Curse

cosmothehound · Dec 26, 2010, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Which build on PvX wikia should I look into?

Luminarus · Dec 26, 2010, 07:09 AM // 07:09

As a Human the best build ive found is an Order of Undeath MM with lots of fiends and a couple of vamp horrors standing in a EBSoH.

On a hero, ur better off as a bomber with either jagged, aotl, or discord.

gremlin · Dec 26, 2010, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

As a Human the best build ive found is an Order of Undeath MM with lots of fiends and a couple of vamp horrors standing in a EBSoH.

On a hero, ur better off as a bomber with either jagged, aotl, or discord.

I would go with this if you can get Order of Undeath.

To start as a basic mm you need to easily get an army going and then use blood of the master to keep it up.
Initially use any minion types.

It is possible to just use fiends and then use an area effect monk heal to keep them going when they all cluster around you but they are a little fragile.

These days I usually have a hero do all the MM builds while I do something else mainly because MMing is boring and they are better at the bombing as already mentioned.

If I am running my necro I take a curses build to boost the party damage.

reaper with no name · Dec 26, 2010, 10:55 AM // 10:55

I honestly don't see the point of bone fiends in the era of spirit spamming. It's like bringing a monk with barrage. If one is going to be a minion master, it makes a lot more sense to use their minions to do what spirits can't do, rather than force them to do the same thing spirits do (but with less effectiveness).

gremlin · Dec 26, 2010, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I honestly don't see the point of bone fiends in the era of spirit spamming. It's like bringing a monk with barrage. If one is going to be a minion master, it makes a lot more sense to use their minions to do what spirits can't do, rather than force them to do the same thing spirits do (but with less effectiveness).

I run a basic party consisting of MM necro, Panic Mesmer, Healing Monk to that I add whatever character I am running.
I join other players or more and more often these days add henchmen That works perfectly in all the pve I play normal or hard.

I offered Bone fiends as an option for the op to try and see if it works for them as it does for some of my friends.

Spirits can be overrun if you fix the enemy with a mob of minions then throw in panic Spirits and maybe spiteful spirits you can vaporise a mob faster than spirits alone so your right Spirits are more efficient than fiends.

Except that fiends are mobile and can be easily healed

Don't get me wrong I often solo with a spirit build to achieve specific objectives but its lazy and boring wouldn't do it all the time.

reaper with no name · Dec 26, 2010, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Summon Spirits allows for mobile easily healed spirits as well.

The only real advantage of bone fiends over spirits is that they can trigger physical damage synergies. And even then their use is questionable, since you can't guarantee they will attack the right target. Other than that, they're just squishier, weaker spirits that are much harder to make and maintain.

gremlin · Dec 26, 2010, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Summon Spirits allows for mobile easily healed spirits as well.

The only real advantage of bone fiends over spirits is that they can trigger physical damage synergies. And even then their use is questionable, since you can't guarantee they will attack the right target. Other than that, they're just squishier, weaker spirits that are much harder to make and maintain.

Truth be told I read your post and reacted then on rereading it I realised I had misunderstood it and so edited my post.

I have tried fiends myself and don't find them that good they are very expensive to create and as you say squishy.
They do have a fairly fast fire rate and are easily healed without depending on Blood of the master.

Xenomortis · Dec 26, 2010, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I honestly don't see the point of bone fiends in the era of spirit spamming. It's like bringing a monk with barrage. If one is going to be a minion master, it makes a lot more sense to use their minions to do what spirits can't do, rather than force them to do the same thing spirits do (but with less effectiveness).

Spirits don't outdo minion damage.
But spirits are more reliable, easier to run and don't require corpses.
Level 20 minions are tougher than level 12 spirits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

The only real advantage of bone fiends over spirits is that they can trigger physical damage synergies. And even then their use is questionable, since you can't guarantee they will attack the right target. Other than that, they're just squishier, weaker spirits that are much harder to make and maintain.

With 11 minions I don't worry too much about this. Some of them are going to attack something useful. But they're not squishier, they're just more susceptible to attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmothehound

Which build on PvX wikia should I look into?

Your other thread suggests you're just starting out. At this stage it doesn't matter and so you run whatever you can. Build finesse only really matters once you get going in Hard Mode and so you have plenty of time to get used to things and learn your own way.
However, the only MM build I can really recommend for a human is one using Order of Undeath. A human can run Death Nova based bars, but it's very, very tedious.
Running minions without Death Nova or Order of Undeath is a waste of time.

reaper with no name · Dec 26, 2010, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Spirits don't outdo minion damage.
But spirits are more reliable, easier to run and don't require corpses.
Level 20 minions are tougher than level 12 spirits.

With 11 minions I don't worry too much about this. Some of them are going to attack something useful. But they're not squishier, they're just more susceptible to attack.

Let's find out, shall we?

A level 18 bone fiend deals an average damage of 27.5 per hit, according to the wiki. I don't know what a level 20 one would do, but it can't be more than, say, 40. Since they attack once per 1.9 seconds (call it 2), that cuts their dps in half to 20. This gets cut in half further by HM armor, to 10.

