Curse

Arctica · May 19, 2009, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Discord deals approximately 100 damage and takes 3 seconds for one hit.

Which means 3 necroes do approx 300 spike damage on a called target in every 2 seconds. With the exploding minions this is a huge damage output that can easily bring down any mob very fast. With the exception of mobs with multiple and strong healers.

maxxfury · May 19, 2009, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Discoway is quick and easy to set up and quick and easy to use.

Heroes + hench use disco well, and its much less hassle than tooling up physicals and tailoring builds to areas. Even better if you block disco and bind the skills to keystrokes and blast it your self.

Its point, click, win. move one, point n click.

Splinter, SoH, orders, Mop, physicals ect tear up stuff much faster, but getting your heroes to do it right? much more hassle than priming for disco.

hence its used so much. Hell i use it some days when im watchin tv and on msn, its barely more ative than sabway

lazy mode.

AtomicMew · May 19, 2009, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10365555

Jeydra, that is a 8 player build, whereas I'm talking about 2-man heroway. I don't even want to begin to discuss it and my feelings about it, as this is not the thread.

@Moloch: sure ranged physicals can do more DPS, but can ranged physicals also heal, create minions and make them explode? You can't seperate all these attributes from a discorder if you're going to compare them to a ranged physical. A discorder can do 100+ damage in 1.75 seconds, which is generally more than a physical can do. This way, a discorder's time is spent more efficiently, and thats what makes discordway so supreme.

Chthon · May 20, 2009, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10365555

That's not my build, but I certainly concur with the theory behind it. As for "but, but, but, that's an 8-player build," you can replace any 6 of the party members, excluding the AP-MoP, with a hero substitute and still have waaaay more DPS than discordway manages.

Also, for the record, the builds I've cited elsewhere as better than discordway include:
* AP+MoP plus HB+WW plus whatever.
* (1x or 2x) AP-AE-CoP plus whatever.
* (3x) assassins + orders
* (3x) ER Jaundiced spammer (that was a joke, but it still outdamages discord).
There's dozens upon dozens of other ways to kill faster than discordway; those are just the ones I've previously mentioned.

Quote:

What about minions? Or Death Nova?

These are not exclusive to discordway. Any team that has a minion bomber on it already has that damage. If I said, "my ROJway team has great DPS because of minions, death nova, and MoP," you'd probably find that pretty damn silly and ask "wtf does ROJway have to do with minions, death nova, and MoP?" Treating non-discord damage as something that justifies discordway is just as silly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Discoway is quick and easy to set up and quick and easy to use.

Heroes + hench use disco well, and its much less hassle than tooling up physicals and tailoring builds to areas. Even better if you block disco and bind the skills to keystrokes and blast it your self.

Its point, click, win. move one, point n click.

Splinter, SoH, orders, Mop, physicals ect tear up stuff much faster, but getting your heroes to do it right? much more hassle than priming for disco.

hence its used so much. Hell i use it some days when im watchin tv and on msn, its barely more ative than sabway

lazy mode.

This is precisely correct. Discordway is not nearly as good as some other options. But it is much, much easier. It has the highest effect :: effort ratio of any build available; and some people just can't keep from confusing that with actually being good.

MercenaryKnight · May 20, 2009, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

You can outperform Discord with just an Orders and 3 physical hench. (ie: two warriors and a ranger)

This saves you two hero slots for a MM and and Ether Healer (Prot). The final hench slot goes to a prot henchman.

If YOU are a Sin, Warrior or Paragon then you can run SY and take advantage of Orders as well.

Forgetting that hench hit slow, can be snared, melee= have to run into range and hit stuff and if you switch targets they switch to. Melee ai= bad for heroes and for hench. Comparing physicals to discordway in terms of hero usage is going to rely on ranged characters as they are the only ones who can really sustain dps.

If you buff physicals enough they can outdamage discordway, but it's spammable, quick recharge ranged damage that doesn't rely on a ton of skills to be effective. The versatility is something that makes it good. The ability to basically utilize any support skills you want or need and still do the damage is what makes it good. If you run 3-4 physicals those builds won't have hardly any support because they need their own skills to create the high damage needed to compare.

