Curse

Grim Lich · Mar 19, 2010, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Signet of Suffering. That needs to be changed pronto.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 19, 2010, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Ignoring the fact that this thread is all sarcasm that no one is getting....

Absolutely nothing. Necros are powerful enough as it :P

Swahnee · Mar 19, 2010, 09:35 PM // 21:35

As someone said before, the problem is not inside necros, it's inside hard mode and elite areas with lvl 28 monsters instead. Since monsters' armor increases with their level, it's obvious that in the endgame areas everyone would bring armor-ignoring damage, even in nm, thus the overpowered-ness (what an ugly word o.O) of necros.

For similar reasons, the problem isn't inside soul reaping, but it's inside the massive deaths available (and also minion bombing), provided by the power of those same necros (sab, discord..). In PvP soul reaping isn't overpowered at all.

Shadowmere · Mar 20, 2010, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Lich

Signet of Suffering. That needs to be changed pronto.

Despite all the sarcasm in the topic that one really could use a rework. It should imo be changed into essentially a signet version of Discord or Feast of Corruption, standard signet tradeoffs apply and then give secondary/primary mesmers some synergy with it.

Still there are other professions that need buffs a lot more than necros, that goes without saying though, necros have a near monopoly on PvE

9tails · Mar 22, 2010, 03:36 AM // 03:36

There's not enough tears in this thread. Can we import some more assassins and/or monks to provide a bigger supply of QQ?

Grim Lich · Mar 24, 2010, 03:07 PM // 15:07

I think what really needs to be done, besides SoS:

Double the amount of minions we can summon. I mean I always cap at 11. We should have more... it would be more...balanced.

TalanRoarer · Mar 24, 2010, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Lich

Double the amount of minions we can summon. I mean I always cap at 11. We should have more... it would be more...balanced.

Are you serious?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Absolutely nothing. Necros are powerful enough as it :P

That.

Neo Atomisk · Mar 24, 2010, 05:02 PM // 17:02

The most overpowered class in PvE, getting a buff?
[sarcasm]yea, why don't we buff discord to 0c, 1e, 0r[/sarcasm]

PaulVanK · Mar 26, 2010, 01:39 PM // 13:39

The most OVERPOWERED class in PVE is Rit...
Rits now deal shtloads of dmg, couse of ~6-7 spirits + painful bond...
SS needs balled foes to do some serious dmg.
And about buffing skills I think that some REALLY need good buffs... some elite's are not even used in PVE... You see almost only SS and MM :P I would like to bomb my minions, but it's hard like hell... they could do something about it

(dunno, give us list of minions or something).

Neo Atomisk · Mar 26, 2010, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Rits can only effectively be used by PCs, whereas triple necro heroes are the current meta for all h/h. I'd like to see something other than discord, sab, and sway.

not to mention that in hard mode, spirit damage generally hits the fan, while curses remains largely armor ignoring... ever seen barbs on a target being hit by 20 minions?

Xenomortis · Mar 26, 2010, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

not to mention that in hard mode, spirit damage generally hits the fan, while curses remains largely armor ignoring... ever seen barbs on a target being hit by 20 minions?

Spirit damage is armour ignoring. Spirit spam builds are very strong in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulVanK

And about buffing skills I think that some REALLY need good buffs... some elite's are not even used in PVE... You see almost only SS and MM :P I would like to bomb my minions, but it's hard like hell... they could do something about it

(dunno, give us list of minions or something).

No. Necromancers are the most powerful offensive casters in PvE. Assassin's Promise is perhaps the strongest elite for a Necromancer to use and only Order of Undeath can contend or exceed it.
SS is nothing in comparison when used with playing with strong teams and leaves a lot to be desired when H/Hing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulVanK

The most OVERPOWERED class in PVE is Rit...