OoU adds +17 at 16 death magic, which means OoU is adding 17/2 (call it 9) extra damage. 9+10 = 19 damage per second per bone fiend.

Let's take a spirit from SoS as the baseline for a single spirit. At 16 channeling, a spirit of hate will deal 26 armor ignoring damage, which gets cut in half since they attack once every 2 seconds. That's 13 damage. Now throw in Painful Bond (at 16 channeling it's +21, which we will pretend is +20) and it becomes 23 (had to cut the painful bond damage in half because it gets triggered once per 2 seconds).

Spirit to minion, spirits win. However, even with a full out SoGM build (and thereby getting the maximum possible spirit dps at the cost of all utility), there wouldn't be 11 spirits, which is how many minions you can have at 18 death magic. So, overall, the minions as a whole would indeed have more damage potential.

A level 12 spirit doesn't have as much health as a bone fiend, but it does have more armor. And if you have a decent rank in SP or Armor of Unfeeling (and any decent spirit build will have at least one of these), spirits are definitely tougher. No question about that.

I suspect you're correct about the physical synergies, however.

Quote:

Your other thread suggests you're just starting out. At this stage it doesn't matter and so you run whatever you can. Build finesse only really matters once you get going in Hard Mode and so you have plenty of time to get used to things and learn your own way.
However, the only MM build I can really recommend for a human is one using Order of Undeath. A human can run Death Nova based bars, but it's very, very tedious.
Running minions without Death Nova or Order of Undeath is a waste of time.

We both agree on this. Do it.

Xenomortis · Dec 26, 2010, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Order of Undeath should be counting at +19, not +17. Masochism is basically a given here.
You also ignore completely Ebon Battle Standard of Honor. This counts in favour of minions but it has no effect on spirits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

A level 12 spirit doesn't have as much health as a bone fiend, but it does have more armor. And if you have a decent rank in SP or Armor of Unfeeling (and any decent spirit build will have at least one of these), spirits are definitely tougher. No question about that.

I didn't realise spirits had a different armour formula. A level 12 has approximately 74 armour in NM and the wiki doesn't make a claim on this in HM. Bone Fiends seem to follow the standard level*3 rule and hence has 60 at level 20 (63 at 21).
The health difference however is much more significant than the armour difference.
At 16 Spawning a level 12 spirit has 394 versus the 480 of a level 20 Fiend. At a much more reasonable 13 Spawning it's 365.

Armour of Unfeeling shouldn't be counted as a given, more of a luxury. In an SoS build you end up choosing between Armour of Unfeeling, Painful Bond, Siphon Spirit or another attack spirit. I wouldn't say a SoGM build has room for it (but does get high Spawning).

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

However, even with a full out SoGM build (and thereby getting the maximum possible spirit dps at the cost of all utility), there wouldn't be 11 spirits, which is how many minions you can have at 18 death magic. So, overall, the minions as a whole would indeed have more damage potential.

Your per spirit calculations use an SoS build with Painful Bond. With that, this doesn't make much sense.
What's the claim here? 6 spirits with SoGM and Painful Bond?
I can run a viable build with 8 spirits and Painful Bond (SoS, 5 attack spirits, Siphon and PB) but it's immobile and more fragile than a Bone Fiend ball.

Bellatrixa · Dec 26, 2010, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Wow... so off topic when all the OP asked for was ideas for a MM build...

On the occasions I MM, I generally run:

Masochism
Aura of the Lich
Animate Bone Horror
Death Nova (I have no issues applying this to minions, just takes some practice)
Dark Bond
Putrid Bile
Blood of the Master (useful for between fights but I run mine as more of a bombing build as AotL provides plenty of minions)
Signet of Lost Souls (quick HP burst if you have an enemy under 50% health not to mention energy regain)

Template code: OABDQTxGTbhyBVBoBKCKg4BVVA

I generally have no energy issues when running this with a 40/40 set and I have a staff that gives me + health while enchanted to swap to should I need the extra boost. I'm by no means an expert MM, but this suits me fine. Only armour that I have that differs from my SS kit is a Sup Death magic headpiece and a Bloodstained insignia on my boots.

reaper with no name · Dec 26, 2010, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Oops, forgot to count Masochism on OoU (got it on everything else, though). My sleep cycle is messed up. Work with me here.

Armor of Unfeeling or high SP (but not both) is as much of a given on a spirit build as Masochism is on a MM build.

Now EBSoH is a luxury. But it doesn't matter. I proved your point for you.

Necromas · Dec 26, 2010, 08:07 PM // 20:07

The advantages/differences between minions and spirits.

- Minions have melee types, which are well suited for body blocking, and using with ancestor's rage and death nova.

- Minions can be used with death nova, dwayna's sorrow, splinter weapon, soul reaping, and even judge's intervention. Spirits are immune to enchantments, weapons spells, and even healing skills (that do not state they effect spirits).

