a problem as it is, so attacking twice as fast is irrelevant, especially when the skill costs 25 power, and causes a minor debuff to boot.

Aeon221 · Jul 07, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

LOL the mentality of all GW players, they see a build that people post, they try it out as is, and then say how awesome it is, not even realizing it has serious limitations in areas.

But as posted the build isn't all that great, you need another chant or shout that end (and thus limits your available slots for attack skills further). So it is either overkill one way, not good enough another way, but it surely isn't a "perfect" build that's for sure.

The build I threw together without even knowing the class seemed better that this one that everyone touts as the best thing going. So either paragons are OP enough that they only need 6 skills to do well, or peopel got caught up in this build from jump street and don't even realize what they can actually do.

The imbagon isn't the product of groupthink, it's the product of constant testing through play.

What you should really be asking yourself is why you ended up with a different answer than the rest of the community. Is it because you're some kind of Guild Wars Whisperer, or is it because you're inexperienced and ignorant and can't tell good from bad?

After all, you're having energy management issues from running the imbagon, while most people feel the need for additional energy skills to shed all the excess.

Better keep that salmon handy, mon frere!

wiz12268 · Jul 07, 2009, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcyFiftyFive

You should not be spamming Agressive Refrain, you should put it up once and that should be it. Also, you should be getting immense energy gain from spamming Save Yourselves whenever it charges.

The only skill you need to permantely upkeep Agressive Refrain is "There's Nothing to Fear!".

Impossible, even with shout, most you can get with just those 3 is 3 recharges then the timers overlap. But like I siad above throw anthem of flame and it makes it perpetual so no worries, still not sure if it couldn't be replaced with something better.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 07, 2009, 05:39 PM // 17:39

wiz12268

You should have a backup shout/chant to upkeep Agressive Refrain on your Paragon. Best one in my opinion is FGJ!, you can chain it with Soldiers Fury for constant enchanced adrenaline gain and upkeep AR without much trouble.

I also recomend you take a +20 energy staff with you and two headpieces, one for leasership and another for Spear Mastery. High energy staff will ensure you always have enough energy should AR run out, two types of headpieces will allow you to cast TNtF! and AR at their maximum power without loosing hp/damage.

Omgopolis · Jul 07, 2009, 05:41 PM // 17:41

If you're having energy problems, your leadership is probably too low, like around 4 or 5 instead of being at 13. Spamming SY nets you so much energy that it can be difficult to use it all most of the time. Plus if you use a headpiece with a Superior Leadership rune to make AR last even longer it's very easy to maintain it with just TNtF.

You don't want to drop AR because it lets you attack faster and do more damage, as well as get adrenaline even faster so you can maintain that +100 armor on everyone. It's more than worth the one time 25e cost and constant cracked armor, and I can't think of anything worth taking instead of it.

king_trouble · Jul 07, 2009, 05:57 PM // 17:57

When I run an imbagon I usually bring these skills with these attrributes (sorry I don't know how to put this into a template form):

Spear Mastery: 12 + 1 + 1
Command: 6 + 1 (but I have a q7 max command shield) you should run 8 + 1 for the most part with regular max q9 shields
Leadership: 11 + 1 (with my q7) with a q9 you should run 10 + 1

Spear of Fury
Anthem of Flame or Anthem of Weakness (depends on zones and what creatures's I'm up agains.)
"Save Yourselves"
"There is Nothing to Fear"
"For Greater Justice"
"Focus Anger"
Agressive Refrain
and either "Fallback" or another spear attack.

With the anthem of flame or weakness combo and spear of fury you get an instant recharge of SY for the most part, which makes energy management incredibly easy. Anthem of Flame cost 5 energy and with a party of 5 I get back 5 energy, spear of fury is 5 energy but then I get back 5 energy from using SY. On top of that you really don't need to use TNTF unless your party comes under heavy fire. Using one imbagon a team of two monks and 4 other damage dealers, my team made it though vizunah square even with the other team resigning and leaving on HM. All it comes down to is that +100 armor to every makes healing incredibly easy for monks, thus letting them run through longer battles with less time needed for an energy recharge. Take in mind also because of Anthem of Flame or Weakness you are able to keep AR up even during times during when your team is running between mobs. If you can't do that or even maintain that shout I don't think this class is for you since the paragon relies on shouts as a form of energy management.

wiz12268 · Jul 07, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omgopolis

If you're having energy problems, your leadership is probably too low, like around 4 or 5 instead of being at 13. Spamming SY nets you so much energy that it can be difficult to use it all most of the time. Plus if you use a headpiece with a Superior Leadership rune to make AR last even longer it's very easy to maintain it with just TNtF.

You don't want to drop AR because it lets you attack faster and do more damage, as well as get adrenaline even faster so you can maintain that +100 armor on everyone. It's more than worth the one time 25e cost and constant cracked armor, and I can't think of anything worth taking instead of it.

I only had energy problems because i had to recast refrain after about a minute or so, and in doing that I lost the ability to spam nothing to fear.

My leadership is 14 so no worries there, its not that. I do iunderstand the basics. I just didn't see how the build as it has been posted worked. But you definately need a 3rd spammable (low power requirement) chant or shout that procs the refrain to reset. As for for great justice, maybe, but if you use that then using the elite to gain adrenaline is definately overkill I would imagine.

