Curse

Lord Xenos · Apr 06, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Hmm sorry I didn't explain it very well let me try again.

From what I understand and if you watch close enough every healing skill for minions that you have on your skill bar gives the minion -1 pip degen that is for every healing skill. That includes Blood of the Master, Veratas Sac, and such. Thats from my understanding.

Translate it? Hmm didn't know I was so confusing?

Okay Animate Bone Fiend & Animate Minions take 25 energy. Animate Bone Horror takes 15 energy. Have I lost you? Yeah hope not. Veratas Sacrafise, Blood of the Master, & Heal Area all take 10 energy each. Correct? If you have scars and a energy offhand/weapon like me. I have 52 energy. I think thats normal for most MM builds. Well I'll get to the summary. You dont have enough energy to start off without OoB to me unless your going to do a lot of regenning?

Once again I cant remember cause I'm not at my house where I can pull it GW and too lazy to check but OoB takes like 60 health? Earlier you said it was an expense? Just cast Heal Area.

Yeah sorry I was at school when I typed the first part. I couldnt think of Vamp Gaze.

Maybe you dont understand where I was talking about the energy aspect? I was just saying how much energy it takes to cast the spells. Also when I cast OoB I get 15 energy. If you didn't understand the first part I doubt you will understand this. Oh well. Yeah just forget it if you dont understand that.

Fungus Amongus · Apr 06, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Thanks for clarifying, I now see where you are coming from.

First, you are mistaken about the degen part. Degen is related to time a minion has been alive. There are threads explaining minion degeneration in good detail, check them out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Xenos

You dont have enough energy to start off without OoB to me unless your going to do a lot of regenning?

Starting out the corpses will not be falling so fast that you need the energy boost right away. The time elapsed between the first few deaths is enough to regen enough energy that the soul reaping will give you enough to raise another minion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Xenos

Okay Animate Bone Fiend & Animate Minions take 25 energy. Animate Bone Horror takes 15 energy. Have I lost you? Yeah hope not. Veratas Sacrafise, Blood of the Master, & Heal Area all take 10 energy each.

If you cast your healing skills right off the bat then you are wasting energy. You shouldn't need to cast all of them whenever you can. Verata's Sacrifice is nice to help maintain a minion summoned in the middle of a battle if it will be taking damage immediately. Otherwise your other healing spells are best used when your minions return to you after a battle. Or occasionally to heal the fiends that are hanging back away from heavy action.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Xenos

Once again I cant remember cause I'm not at my house where I can pull it GW and too lazy to check but OoB takes like 60 health? Earlier you said it was an expense? Just cast Heal Area.

Yes, I did mention it was an expense, but didn't say that it was a worthless expense. By the way, a 60 health sacrifice with OoB means you are running with 300 health.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fungus Amongus

OoB gives energy at the expense of some health. (Don't fret about the instant results.)

This has wandered off topic so that's all I am going to say here.

Peace.

GW-guy · Apr 06, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

i dont know i´f this is you guys think its n00by, but it works excellent to me, i do use consume corpse to get extra energy, i know, i waste one corpse, but its worth tha. i gain alot of energy and health..

ender6 · Apr 06, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Seems like a lot of ppl are posting what they think it would be like to be an MM as opposed to actually playing one and posting results of being an MM.

Firstly OoB isn't necessary in the least when being an MM. Not saying you shouldn't make it your elite, just saying it isn't necessary.

For example, when I MM in an SF farming team there will be times when the corpses won't stop falling and I spam raise Minnions (horrors and fiends) at a relentless rate. Now due to Soul Reaping, I get about 20 corpses in and haven't even thought of using OoB, but finally down to the last few corpses maybe 4 sitting on the ground and I still have yet to raise them, i am tapped -- out of juice and I have an army of 20+ minnions. Oh no what will i do? well if I have brought OoB I will use that, if not, I won't really care...because i can wait a few seconds for my energy to rise to start raising them up the remaining corpses. Bottom line, it just isn't necessary. Of course, when I SF farm, everyone has a role on the team, mine is to raise corpses, so why shouldn't I bring OoB if it helps me get 1 more corpse up quicker?

Second example, when I solo farm North Kyrta with my MM I never bring OoB. 1) I don't feel a need to lower my health, and 2) it isn't necessary, corpses aren't falling that fast. And trust me, it doesn't take me long to clear out all of North Kyrta. The army grows quickly.