Also physicals can't do the same damage with 1 skill each. They require multiple skills (even say what 3-4) to do a lot of damage. While discord takes up 1 slot. So discordway could make up even more damage if they chose to. They could add in anything and everything to make the dps look better but their damage comes in 1 skill.

Would like to see a team of physicals outdamage discordway while having same amount of utility slots available in the entire party as a discord team.

Moloch Vein · May 20, 2009, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Physicals can use adrenaline-fueled shouts. Casters largely can not.

Physicals can use utility attacks including knockdowns, hard disruption, snares, degeneration and healing reduction. Casters largely can not.

Heroway Discord cannot increase its direct DPS through adding more skills. The reverse is true because all other compatible skills do way less damage than Discord, and the hero will then incorrectly sit casting those when he should be casting Discord. Discord necromancers need a substantial investment both in Soul Reaping and Death Magic.

There is really so much to say about this issue that I can't go through it all now.

AtomicMew · May 20, 2009, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

That's not my build, but I certainly concur with the theory behind it. As for "but, but, but, that's an 8-player build," you can replace any 6 of the party members, excluding the AP-MoP, with a hero substitute and still have waaaay more DPS than discordway manages.

Discordway is a hero build. Ofc you can do better with 8 players, that's pretty much "duhhhh." I have no interest in arguing about 8 player builds, and I suggest you get off that topic, since it is WAY off topic.

Quote:

Also, for the record, the builds I've cited elsewhere as better than discordway include:

* AP+MoP plus HB+WW plus whatever.
Sounds like a perfect discordway combination.
* (1x or 2x) AP-AE-CoP plus whatever.
AP... ah another discordway build.
* (3x) assassins + orders
Not a hero build, off topic.
* (3x) ER Jaundiced spammer (that was a joke, but it still outdamages discord).
No it does not. LOL, i can't tell if you are serious.

Quote:

There's dozens upon dozens of other ways to kill faster than discordway; those are just the ones I've previously mentioned.

None of the examples you've just stated further your argument in the least. I'm not sure what you're trying to say...?

Quote:

These are not exclusive to discordway. Any team that has a minion bomber on it already has that damage. If I said, "my ROJway team has great DPS because of minions, death nova, and MoP," you'd probably find that pretty damn silly and ask "wtf does ROJway have to do with minions, death nova, and MoP?" Treating non-discord damage as something that justifies discordway is just as silly.

You completely ignored what I just said.... Death nova and putrid bile take advantage of fast killing of single targets to do AoE damage. For example, putting putrid bile in RoJway is useless since everything else around the target dies at the same time anyway.

Quote:

This is precisely correct. Discordway is not nearly as good as some other options. But it is much, much easier. It has the highest effect :: effort ratio of any build available; and some people just can't keep from confusing that with actually being good.

That's not correct. I don't think you have ever seen discordway played correctly. Most of the time, yellow numbers FILL the screen because of AP/MoP. However, sometimes you just need to spike down single targets, which is FASTER than any kind of aggro management (balling + nuke, etc), considering it's possible to kill a single target every 1.5 seconds - that's better than any physical-way. Discordway + 1-3 ROJ heroway is the fastest option available for 2 player teams. A combination of AoE and single target spiking produces the best results.

Quote:

If you buff physicals enough they can outdamage discordway, but it's spammable, quick recharge ranged damage that doesn't rely on a ton of skills to be effective. The versatility is something that makes it good. The ability to basically utilize any support skills you want or need and still do the damage is what makes it good. If you run 3-4 physicals those builds won't have hardly any support because they need their own skills to create the high damage needed to compare.

Also physicals can't do the same damage with 1 skill each. They require multiple skills (even say what 3-4) to do a lot of damage. While discord takes up 1 slot. So discordway could make up even more damage if they chose to. They could add in anything and everything to make the dps look better but their damage comes in 1 skill.

Would like to see a team of physicals outdamage discordway while having same amount of utility slots available in the entire party as a discord team.