- Spirits are also immune to hexes and conditions.

- Both are effected by chants and shouts that do not exclude non-party members or spirits in their descriptions. Spirit attacks are attack skills and both spirits and minions can critical hit but a spirits attack (like power shot or d-shot) does no additional damage on a critical hit.

- Minions do physical damage while spirits do untyped armor ignoring damage. Obviously this means minion damage is heavily impacted by armor but can also synergize with barbs and mark of pain.

- There are several abilities which effect "non-spirit allies" that can benefit minions but not spirits, most notably wards and passive spirits, with ebon battle standard of honor probably being the most significant. Bone fiends are also effected by favorable winds.

- Bone fiends have armor roughly equivalent to base caster armor of their level, melee minions have armor roughly equivalent to a warrior of their level, with flesh golems having a bit more, and spirits have armor roughly twice that of a caster of their level.

- Spirits have level * 20 health and minions have level * 20 + 80 health.

- Spirits are easy to create and for players are easy to move, protect, and position with summon spirits. With careful positioning they can be directed to attack certain targets.

- Minions are often very tedious for players to micromanage and their movement and positioning cannot be controlled. They generally attack what their master attacks but they will not move or change focus if they are already attacking something.

- Heroes with spirits are disadvantaged compared to players because they cannot take summon spirits and if left to their own devices can seriously screw up placement, positioning, and use of certain skills.

- Heroes with minions are slightly advantaged compared to players as they do not mind the tediousness, and do not find difficulty in managing minion-targeting skills. Do not trust them with Order of Undeath builds though.

**Marty Silverblade** · Dec 26, 2010, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Just because no one else has mentioned it yet... stop using the old wiki. The community moved to the new site and the wikia ones are just for vandalizing.

New one: http://www.guildwiki.org/Main_Page
PvX: http://www.gwpvx.com/PvX_wiki

LifeInfusion · Dec 26, 2010, 11:22 PM // 23:22

I'm not a big fan of Order of Undeath since it's really micro management intensive. It's like using Orders and running MM at the same time.

I prefer AoTL since you don't need to keep casting animate (fiend/minions/horror). If you want to put Death Nova on things, then AoTL is far superior. However, if you want to run Vampiric Horrors, Order of Undeath is the only option for you to get something out of them. I would never run Order of Undeath with a PUG (bring Dark bond too).

Xenomortis · Dec 26, 2010, 11:42 PM // 23:42

And spamming Death Nova whilst keeping minions turning over is less intensive than spamming two skills on near recharge?

Zodiac Meteor · Dec 27, 2010, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Things don't add up in this thread...
Minions have more armor and health than spirits. Barbs + MoP + Minions = lolwut, minion's have one huge advantage over spirits and that is Death Nova.

Spirits can deal a lot of damage, but their AI isn't program for targeting the one foe hexed with Spirit Bond. To make matters worse, heroes suck at spirits, compared to other builds.

AI + MM + Death Nova = 100 damage armor ignoring AoE damage and

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiki

Heroes are capable of using this skill on minions with good efficiency, since they will automatically enchant any minions close to death, something that normal players have problems with. The drawback is that they tend to prefer casting this spell above Blood of the Master when not in battle, resulting in unnecessary minion deaths.

Translation, when the minions are about to die, AI will make sure they will go out with a bang. Humans can target minions, but good luck finding the dying one dying minion among the 7. By the time you find it, it will already be dead.

Xenomortis · Dec 27, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Things don't add up in this thread...
Minions have more armor and health than spirits.

Minions have more health. They have less armour in NM and I don't see why this would change in HM. Spirits follow a different armour progression.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Spirits can deal a lot of damage, but their AI isn't program for targeting the one foe hexed with Spirit Bond. To make matters worse, heroes suck at spirits, compared to other builds.

AI + MM + Death Nova = 100 damage armor ignoring AoE damage and

This thread wasn't really about the AI. I'm not sure how heroes suck with spirit builds, at least offensive ones. They throw up attack spirits no problem.
They're poor at using other skills, but this is a universal problem and happens with hero MM builds too.

Zodiac Meteor · Dec 27, 2010, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

This thread wasn't really about the AI. I'm not sure how heroes suck with spirit builds, at least offensive ones. They throw up attack spirits no problem.

Add any spirit buff skill to AI and you know what I mean (Soul Twist/Ritual Lord/Signet of Ghostly Might).

Quote:

Minions have more health. They have less armour in NM and I don't see why this would change in HM. Spirits follow a different armour progression.

Spirits AND Minions armor formula is, 7 + (level x 6) = armor.

A level 20 Bone Horror has 123 armor and 450 health.
A level 13 Spirit of pain has 310 Health and 81 armor.

Spirits Health is as follows, 50+(level x20)
Minions Health is as follows 100+(levelx20)

Xenomortis · Dec 27, 2010, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Spirits AND Minions armor formula is, 7 + (level x 6) = armor.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bone_Fiend
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bone_Horror