My build I usually have Soul Reaping at around 10 and Death max'd with runes at 16, I usually put the remainder of the skill points in whatever category i am pulling my elite from. This supplies me with more than enough energy.

Is consume corpse a good skill? not for an MM. I'm sure it serves its purpose for other builds.

Incidentally if you want to try MM'ing here's some core MM skills.

Summon Fiends
Summon Horros
Veretas Sacrafice
Blood of the Master (Monk secondary probably use Heal Area)
Death Nova
Taste of Death (Monk's might find this unnecessary)
Dark Bond
-empty- (Whatever your heart contents)

These I would say would be core to your MM build -- of course depending on the Enviornment and your secondary you might change some of the above.

Lastly I have heard it said, MM is the one build that requires no elite....

You could certainly argue that no build requires an elite, but I think it is especially pertinent to an MM.

**Go be an MM

Lord Xenos · Apr 06, 2006, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Hmm I dont think your right about the degen thing cause a very experienced friend told me that its related to the number of healing skills your using and I've talked to numerous others that say the same thing. I've never heard of your theory. You may be correct but I'm just saying I've heard different. Yeah this has gone off-topic. Maybe just forget it and not waste any more space in here.

Robin_Anadri · Apr 07, 2006, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ender6

Lastly I have heard it said, MM is the one build that requires no elite....

You could certainly argue that no build requires an elite, but I think it is especially pertinent to an MM.

... until April 28th. Then MM builds will require Animate Flesh Golem.

xjej · Apr 07, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Am I the only one using Ranger as secondary with trollo unguent and healing spring ? ( no OoB , never feel i need it in any kind of run I made with MM )

MelechRic · Apr 07, 2006, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjej

Am I the only one using Ranger as secondary with trollo unguent and healing spring ? ( no OoB , never feel i need it in any kind of run I made with MM )

Healing Spring would be a great replacement for Blood of the Master, but I wouldn't drop Verata's Sacrifice for it. Minions seem to have a mind of their own and when you get enough of them they won't all get in place for a BotM heal. HS would work well because you could herd them over to the spring.

I think as far as elites are concerned it's really up to whoever is playing the MM. I use OoB and can roll through SF with a 5 man team easily. When I FA farm I usually wind up at the end with the minions killing Rago and Runar while the team sits back and enjoys the show. If you're competent with your skill usage and have at least 10 points in SR then OoB is just icing on the energy cake.

The best thing I can say about playing an MM is to never waste energy gained from SR. As I get a lot of bodies dropping I try to never let my energy bar hit max. I always want to be casting. If you max on energy and something dies without you casting then you just lost whatever energy SR would have given you. That's the worst thing you can do. It's also why I go with a collectors wand with 20% chance for a fast recharge and a collectors offhand with 20/20% chance for fast recharge/fast casting. These are invaluable in making it so I never hit my max energy. (I suppose a 20/20 collector's staff would be fine too.)

Just my $0.02

byteme! · Apr 07, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

THE SINGLE MOST ENJOYABLE BUILD FOR ANY CHARACTER IN ANY PART OF THE GAME REGARDLESS IF IT'S A NECRO OR WHAT NOT IS ONLY A MATTER OF PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

In other words it's a matter of taste. We can't tell you what YOU would consider is the "funnest" until you go out and try them out yourself. Be your own judge. KTHXBYE

My personal preference for funnest build is not a specific build set in stone by another user aka cookie cutter build but a build that I would come up with from casual playing. Nothing more fun to me then trying new things and implementing them into the game and watching with anxiety as it either fails miserably or works the way I thought it would.

byteme! · Apr 07, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Xenos

Hmm I dont think your right about the degen thing cause a very experienced friend told me that its related to the number of healing skills your using and I've talked to numerous others that say the same thing. I've never heard of your theory. You may be correct but I'm just saying I've heard different. Yeah this has gone off-topic. Maybe just forget it and not waste any more space in here.

If you are referring to the idea that the number of healing skills you bring/use determines the degen rate of your minions then you and and your so-called "very experienced" friends need to "re-experience" themselves because that idea is equally as false as the rumor that other healings skills besides a Necro's own makes minions degen faster. Again they are both false. Have been proven a gazillion times in far too many threads. If you're still not convinced I suggest you make a MM of your own and show your "very experienced" friends how "inexperienced" they really are.

I think you're "very experienced" friends thought perhaps the reason their minions regen so fast is because they were kept alive for so long due to the "many" healing skills they brought without understanding the fact that the minion hp degen rate increases over time. I believe they degen at +1 PIP per 20 seconds or something like that.