Mercenary Knight is exactly correct. Thank you for stating that so clearly

Carinae · May 20, 2009, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

If you buff physicals enough they can outdamage discordway, but it's spammable, quick recharge ranged damage that doesn't rely on a ton of skills to be effective. The versatility is something that makes it good. The ability to basically utilize any support skills you want or need and still do the damage is what makes it good. If you run 3-4 physicals those builds won't have hardly any support because they need their own skills to create the high damage needed to compare.

You're reaching. What support do you want that wouldn't be available otherwise? When I run physway I typically have:

3x Res Sig + 1 renewable res
3x condition removal (at least, maybe more depending on the Prot hench)
2x "big heals" (at least, maybe more depending on the Prot hench)
2x Aegis
2x Prot Spirit
2x hex removal (at least, maybe more depending on the Prot hench)
2x interrupts
2x KD
1x Spirit Bond (at least, maybe more depending on the Prot hench)
1x enchant removal (Rend or Gaze)
1x Minions (a full blown hero-MM)
1x Save Yourself
1x Orders + SoH
1x Charge! (teamwide IMS, including minions)

We also deal: Deep Wounds (me), Bleeding (MM), Poison (MM) and often Cripple (me or hench), depending on the loadout. I never run consumables, other than the occasional Candy Cane or Clover.

Did I mention that my ER Prot hero literally CANNOT run out of energy? Your argument that there are not enough support slots available is refuted, I believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

However, sometimes you just need to spike down single targets, which is FASTER than any kind of aggro management (balling + nuke, etc), considering it's possible to kill a single target every 1.5 seconds - that's better than any physical-way.

Running the above h/h team, my Sin deals 100hp per hit, while under a 33% IAS, and that doesn't count the AoE from DB/MS. And that's on Hard Mode.

Discordway is crap if a human physical player is available, and marginal otherwise.

Arctica · May 20, 2009, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Discordway is crap if a human physical player is available, and marginal otherwise.

hm, while it is true that discordway works much better with caster profs, I would not call it crap. Neither would I any other team build. Everyone runs what (s)he finds the funniest or the most effective and that's all.

Anyway, this whole thread has slipped WAY off-topic.

Jeydra · May 20, 2009, 08:24 AM // 08:24

To the people who say it is possible to outdamage Discordway, please post a specific build (skills, spec, etc) and I'll go out there and try it. Specifics are:

1. I'm an Elementalist primary who can run any build, including weird Daggers / Spear / Bow / Sword builds;
2. I have runed heroes who can run any build;
3. I'm not going to use consumables, Golden Eggs, etc;
4. I'm going to run with heroes + henchmen, not a second player.

Frankly tri-Necro or tri-RoJ builds are the most stable H/H PvE team builds I've found, but if anyone knows of a superior physicalway or something, I'm happy to try it out.

AtomicMew · May 20, 2009, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Running the above h/h team, my Sin deals 100hp per hit, while under a 33% IAS, and that doesn't count the AoE from DB/MS. And that's on Hard Mode.

First off, you are lying straight up. 100 per hit happens, but it is NOT the average. I know this because I can do addition, but also when I play vale sin with an RoJ support, even under buffed SoH + GDW against level 20's, the average is below, even taking into account every hit being an attack skill. In your case (SoH + orders) it's even less.

Quote:

Discordway is crap if a human physical player is available, and marginal otherwise.

You realize, being a melee player does not preclude you from running discordway... right?

And do you honestly think a melee player can outperform AP/MoP caller?

Xenomortis · May 20, 2009, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

You realize, being a melee player does not preclude you from running discordway... right?

And do you honestly think a melee player can outperform AP/MoP caller?

That wasn't the point being made.
And an AP-MoP caller doesn't go with a Discord team.

Zen1331 · May 20, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

To OP:

This is what I run with my necro and it does very good damage. Plus this is all in HM. In NM things die too fast.