But I don't see why Soldiers Fury couldn't replace both of those actualy (aggressive refrain & focused anger) and open up another slot for a damage skill. Would have to check it out against the set up I have now. But a lot less power cost, and it actually let's you attack faster and also give quite an adrenaline jump. But without a thrid chant or shout Soldier's fury would be better from the looks, because you can't keep aggresive refrain up perpetually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

Quit being weak and using aggressive. Use frenzy, be noble, and be done with it!

tht one makes the most sense actually if you aren't taking too much damage.

king_trouble · Jul 07, 2009, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

As for for great justice, maybe, but if you use that then using the elite to gain adrenaline is definately overkill I would imagine.

But I don't see why Soldiers Fury couldn't replace both of those actualy (aggressive refrain & focused anger) and open up another slot for a damage skill. Would have to check it out against the set up I have now. But a lot less power cost, and it actually let's you attack faster and also give quite an adrenaline jump. But without a thrid chant or shout Soldier's fury would be better from the looks, because you can't keep aggresive refrain up perpetually.

You use FGJ during that 15 second down time of when Focus Anger is not in effect to continue to keep up your adrenelin, not at the same times. On the other hand Soldier's Fury is not a good idea because you need a 2nd should that would be long lasting and that will not run out so easely, thus your energy would run into some problems. Also it does not gain as much adrednaline

wiz12268 · Jul 07, 2009, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by king_trouble

When I run an imbagon I usually bring these skills with these attrributes (sorry I don't know how to put this into a template form):

Spear Mastery: 12 + 1 + 1
Command: 6 + 1 (but I have a q7 max command shield) you should run 8 + 1 for the most part with regular max q9 shields
Leadership: 11 + 1 (with my q7) with a q9 you should run 10 + 1

Spear of Fury
Anthem of Flame or Anthem of Weakness (depends on zones and what creatures's I'm up agains.)
"Save Yourselves"
"There is Nothing to Fear"
"For Greater Justice"
"Focus Anger"
Agressive Refrain
and either "Fallback" or another spear attack.

With the anthem of flame or weakness combo and spear of fury you get an instant recharge of SY for the most part, which makes energy management incredibly easy. Anthem of Flame cost 5 energy and with a party of 5 I get back 5 energy, spear of fury is 5 energy but then I get back 5 energy from using SY. On top of that you really don't need to use TNTF unless your party comes under heavy fire. Using one imbagon a team of two monks and 4 other damage dealers, my team made it though vizunah square even with the other team resigning and leaving on HM. All it comes down to is that +100 armor to every makes healing incredibly easy for monks, thus letting them run through longer battles with less time needed for an energy recharge. Take in mind also because of Anthem of Flame or Weakness you are able to keep AR up even during times during when your team is running between mobs. If you can't do that or even maintain that shout I don't think this class is for you since the paragon relies on shouts as a form of energy management.

That's close to what I had before, but i didnt use agressive refrain.

But I only have 11+1+1 spear mastery since I only have one spear attack (barded spear)
11+1 in leadership

8+1 in command

Skills are (now) Focused anger, spear of fury, barbed spear, save yourselves, for great justice, anthem of flame, and aggresive refrain.

Before I tried the "imbagon" build I didn't use aggressive refrain or for great justice, and had 2 more spear skills, and took the points out of leadership and back into spear mastery. And sometimes swithced focused anger out depending.

So basically my bar isn't THAT different than what it used to be. But I am not exactly what makes it an"imbagon" build in the first place. Unless it is the name of the guy who "invented" it.

xDusT II · Jul 07, 2009, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Use a high energy set to keep cycling "TnTF" on recharge which in turn keeps AR up permanently.

wiz12268 · Jul 07, 2009, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by king_trouble

You use FGJ during that 15 second down time of when Focus Anger is not in effect to continue to keep up your adrenelin, not at the same times. On the other hand Soldier's Fury is not a good idea because you need a 2nd should that would be long lasting and that will not run out so easely, thus your energy would run into some problems. Also it does not gain as much adrednaline

I use it, but before doing the "imbagon" build I never used them both together.

Soldier's fury is spammable, as soon as it goes off you hit it again, and it only cost 5 power. I used it before with for great justice and it seemed Ok, but I was doing more damage then and not buffing so adrenaline wasn't a major issue then because I was constantly attacking.

king_trouble · Jul 07, 2009, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

So basically my bar isn't THAT different than what it used to be. But I am not exactly what makes it an"imbagon" build in the first place. Unless it is the name of the guy who "invented" it.

I would use spear of redemption instead of barbed spear, because your adrednaline should be overflowing. Also having a furious spear head helps alot since it gives a chance of getting more adrenaline per attack. Anyway the meaning behing an "imbagon" is simple. Imba stems from the root imbalance due to the skills behing highly overpowered, which is common in alot of pve skills, due to the inherit +100 armor rating to the rest of your party, along with another 30% or so from TNTF. Due to this combo damage can be magitated to almost 0. A friend and I went vanquishing and we wanted to see how many hydras we could take, in the end we took on around 15 hydras with the help from SY and TNTF. The second part of the word "gon" just facilitates that's it's a paragon.

Edit: Soldier's Fury needs a shout to work, FGY only last 20 seconds with a 45 second cooldown