Contessa · Apr 09, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by xjej

Am I the only one using Ranger as secondary with trollo unguent and healing spring ? ( no OoB , never feel i need it in any kind of run I made with MM )

I've been experimenting with N/R builds for a looooong time. Beast Mastery (and a little Wilderness Survival) is fun to combine with any necro build.

I use Energizing Wind for energy sometimes and NEVER have energy problems. This way you can cast Spiteful Spirit, Suffering and a couple of other high cost skills without even blinking an eye about energy. I can make a ton of 25-cost fiends very quickly. I also use bloodstained boots and weapons to for faster casting. You need to coordinate this with live players so they can prepare or equip weapons to allow for the extra casting time. If you're still having recharge problems, you can use Serpent's Quickness too. I have found no need for it, but some people swear by it. I could see it being useful in a spiker build.

Energizing Wind: Create a level 1...8 Spirit. For creatures within its range, all skills cost 15 Energy less (minimum cost 10 Energy), and skills recharge 25% slower than normal. This Spirit dies after 30...126 seconds.

Sometimes I take a pet and spam Disrupting Lunge for interupts and Ferocious Strike for energy.

Ferocious Strike: Your animal companion attempts a Ferocious Strike that deals +13...25 damage. If that attack hits, you gain adrenaline and 3...9 Energy. Energy cost 5, Instant casting, 8 seconds to recharge.

Troll Unguent is wonderful to offset blood sacrificing spells. You can spam Blood of the Master easily with this. I use to use Healing Spring, but BotM is much faster.

Go have some fun!!

I also play a mesmer/necro, but this should work with a necro/mesmer too. I call it the Suicide Build (referring to the enemies ofcourse). It's lots of fun to watch the enemy kill themselves.:
Spiteful Spirit, Empathy, Clumsiness, Arcane Thievery, Cry of Frustration. Sometimes I add Shatter Hex/enchantment, Remove Hex and Energy Burn and some life-stealing spells or wells (god knows, necros have a ton). I don't like backfire because of the recharge time.

The Fenixxor · Apr 09, 2006, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Dual energy Glyphs on your MM ftw, no attributes required so you still gain energy boosts from your soul reaping. Although in sorrows furnace i prefer N/Mo with essence bond, but whatever... favourite necro build for me is also MM

although the lack of heads does freak me out a bit.

Contessa · Apr 09, 2006, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Regarding Minion Health Degeneration

Basically, after a minion's health has degenerated beyond -10, it may appear that healing them is making them die faster since healing doesn't seem as effective. However, healing minions does not increase degeneration. Not taking into consideration damage caused by other sources, degeneration is only caused by time.

Here's a quote from Guildwiki:

"Minions are subject to constant health degeneration, starting at 1 "pip" of degen at summoning, and increasing by 1 pip of degeration every 20 seconds. (One pip of degeneration is -2 health per second.) While their actual health will never experience degeneration greater than -10 pips (20 health per second), they can have hidden degeneration greater than -10, if they have been "alive" long enough, that will counteract any regeneration from such skills as Verata's Sacrifice or Healing Breeze.
Minions can be healed not only with necromancer spells like Verata's Sacrifice or Blood of the Master, but also with Monk spells like Heal Other. Contrary to some rumors, healing a minion with a Healing Prayers skill does not increase its degeneration.[sic]The effect of health degeneration is capped at 10, meaning that a minion will at most lose health at a rate of 10 health every 0.5 seconds. However, minion health degeneration will become increasingly difficult to counteract over time. This is because the total (raw, uncapped) degeneration rate can still increase beyond 10, and this is the value that regeneration effects (e.g. from Verata's Sacrifice and Healing Breeze) are calculated against.

If a minion's raw health degeneration has increased to -20 pips over time, the minion will suffer from -10 pips because of the degeneration cap. If Verata's Sacrifice is cast to give the minion +10 pips, the minion will experience -20 + 10 = -10 pips, which is the same as if Verata's Sacrifice had not been cast."

GW-guy · Apr 10, 2006, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Today did i help my friend whit ruins of surmia, i plaid MM, but even if it was in ascalon and really easy, i couldnt have more than 7 minons, i had like 1-4 minons normally, i tested this build that i found yesterday, can someone tell me whats wrong?