[Mark of Pain][Assassin's Promise][You Move Like a Dwarf!][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support][Necrosis][Barbs][Enfeebling Blood][Parasitic Bond]

My hero's

MoW:
[Discord][Enfeebling Blood][Animate Shambling Horror][Aegis][Extinguish][Dwayna's Sorrow][Protective Spirit][Rebirth]

Olias:
[Discord][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood of the Master][Aegis][Extinguish][Remove Hex][Rebirth]

Livia:
[Discord][Putrid Bile][Vengeful Weapon][Weapon of Warding][Mend Body and Soul][Life][Ghostmirror Light][Flesh of My Flesh]

I don't carry [Finish Him!] in case my AP get's stripped, I'm able to help out my discord team by at least throwing Parasitc Bond and Enfeebling Blood to help cover the conditions for Discord and I can spam Necrosis, which is like discord-lite but you only need 1 condition or 1 hex to cause damage. And even at rank 8 Sunspear which is easy to attain you're doing decent armor ignoring damage at 86. I'll cast Barbs on bosses first before I cast my AP chain to help add more damage when my Vanguard Sin starts attacking. BTW, I've maxed my Ebon Vanguard and Norn ranks for maximum effect. When I bring Henchies, I'll take an interruptor, 2 healers and someone else that'll fill the need. You shouldn't need to worry about energy drain b/c of good old Soul Reaping

But it doesn't stop there...you should wiki the area you're going into and adjust your heroes accordingly. I sometimes will drop Livia and put in Gwen for a full Interruptor. I like to keep Aegis and Extinguish on 2 heros to keep an Aegis chain going and to remove nasty conditions you'll find yourself into in HM. And even if you're not going into an area that has no exploitable corpses, I find as long as I'm hexing and condition spreading w/ YMLaD or Enfeebling Blood, the heroes will spam Discord to their delight.

Livia and MoW are probably the most flexible of the bunch for me. I will sometimes add another Animate Minion skill for Livia and take out Vengeful Weapon and for MoW I might remove Shambling Horror and bring more protection skills. But I notice that Livia will first cast Putrid Bile (which helps) before she starts spamming Discord.

So in regards to the PVX build. I got the general idea and changed it to fit my needs and my style of play, I suggest you do the same and have fun. There is no 1 build to rule them all. I met up with another Necro player and we run a 6 discord spam team changing the Rit spirits so they don't cancel each other out and bodies exploding everywhere. The other necro human's skill bar was different from mine but we've been on a vanquishing tear lately so everything's fun!

MercenaryKnight · May 20, 2009, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

You're reaching. What support do you want that wouldn't be available otherwise? When I run physway I typically have:

3x Res Sig + 1 renewable res
3x condition removal (at least, maybe more depending on the Prot hench)
2x "big heals" (at least, maybe more depending on the Prot hench)
2x Aegis
2x Prot Spirit
2x hex removal (at least, maybe more depending on the Prot hench)
2x interrupts
2x KD
1x Spirit Bond (at least, maybe more depending on the Prot hench)
1x enchant removal (Rend or Gaze)
1x Minions (a full blown hero-MM)
1x Save Yourself
1x Orders + SoH
1x Charge! (teamwide IMS, including minions)

We also deal: Deep Wounds (me), Bleeding (MM), Poison (MM) and often Cripple (me or hench), depending on the loadout. I never run consumables, other than the occasional Candy Cane or Clover.

Did I mention that my ER Prot hero literally CANNOT run out of energy? Your argument that there are not enough support slots available is refuted, I believe.

Running the above h/h team, my Sin deals 100hp per hit, while under a 33% IAS, and that doesn't count the AoE from DB/MS. And that's on Hard Mode.

Discordway is crap if a human physical player is available, and marginal otherwise.

Even if your doing 100 damage per hit that's to 1 target. Even if your running db/ms that's not guaranteed to hit more than one. Your spiking down 1 target at a time just like discordway. You can't say that your going to hit multiple enemies all the time. Hero/Hench follow who your attacking, resulting in a similar effect to discordway. Spiking 1 enemy down at a time is what happens.

