Curse

Moloch Vein · Apr 03, 2009, 09:52 AM // 09:52

This is a topic that seems to keep floating up on this forum whenever there is a discussion about hexes. I think I may be partially responsible for it since I've been hammering this point for a long time now without thoroughly explaining it. This is an attempt to remedy that situation and hopefully to round up discussion into one thread.

In order to lay some ground rules for this discussion it is first necessary to define the terms. What is a reactive hex, and what is a proactive one?

A reactive hex is a spell that reacts to what the enemy is doing. A proactive hex is one that directly makes the enemy worse off, either by damaging it or by making it harder to defend from damage, or one which rewards you for doing something. A type example of a reactive hex is Empathy, which deals damage as a foe attacks. A type example of a proactive hex is Barbs, which deals damage when you attack.

Degeneration hexes, like Suffering, are proactive hexes. It doesn't matter if the foe moves, acts or anything, he will still lose health. Icy Veins is a proactive hex - it deals direct damage, and deals direct damage when the foe dies. As you see, the mere fact that a hex is proactive doesn't necessarily make it good.

Sometimes the line is blurry. An example is Defile Defenses. Sure, it requires the enemy to block, but it is also triggered on your attack. DMS hexes are another example. They are only in effect when the enemy moves, but they also make him unable to move with any speed, which can pin him in a pain focus.

In fact, many proactive hexes are exceedingly weak in PvE. Take Malaise - when was the last time that entered your bar? Also a reactive hex doesn't need to be bad. Reckless Haste is an example of an excellent reactive hex, even after all its nerfs.

So why is it that we keep stating that reactive hexing sucks? Well, the main reason is that reactive hexing doesn't encourage you to become a better player or to improve your team.

One key element in any successful PvE team configuration is synergy. The sum of the parts being greater than the parts itself; party members working together to achieve a common goal. Reactive hexing does not synergize with your team, at any level. A Spiteful Spirit necromancer doesn't reward the other team members for being good at their job, in any fashion. His damage output does not multiply with his team's skill and numbers.

With minor variations this holds true for all reactive hexes - one exception would be Price of Failure synergizing with your monk's Aegis. With no variation it holds true for all straight reactive attack hexes, which rely on your opponent's actions to produce damage - they actually get worse as your team gets better. The only exception is farming with tanks.

The fastest way to kill an enemy is simply to hammer it into the ground. Daze it, slam it, throw a dozen spears at it. Spiteful Spirit, Backfire, Empathy, Visions of Regret... they all are less than optimal skills for this job - not to mention they all cast slow or very slow. A foe won't attack when he's on his back, nor will he attack enough for it to matter until he's dead.

Some people try to counter this by arguing for "putting the hex on an off-target". However, they fail to understand that a good team attacks an enemy for a reason, that reason being that this is the particular foe they want dead. right. now. What these people are doing is essentially relegating the necromancer to the role of clean-up crew. As a contrast, the proactive hexer actively creates the pain foci wherever he sees fit. He does not leave it to the foes which of their own number they care to kill the sooner.

The other part of it is that as a matter of fact, the optimal damage output of skills like Barbs and Mark of Pain is far, far higher than any produced by a reactive hex, with the possible exception of the PvE skill Pain Inverter - and note that this is a reactive hex in the worst sense - it relies on your own team taking damage! However, this is the least consideration. The previous points hold far more value.

Reactive hexing doesn't suck for most people, because most people aren't good enough players. They lack the skills, the templates and the team coordination required to score fast kills against challenging content. Their fellow players aren't viewed as their greatest assets; the stupid enemies are. This will only take you so far.

Finally, for the love of God, I'm not advocating that you take a bar just packing it shock full of proactive attack spells and expect it to do the trick. Yes, you do need your Reckless Haste, or your Enfeebling Blood, or your Shadow of Fear. But you're a curser. You're an offensive caster, and the person on your team capable of inflicting the most damage on the enemy. Your damage output shouldn't go down the drain just because there's only one foe still standing, or because someone just quaked the entire mob. You need proactive attack spells.

Besides, it's way more macho.

riktw · Apr 03, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

hexes like Visions of regret an backfire are nice.
especialy in RA and TA
if you cast them on a monk he can do 3 things.

remove them, with any hex removal with an casting time of 1 sec or more he will be interrupted

just keep casting and get loads of damage.

do nothing.
so unless you have holy veil or PnH you have a problem.
and when the monk is dead or wont cast stuff the hammer pounding will be a lot faster.

PvE ok, a lot of them are lame, but VoR still is nice then

Redvex · Apr 03, 2009, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Feast of corruption is one that's need a buff to play proactive curser.