Assassins are. When it comes to damage it's hard to beat physicals and only a few select caster builds can do it (AP-MoP, OoU and Spirit Spam). However the Assassin can also receive a large number of very strong physical buffs (SoH, Orders, Splinter/GDW (depending on team)) and they can bring one of the (if not the most) single most powerful defensive skills in the game - "Save Yourselves!".
What's more is that you can have several physicals in your team with the same builds and they can all be effective whereas you can only have 1 Spirit Spammer, 1 AP-MoP caller and 1 MM.
In a H/H setting you can have hero MMs and Spirit Spammers so physicals win there too.

Daesu · Mar 26, 2010, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Assassins are. When it comes to damage it's hard to beat physicals and only a few select caster builds can do it (AP-MoP, OoU and Spirit Spam). However the Assassin can also receive a large number of very strong physical buffs (SoH, Orders, Splinter/GDW (depending on team)) and they can bring one of the (if not the most) single most powerful defensive skills in the game - "Save Yourselves!".
What's more is that you can have several physicals in your team with the same builds and they can all be effective whereas you can only have 1 Spirit Spammer, 1 AP-MoP caller and 1 MM.
In a H/H setting you can have hero MMs and Spirit Spammers so physicals win there too.

Agree with all your other points but I would still say rits are the most overpowered in pve now. Assassins can deal insane amount of damage, but not on their own, some people in the team have to bring all these buffs. Besides they are balanced with a weaker armor compared to warriors.

Rits, on the other hand, have BOTH offense and defense all on their own so much so that their spirit spamming solo farming build doesnt even need to look much different from their regular pve build. You can also get synergy from having more than 1 rit in the team if the team build is well planned.

Xenomortis · Mar 26, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Agree with all your other points but I would still say rits are the most overpowered in pve now. Assassins can deal insane amount of damage, but not on their own, some people in the team have to bring all these buffs. Besides they are balanced with a weaker armor compared to warriors.

Generally I only look at team builds. Farming is something I pretty much spit on and then ignore.
In HM PvE, armour isn't too important (a sin getting to ~85-90 armour isn't hard anyway) when you have Prot Spirit. All the armour does is help you live a little bit longer when PS falls. It hardly balances them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Rits, on the other hand, have BOTH offense and defense all on their own so much so that their spirit spamming solo farming build doesnt even need to look much different from their regular pve build. You can also get synergy from having more than 1 rit in the team if the team build is well planned.

An offensive spirit spammer has defense in the same way my OoU MM has defense (actually he has less defense than my MM). All the offensive guy provides is 6-8 alternative targets that can die very quickly (granted, that is strong).
You can have more than one rit in the team, but the second rit is not going to be able to go all out offense (if he tries he'll be strictly weaker than the first). He needs to be defensive and the rits defensive options are weaker than their offensive options. Although with the new Soul Twisting I may eat that statement if I ever get round to trying it out.

I suppose one of the biggest imbalances on the Rit comes from the fact that Guild Wars is "balanced" on physicals being the real damage dealers. Rits have made a bit of a mess on that.

Necromas · Mar 26, 2010, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Would be kind of cool to see blood nuke more useful in PvE, they're kind of going that direction with ravenous gaze and the ability to spread conditions more but ultimately blood magic still won't be much more than optional slots for curses and death magic builds.

Daesu · Mar 30, 2010, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You can have more than one rit in the team, but the second rit is not going to be able to go all out offense (if he tries he'll be strictly weaker than the first). He needs to be defensive and the rits defensive options are weaker than their offensive options. Although with the new Soul Twisting I may eat that statement if I ever get round to trying it out.

The second rit does not need to be defensive because offensive spirits are already strong enough to tank for you. That is how strong a primary rit's spirits are:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

...if you run into problems, you always have a fallback (you can lay spirits before aggro).

Even without the new Soul Twisting, you can still eat your own statement.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/1...html?p=5097395

Xenomortis · Mar 30, 2010, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The second rit does not need to be defensive because offensive spirits are already strong enough to tank for you. That is how strong a primary rit's spirits are:

1st Rit:
Signet of Spirits, Vampirism, Bloodsong, Pain, Anguish, Painful Bond, Armour of Unfeeling, Summon Spirits.

2nd Rit:
The remains of the Communing spirits that deal damage + SoGM?