What is stopping you from using a physical character with discordway? You can run a db/ms assassin with discordway and just have heroes cast hexes/ conditions. You can bring that high damage with the build and add in utilities of a form of orders/ splinter weapon just the same. There is no solid build required for discordway. Thus the whole point of it. If you complain that discordway kills people before you can get to them and use your full dps chain then wouldn't that prove that melees require more effort to kill slower because of moving from enemy to enemy.

Casters can attack instantly, physicals will chase whatever you call. Good luck trying to spread conditions/ damage and hope that your physicals kill one while your focusing on the next. If henchman could run physical melee builds better people would focus on that. But they don't.

Discord spikes quickly, requires no up close movement and heroes can use it effectively. I have yet to see a hero/hench team entirely made of physicals that can kill the same speed in most areas.

Note here is the disclaimer. It can happen that a physical only hero/ hench team can beat some areas quickly. But when places have block stances, slows, snares, whatever it is they only affect melee physicals and not discord. That is why ranged is prefer among hero/hench ai.

If hero/hench ai was better I myself would run more physical based teams. They would surpass discordway in every way. In real human groups you can out perform with physicals with pve skills. Hands down physical is better for real groups. But hero/hench requires less "this can do this dps under optimal efficiency" and more realizing that the ai is lacking in melee physicals and certain builds.

Carinae · May 20, 2009, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

First off, you are lying straight up. 100 per hit happens, but it is NOT the average. I know this because I can do addition, but also when I play vale sin with an RoJ support, even under buffed SoH + GDW against level 20's, the average is below, even taking into account every hit being an attack skill. In your case (SoH + orders) it's even less.

No, I'm not. Work on your maths.

Orders = 14
SoH = 18
DB = 43 (MS = 33)

Right there ALONE that's 65-75 armor-ignoring damage per hit. It does not figure in a Critical Hit. That does not figure in Asura Scan, or the base damage from the daggers, or the Deep Wound I dealt on my offhand hit. Nor does it figure in the AoE from DB.

Nor does it figure in AP/MoP/Barbs if I have another human.

Nor does it figure in GDW/BUH.

If I'm with another human who can GDW me, then it's obnoxious damage. While all that's happening, I'm also running a continuous SY.....and that's all from my character alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

And do you honestly think a melee player can outperform AP/MoP caller?

How good is that AP/MoP without me triggering them?

And yes, a good Sin or Warrior has comparable direct-damage to AP/MoP, in addition to triggering aforementioned skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Even if your doing 100 damage per hit that's to 1 target. Even if your running db/ms that's not guaranteed to hit more than one. Your spiking down 1 target at a time just like discordway. You can't say that your going to hit multiple enemies all the time. Hero/Hench follow who your attacking, resulting in a similar effect to discordway. Spiking 1 enemy down at a time is what happens.

The effect is sometimes similar, sure, but you are forgetting something.

I'm throwing SY.

This makes enemies converge on ME, because even at 95 armor, I'm the lowest in the party. This makes DB/MS much more effective, as well as letting the healers focus on me alone, more or less.

Sure, if there's an AP/MoP/Barbs player available that makes things even better. Approximately doubles the damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

What is stopping you from using a physical character with discordway? You can run a db/ms assassin with discordway and just have heroes cast hexes/ conditions. You can bring that high damage with the build and add in utilities of a form of orders/ splinter weapon just the same. There is no solid build required for discordway.

Granted, but it's more awkward to run Orders+SoH that way. You also run the risk of trying to do too much, and not doing anything well enough. But, yea, you can do that.

Given the current AI bugs, I think I'd rather run Physical+RoJ than Physical+Discord, though.

AtomicMew · May 21, 2009, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

No, I'm not. Work on your maths.

Orders = 14
SoH = 18
DB = 43 (MS = 33)

Right there ALONE that's 65-75 armor-ignoring damage per hit. It does not figure in a Critical Hit. That does not figure in Asura Scan, or the base damage from the daggers, or the Deep Wound I dealt on my offhand hit. Nor does it figure in the AoE from DB.

Nor does it figure in AP/MoP/Barbs if I have another human.

Nor does it figure in GDW/BUH.

Let me quote you:
Running the above h/h team, my Sin deals 100hp per hit, while under a 33% IAS, and that doesn't count the AoE from DB/MS.