Moloch Vein · Apr 03, 2009, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Even if FoC got buffed to better than its original state it would still be inferior to Assassin's Promise.

Redvex · Apr 03, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Even if FoC got buffed to better than its original state it would still be inferior to Assassin's Promise.

Yes but in this case it's not AP fault.
The problem is pve ebon and norn skills.
Till the release of nightfall i enjoied more than after that.
Now i spend all my gw time in pre.
If you don't understand i'm full agree with you.

Moloch Vein · Apr 03, 2009, 11:34 AM // 11:34

I understand. However even if no PvE skills existed, AP would be superior to a reverted FoC for a Curses necromancer.

Redvex · Apr 03, 2009, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I understand. However even if no PvE skills existed, AP would be superior to a reverted FoC for a Curses necromancer.

Why? Ap is triggered when a target die and it is used to recharge the powerful pve skills. Without the powerful pve skills why i need AP?
Energy management? necro have the best primary attribute for that.

In any case i would know how you change FoC and some elite curse spells to make those skills more effective.

Moloch Vein · Apr 03, 2009, 11:41 AM // 11:41

You need it for Mark of Pain and Rigor Mortis.

Here, let me show you:

[build prof=N/A curse=12+1+1 soulr=10+1 deadl=8][assassin's promise][mark of pain][barbs][rigor mortis][reckless haste][rend enchantments][optional][optional][/build]

Optionals: Curses wells, Desecrate/Defile Enchantments

Phe Belladona · Apr 03, 2009, 11:42 AM // 11:42

im sorry but the "reactive hex" thing kinda goes out the window in PvE because the choice is removed (except with backfire, they will stop casting before death) enemies will cast, attack and just plain spam through w/e you put on them.

lets look at VoR its an AoE damage spell that does excellent damage to a bunched group and doesnt cause scatter while priming CoP, i dont care if the enemy get to use skills because they do very little to my team set up. if i use VoR on the group and interupt the ele then im dealing armour ignoring damage and defending the only threat, also only a few enemies in the game require this attention and also prot spirit and spreading out is good.

another PvE reactive hex maybe Pain Inverter this weapon coupled with a minion master insta kills any threatening target, wurms in frostmaws are particularly amusing. is this a bad skill too? can you kill a target quicker than a 1 second cast?

hell even empathy in areas with barrage/cyclone axe deals 250-300 armour ignoring damage in 1 attack, still with our trusty MM.

btw i think i may have pointed out strong synergy between the reactive hexes and team set up through proper prot skills and minon master and also killing one target (or more SS, VoR) while you and your team deal with another.

also just incase you forgot PvE is EASY!!!!!!!! you can take w/e and hexing is easy and perfectly efficient if you're not with a full team of ppl. when pve ppl act all snobby about what ppl take something funny has happened. i have plenty pve experience and have done it all in HM too just incase you were worried.

Redvex · Apr 03, 2009, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

You need it for Mark of Pain and Rigor Mortis.

Here, let me show you:

[build prof=N/A curse=12+1+1 soulr=10+1 deadl=8][assassin's promise][mark of pain][barbs][rigor mortis][reckless haste][rend enchantments][optional][optional][/build]

Optionals: Curses wells, Desecrate/Defile Enchantments

O i forgot mark of pain.
Same as above
How do you change FoC or some other elite curse to make it more effective (not overpowered as roj).

The worst thing now is that a monk have the better offensive elite for a caster.
Neither elementalist, necro and mesmer have a similar elite.
And a monk suppose to be a defensive caster.

Moloch Vein · Apr 03, 2009, 11:54 AM // 11:54

First of all, I'm not discussing tank-n-spank here. I'm not discussing farming scenarios. Second:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

lets look at VoR its an AoE damage spell that does excellent damage to a bunched group and doesnt cause scatter while priming CoP, i dont care if the enemy get to use skills because they do very little to my team set up.

Visions is on a 20 second recharge. If you don't care if the enemy uses skills, clearly he has no threatening skills, which means you aren't playing content that matters.

Quote:

another PvE reactive hex maybe Pain Inverter this weapon coupled with a minion master insta kills any threatening target, wurms in frostmaws are particularly amusing. is this a bad skill too? can you kill a target quicker than a 1 second cast?

Yes, you can do that, and then all your minions are dead for the next one. I mean, it sure is nice to spend 15 bloody seconds to raise a bone minion army only to feed it to a monster, right? This is a pretty good illlustration of the problem, rather than the solution.