<skills>

1. animate bone fiend
2. blood of the master
3. taste of deah
4. death nova
5. consume corpse
6. healing breeze
7. heal area
8. resurecton signet

<attributes>

healing prayers - 9
death magic - 16
soul reaping - 9

<weapon, focus>

colector desert truncheon 20 % recharge+ desert collector soul reaping foci energy 27/1-

Vilaptca · Apr 10, 2006, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Seeing as he said MMs really aren't good for FoW, and all you are posting MM...

Two FoC Necros casting hexes and then spiking FoC on large groups in FoW is great fun. We had some sort of Rangers too...must of been Barrage...not sure, but it was great fun until they lost one Monk to Err=7, and the "OMG we don't have two monks!" syndrome hit...

Try it sometime...

I've only ever ran a battery/support build, SS or FoC in FoW though. I don't believe there are enough corpses in the whole entire FoW to make a decent MM army to last the whole thing.

Contessa · Apr 10, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW-guy

Today did i help my friend whit ruins of surmia, i plaid MM, but even if it was in ascalon and really easy, i couldnt have more than 7 minons, i had like 1-4 minons normally, i tested this build that i found yesterday, can someone tell me whats wrong?

<skills>

1. animate bone fiend
2. blood of the master
3. taste of deah
4. death nova
5. consume corpse
6. healing breeze
7. heal area
8. resurecton signet

<attributes>

healing prayers - 9
death magic - 16
soul reaping - 9

<weapon, focus>

colector desert truncheon 20 % recharge+ desert collector soul reaping foci energy 27/1-

Check you private messages for advice since this is a bit off topic. I sent you a general check list.

ender6 · Apr 10, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Since this has become a quasi MM thread I thought I would share this one with you guys...

I was doing an SF farming run yesterday playing as an SS (I often do it as MM--either is fun for me). I brought BR which I primarily use to help the bonder get his bonds up at the start. I will also use BR if for some reason the group gets into a sticky situation and I feel the Monk needs it, or if someone calls for energy.

At any rate the MM in the party that had managed to gather a weak little army of minnions kept spamming his energy and demanding that I BR him. It got so bad that i finally said I am an SS necro not a battery. I then mentioned that he really needed to work on his energy management skills. He then went into a tirade about how experienced he was as an MM. So I thought I would share a few pointers here for those "experienced" MM's out there.

1) Make certain you have a decent amount of points in soul reaping i usually have about 10. That means when someone dies (including one of your minnions) you will get energy.

2) Don't spam heal to the point that you are keeping alive 4 minnions with a degen of -10 health and you have no energy left.

3) If you are leaving behind unused corpses due to no energy -- you are most likely doing something wrong.

Now with those 3 points stated, think of your minnions as potential pockets of energy. Make certain that you are constantly allowing the weak and old minnions the chance to die off so that you can rez new ones. Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that you don't use verata's and blood of master or heal area (for the N/Mo), I am just saying there comes a point when it becomes ridiculous. It is called striking up a balance. And lastly, I don't care how "experienced" you think you are there is alawys room to learn and grow.

btw the minnion master in question had a 5 in soul reaping & utterly refused to stop spam healing to the point that he ran out of energy & left many unused corpses behind.

Ah to be n00bish and "experienced" those were the days...

xXa1 · Apr 11, 2006, 08:29 AM // 08:29

met 2 rather oddly built MM's during oro runs yesterday where i played bonder.

first, there was the MM with absolutely no soul reaping who kept demanding the SS battery for him ...

then there was the MM who brought SS as his elite. after telling him that the SS of our SS was higher levelled than his, he replied that he had maxed curses and death ... now even that wasn't true cause he had level 15 minions ...

in both cases the SS and i had to excuse ourselves. fun builds may be fun but when farming, efficiency is required and the cookie cutter builds have yet to be proven wrong.

GW-guy · Apr 11, 2006, 09:01 AM // 09:01

lol.. nice stories.. onr time when i was oro farming we had an MM that had lvl 3 minions, and he said *i just focus on their health*, the funny thing was he had something like 3-5 healing prayers and had 12 in blood magic, but the only blood skill he was using was vampiric gaze.., and he had attribute in curses to, and used wither. *NOTICE: he said he was MM*

Ermac · Apr 11, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Xenos

When being a MM your not going to get hit very much so Essence Bond is going to be -1 energy regen for just the fun of it? I dont think you will be taking many hits if you run a 5 man with a stance tank but I might be wrong?

You use it ON the tank ? >_>