Nowhere do you state barbs or Asura Scan anywhere in your post. Nowhere do you state running 2 man heroway. In fact you explicitly stated running H/H.

Stop changing the point ex post facto, I think anyone can see how flimsy your argument has now become. Btw, if you bother to cast asura scan on every foe, I'm just going to LOL.

Quote:

How good is that AP/MoP without me triggering them?

Minions say hi.

Quote:

And yes, a good Sin or Warrior has comparable direct-damage to AP/MoP, in addition to triggering aforementioned skills.

Let's say you have 15 minons (conservative) each hit once. You just did 600+ damage in 1.75 seconds exactly. It takes you more time to even just run up to your target.

Quote:

I'm throwing SY.This makes enemies converge on ME, because even at 95 armor, I'm the lowest in the party. This makes DB/MS much more effective, as well as letting the healers focus on me alone, more or less.

AGAIN, running a physical does not preclude you from running discordway. Not that SY! matters most of the time since you have minions.

Quote:

Sure, if there's an AP/MoP/Barbs player available that makes things even better. Approximately doubles the damage.

AGAIN, you are forgetting about minions.

Your entire argument is based on not having minions, which makes it pretty clear that you have not seen discordway or really, even anyplace with decent corpses, run properly.

If not me, listen to Mercenary Knight, as he states things very clearly.

Chthon · May 21, 2009, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Discordway is a hero build. Ofc you can do better with 8 players, that's pretty much "duhhhh." I have no interest in arguing about 8 player builds, and I suggest you get off that topic, since it is WAY off topic.

Read my post again. I said you CAN swap 6 of those builds for hero substitutes and still do far better than discord.

Quote:

* AP+MoP plus HB+WW plus whatever.[/I]
Sounds like a perfect discordway combination.

No it doesn't. The discord heroes will kill your pain focus before you've gotten all the damage out of MoP. It's completely 100% idiotic to run discord on top of MoP.

Quote:

* (1x or 2x) AP-AE-CoP plus whatever.
AP... ah another discordway build.

Same thing. Discord will kill your pain focus early. Idiotic.

Quote:

* (3x) assassins + orders
Not a hero build, off topic.

Last time I checked, heros can run both orders and GFS+WS+DB just fine. THe player can pick any of the 4 builds s/he wants and leave the other 3 to heroes.

Quote:

* (3x) ER Jaundiced spammer (that was a joke, but it still outdamages discord).
No it does not. LOL, i can't tell if you are serious.

At 12 blood, Jaundiced Gaze + Dark Pact is 92/3.5 sec. You need to spec 10 death to match that with discord -- which you will do on your discord minion bomber, but probably not anything that uses its secondary.

For the record, ER Jaundiced spam is a silly build, no doubt. Nonetheless, it keeps up with discord for damage.

Quote:

That's not correct. I don't think you have ever seen discordway played correctly. Most of the time, yellow numbers FILL the screen because of AP/MoP.

Why do you continue to argue the discordway is great on the basis of every aspect of your variant on the build other than discord itself? "Blah blah blah AP+MoP, blah blah blah RoJ, blah blah blah Putrid Bile..." All of these skills (a) are not discord, and (b) can be used more effectively in other builds.

(Also, I find it highly ironic that you are arguing how best to run AP+MoP against the person who invented AP+MoP (Moloch). Trust me, he knows far, far better than you how to get mileage out of the combo.)

I'm going to leave this conversation now. It's becoming clear to me that no matter how many people give you a well-reasoned explanation why other builds seriously outperform discordway (and you've already seen the 4 most intelligent posters in the necro forum do so), you will never understand. So there's no point in trying to convince you that you're wrong. At this point, any moderately intelligent reader of this thread has seen enough to understand why discordway is (nice and easy, but) subpar. So there is no need to stick around and refute your position for their benefit. Thus, I'm done here.

Calista Blackblood · May 21, 2009, 05:30 AM // 05:30

The thread is also done.The OP's questions were answered waay back on the first page so no real need for this handbag swing-fest.