Quote:

hell even empathy in areas with barrage/cyclone axe deals 250-300 armour ignoring damage in 1 attack, still with our trusty MM.

Well, since we are obviously discussing "clumped up" scenarios, try to beat the five thousand hit points of damage from a Hundred Blades warrior hitting a Mark of Pain focus.

Quote:

btw i think i may have pointed out strong synergy between the reactive hexes and team set up through proper prot skills and minon master and also killing one target (or more SS, VoR) while you and your team deal with another.

You misunderstand the meaning of synergy. These skills do not synergize since they don't improve each other - they don't create anything greater than the sum of their parts.

I'd like to add something here, Belladonna, and I'd really like you to listen, because this is vital.

First the meaning of "synergy". It goes like this: I create an effect, you create an effect, and then the effects create something bigger together. We synergize. Examples:

I create a bone fiend. You shout "Go for the eyes!" Both you and my bone fiend hits harder. You get more energy because you have a bone fiend as your pal, not just me.
I use Barbs. I attack the target. You attack the target too. I wouldn't create much damage. When you too attack, maybe under an IAS, we do more damage. We synergize.

Second, and at least as important: your examples are all situational. Can Empathy create damage? Of course it can! So can SS! Clump up all the Aatxes in the chamber, cast Spiteful, and the damage is godly. Throw Empathy on a Barrage ranger, and again, the damage is great. But it's all up to the enemy.

When you go with your friends and cast Barbs on a target, provided you can make it stick (not that hard), the damage is ALWAYS godly.

That's what makes this type of build superior. It doesn't rely on your enemies, it relies on your friends.

Zidane Ortef · Apr 03, 2009, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

You misunderstand the meaning of synergy. These skills do not synergize since they don't improve each other - they don't create anything greater than the sum of their parts.

Synergy- a mutually advantageous conjunction or compatibility of distinct business participants or elements

You don't understand the full meaning of Synergy Moloch Synergy is just more then thing +thing = greater thing, it's its the ability to conform using everything you have as one together to give an advantage. Certain things work well together as two separate items but doesn't increase the function of each other.

Edit after reading message that was posted before while I was typing.

To me this thread seems a bit pointless there is nothing wrong with using hexes that depend on the enemy to work its just how and when they are used.

Things attack and use spells that's the whole point of a skill bar. In PvP Reactive hexes are iffy depending on what PvP aspect you are in and the intelligence of the player you are against. I have used Empathy, Backfire,VoR, and Insidious Parasite on many not so smart players they just Attack/Cast themselves to death.

In the sole aspect of PvE, there is no right or wrong AI is set to attack and cast spells and they do this without hesitation and without thinking about what hexes are applied to them. If you use a reactive hex on a target say Empathy on a Jade Brotherhood Knight he's not gonna say hey that's Empathy maybe I should run a round and kite for a bit.

PvP all depend on what skill level of opponents you are facing.

PvE is all game AI is to dumb to figure out what they have on them and do what best for them to stay alive and prolong a fight.

Moloch Vein · Apr 03, 2009, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zidane Ortef

PvP all depend on what skill level of opponents you are facing.

PvE is all game AI is to dumb to figure out what they have on them and do what best for them to stay alive and prolong a fight.

Nobody is disputing this, and this is actually not what the thread is about at all.

As for the part about a "mutually advantageous conjunction or compatibility of distinct business participants or elements"... define "advantageous" and "compatibility" and you might understand what I'm getting at.

Ratson Itamar · Apr 03, 2009, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Great posts Moloch. Clearly you're talking about PvE and not PvP so I will only address that aspect of GW.

There're 5 points that through them you can predict a victory:
1. Knowing when to fight and when not to fight.
2. Understanding how to fight accordingly to the enemy's strength.
3. Focusing your entire party on one key target.
4. Preparing and adjusting your builds before entering the zone and waiting for a bit before engaging the mob.
5. Having good players without the need of a leader to interfere with they're doing.

If you don't take your enemies into consideration but rely on your party then you have 50% to lose or win, but if you take advantage of the monsters' AI and rely on your party then you will win every fight with ease.

And as a side not, MoP and Barbs are strong only if you're coordinated. I'd rather take reactive hexes in a pug and proactive hexes in a coordinated team or when I'm H/Hing.

Shursh · Apr 03, 2009, 01:43 PM // 13:43

thank you for posting this moloch - and for the record, i fully agree with you.

i used reactive hexing for a LONG time, and only in the past few months have i switched to proactive hexing and it has definitely made me a better, smarter player.

if you guys haven't tried it yet, load the build moloch posted above and give it a try - i think you will see the difference immediately.