The only way the two compare is if you split the spirits up more evenly - give the SoS rit SoS and Bloodsong only (maybe Vampirism) and put all the Communing stuff on the Communing Rit then fill out the SoS bar with support (which is a much more sensible option). Either way with 2 rits you don't get twice the offensive power of one SoS rit.

With the above (not so clever) setup, the 2nd Rit will invariably run defensive stuff since there are only 3 remaining Comm spirits that deal damage (Disenchantment, Dissonance and Shadowsong). By splitting up the spirits someone is going to eventually run support and the only non-defensive support a Channeling guy can give is Splinter Weapon and Ancestor's Rage.

My point is that running 2 Rits will not be ineffective, but they don't stack as cleanly as Assassins do. Running 2 Rits will provide more power than 1 Rit, but it's not twice the power of the one Rit. Physicals just don't have that overlap problem.

Necromas · Mar 30, 2010, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

1st Rit:
Signet of Spirits, Vampirism, Bloodsong, Pain, Anguish, Painful Bond, Armour of Unfeeling, Summon Spirits.

2nd Rit:
The remains of the Communing spirits that deal damage + SoGM?

1st Rit:
Pump channeling and restoration with 2 superior runes (why 2? because spirit spammers don't get aggro)

Signet of Spirits, Vampirism, Bloodsong, Painful Bond, Spiritleech Aura, Summon Spirits, 2 Free Slots (I like spirit siphon and great dwarf weapon).

Spiritleech aura will make bloodsong and vampirism do over 40 damage a hit because it stacks with their existing lifestealing.

With 15 channeling 15 resto, 80-130 consistant armor ignoring DPS depending on how many of the enemies being hit have painful bond on them.

2nd Rit:
Pump communing and use a superior communing rune, maybe a second superior in spawning power or resto.

Signet of Ghostly Might, Anguish, Pain, Disenchantment, Shadowsong, Boon of Creation (or other e-management), Summon Spirits, Free Slot

With 16 communing, 101-185 consistent armor ignoring DPS depending on how many enemies have painful bond on. Plus removes enchantments and causes blindness on random enemies. Harder to keep spirits up because of energy.

Basically because of painful bond, they synergize well (or at least enough to make up for the limitation of not being able to have overlap) because it means the communing rit can have more and tougher spirits, and more energy because he doesn't have to worry about investing any attribute points or skill slots into channeling.

Compare to a single rit.

15 channeling, 15 communing.
Signet of Spirits, Vampirism, Bloodsong, Painful Bond, Pain, Anguish, Spirit Siphon, Summon Spirits.

85-155 DPS, again depending on painful bond.

So 85-155 DPS vs 90-158 DPS (both rits added and divided by 2), but the duo rits have free slots and can cause blindness and remove enchantments.

DPS numbers of course assume all spirits are up, alive, buffed, and hitting things.

So two rits are better than one, if they work together the right way and the 1st rit casts good painful bonds.

P.S. Fixed the numbers a little after finding out the extra damage from SoGM is added before anguish's damage is doubled.

Coast · Mar 30, 2010, 05:22 PM // 17:22

or maybe swap headgear so u don't waste hp ?

ac1inferno · Mar 30, 2010, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Buff [[Malign Intervention]. I don't see any use of it right now. Make the spawned minion fall under user's control instead of being masterless. Or increase healing reduction to 33%.

I thought about making it an enchantment without the healing reduction that spawns a minion under user's control like [[Death Nova], but without the explosion. But then it would be like [[Jagged Bones], but much better.

Also, it would be fun to see [[Jagged Bones] restored to 5 second recharge so you can keep it up on more than 3 minions.

Daesu · Mar 30, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

My point is that running 2 Rits will not be ineffective, but they don't stack as cleanly as Assassins do. Running 2 Rits will provide more power than 1 Rit, but it's not twice the power of the one Rit. Physicals just don't have that overlap problem.

If there is synergy then it is not just twice but more than twice the power so to that end, Necromas is right IF there is indeed synergy between the rits.