MagmaRed · Apr 03, 2009, 02:08 PM // 14:08

I agree with that you said, but not completely. You are basically saying that skills Anet introduced into the game are not worth using. It is about play style more than what is actually effective. I have played on teams in PvE that used Reactive Hexes that did extremely well, even in elite missions like The Deep and UW. I have also played on PvE teams that did extremely well with Proactive Hexes in those same areas.

And a note about your comment that skills like SS, Empathy, Backfire, etc. allow the monsters to still deal damage to you. There are ways other than knockdown that prevent their damage. Toss SS, VoR, Empathy, etc. on melee monsters and then toss on some Blinding Surge.

In a sense, I get the impression you are telling us YOUR playstyle is the only one worth using. Knockdowns and AP hexing (which is effective). I'd prefer to play well and with builds I enjoy.

upier · Apr 03, 2009, 02:53 PM // 14:53

I find that one of the most simple but spot-on posts on this subject was made by Jay yesterday:

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Punishment is fine and has its place but its not the best way, and really shouldnt be used as the main/only form of damage

Controling the rate of damage is better than letting the mobs control the rate of damage they take.

Example, Ap+mop or Ap+cop let YOU and your party control the damage were as SS and VOR lets the MOBS control the rate of damage they take due to only taking the damage when they attack/use skills..even if they do retardedly spam thru them.

Id take The control thanks :P

Having said that, punishment Is fine if you already have enough Brute force controlled damage, mitigation(weakness/blinds ect) and backline.

Simple and straight to the point.

Phe Belladona · Apr 03, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

you seem to have misunderstood.

VoR triggers on EVERY skill it doesnt trigger on "threatening skills", pve mobs spam a lot of rubbish.

minion masters churn out minions faster than you can imagine in PvE there are corspes everywhere, saying "oh noes you need to recreate minions" is pointless cause the bot will be using on recharge anyway, i use jagged usually too. death nova is excellent and also technically reactive since it would require enemy in range and killing minion.

your comparing empathy to 100blades MoP makes no sense, emapthy requires your minions to ball up which will pretty always be true, 100blades MoP combo (tho very powerful) requires the enemies to ball up and as i quote "I'm not discussing tank-n-spank here". (its also harder to pull off without more humans as hero AI for melee is a bit shite at times)

i understand synergy ^^ do you?

i have no doubt your way of playing is efficient enough, but to be honest you seem to think its the only efficient way. a lot of ppl H/H and reactive hexes work well as the bots dont spread their attention to killing several dangerous targets at once as humans can. while the reactive hex can kill target 1 while you target and kill something else with the same speed that you normally would. fire and forget hexes and defenses have been recognised powers in GW since day 1.

Gill Halendt · Apr 03, 2009, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

In a sense, I get the impression you are telling us YOUR playstyle is the only one worth using. Knockdowns and AP hexing (which is effective). I'd prefer to play well and with builds I enjoy.

Agree. Couldn't say it better myself.

I never really liked threads trying to demonstrate that random things in the game supposedly "suck" and then consequently deduce that people relying on them aren't good enough.

REDdelver · Apr 03, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Im not going to take time to say why i disagree with you mostly, and agree with you partly.

But i will say this.

Theres a huge lesson to be learned here. Just like a lot of times in life, taking information(knowledge) and putting into ones theory/argument/thoughts about something takes more than just regurgitating the information(facts) through pen-n-paper, email, threads, newspaper, person-2-person, etc. Its just as important to present your argument in a respectful manner when you talk about other people as it is to have the correct information. Attitude.

The main turn off about your thinking is how you present your information. You make yourself look like you are smarter than everyone else who uses these "reactve" skills as apposed to your way. This seems to be more or less a thread essentially about SABWAY vs DISCORDway. I know you didnt say anything about discord, but "essentially" this is how it come across.

Quote:

Reactive hexing doesn't suck for most people, because most people aren't good enough players.

Quote:

So why is it that we keep stating that reactive hexing sucks? Well, the main reason is that reactive hexing doesn't encourage you to become a better player or to improve your team.

Quote:

Why reactive hexing sucks.

You seem to belittle people you dont even know for using reactive skills. You presume that people who use these skills arent as good as you. Its extremely arrogant.

If you just would have started by saying. Here's why i like to use more "proactive skills" as apposed to "reactive skills." If you wouldnt have said anything about "smarter player/better play/sucks", the reaction to your thread would have been a lot different.

Its great to have your own opinion, but 1st make sure you have the facts. But just important is your presentation.