Curse

Pyromancer74 · Jul 03, 2011, 11:38 AM // 11:38

I really want to make a minion master, but nearly all builds have 'masochism' in it, but I can't get that skill. Is this skill really needed for a good minion master, or can I replace it with another skill?

lucaa_tlw · Jul 03, 2011, 11:57 AM // 11:57

The fact that Masochism is a really useful skill doesn't mean that a build without if would be bad.
The main disanvantage is that your MM without Masochism will not hit the break point of 18 death magic needed for 11 minions (even with AoTL he would have 17).
If you dont have EoTN you can replace it with a utility skill for better prot/e-management or whatever.

An effective MM build could be:

OANEQSx2+2IHqC4B0QApecX7EA

or

OANEQUx2+VInqgH0Ew6ZoOB

20% ench staff recommended

Just my 2 cents, there are lots of others viable builds out there

gremlin · Jul 03, 2011, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Its overrated as a mm skill imo

You will probably be healing your army with Blood of the master where you sacrifice health to cast it, Masochism is another sacrifice health skill.
Just what you needed.

Ok so you don't get 11 minions so what much of the time you will probably have around 8 minions.
Even with blood of the master and a friendly monk keeping your health up you will be hard put to keep 10 minions going all the time.

Jagged bones is useful as is Aura of the Lich both elites but if you don't have access it doesn't really matter.

The meat shield effect of a group of minions is quite valuable to a party as is the ranged attack of bone fiends though they are more fragile.

I do know one mm who uses fiends all the time hiding in the centre of the group and using area effect heals to keep them going.

Find what works for you

Swingline · Jul 03, 2011, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Its useful when using the skill that raises 2 minions at the same time. Since you raising 2 the level will be lower than the single minion skills. With Masochism you increase their level by quite a bit and even more with AoTL. It also keeps your minion army up in number if there is huge agro. I also find jagged bones is very good with it.

Kunder · Jul 03, 2011, 01:35 PM // 13:35

You gain about ~33% overall minion DPS with it. Your minion wall can absorb ~33% more damage. This is in addition to the other skills that become stronger with higher death magic (BotM, Death Nova mainly), and the improved Soul Reaping. The sac is pretty much completely irrelevant in the grand scheme, 2 or 3% per cast is less health loss than the necromancers who afflict themselves with bleeding have to face.

Overall, its a hugely important skill that should be on any MM bar, but for the most part MMs are so overpowered that you can probably get by without it.

Also, not having EotN means you are missing out on Ebon Battle Standard of Honor (between +100% and +200% damage boost depending on enemy armor), which is another skill that should be on pretty much every MM bar to be maximally effective.

HigherMinion · Jul 03, 2011, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Masochism isn't needed if you're looking to have a Minion Wall. Death Nova becomes stronger, yes, but you don't need it to be in most circumstances.

If you want DPS out of your Minions, then sure, it's useful.

Lanier · Jul 03, 2011, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Overall, its a hugely important skill that should be on any MM bar, but for the most part MMs are so overpowered that you can probably get by without it.

Wanted to quote this post for emphasis. If you can use it, then do so. If you can't, it wont matter too much, as your mm will still be very powerful.

Pugs Not Drugs · Jul 03, 2011, 05:11 PM // 17:11

I actually don't run masochism or a superior rune because I don't think they are really worth it. I find that when Livia has a sup rune, enemies tend to focus her more, which isn't a good thing, because that prevents her from spamming Death Nova because she is kiting. And if she dies, her nine or so minions go berserk. Sacrificing one skill slot for +2 to two attributes isn't worth it either, because that slot could be used for something more useful, ie a hard rez or another prot.

Kristofferus · Jul 03, 2011, 05:37 PM // 17:37

We've been able to keep up a steady flow of minions without any problems before AotL buff and Masochism change. You should be just fine without it. Are you thinking of running Blood of The Master? Which minion types are you looking to bring (horrors, minions, shambling, etc)? The only benefit of Masochism is that you get to carry around ONE more minion, and the overall level of the minions is increased as follows:

Flesh Golem: 3 Levels higher
Fiend, Horror, Vamp, Shambling, AotL, Jagged Bones: 2 Levels higher
Minions: 1 Level higher

Keep in mind also that Aura of the Lich (AotL) increases your death magic by another rank, but you most likely have access to that skill so I won't go into it further.

gremlin · Jul 03, 2011, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

I actually don't run masochism or a superior rune because I don't think they are really worth it. I find that when Livia has a sup rune, enemies tend to focus her more, which isn't a good thing, because that prevents her from spamming Death Nova because she is kiting. And if she dies, her nine or so minions go berserk. Sacrificing one skill slot for +2 to two attributes isn't worth it either, because that slot could be used for something more useful, ie a hard rez or another prot.

I agree with you totally.

My minions are not there for dps they are there to block and absorb damage and spells.
I can heal while they fight so an extra level or two doesn't really matter to me.

Aura of the Lich gives me +1 death and can create a minion without any corpse if there is a corpse I get 2 minions, which is better than animate minions.
If I go mesmer secondary I can cast aura of the lich twice quickly, starting with zero bodies I can go to a small army in next to no time.

Chthon · Jul 03, 2011, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

You gain about ~33% overall minion DPS with it. Your minion wall can absorb ~33% more damage. This is in addition to the other skills that become stronger with higher death magic (BotM, Death Nova mainly), and the improved Soul Reaping. The sac is pretty much completely irrelevant in the grand scheme, 2 or 3% per cast is less health loss than the necromancers who afflict themselves with bleeding have to face.

Overall, its a hugely important skill that should be on any MM bar, but for the most part MMs are so overpowered that you can probably get by without it.

Also, not having EotN means you are missing out on Ebon Battle Standard of Honor (between +100% and +200% damage boost depending on enemy armor), which is another skill that should be on pretty much every MM bar to be maximally effective.

This is pretty much spot on.

Let's start by distinguishing Minion Masters from Minion Bombers. Is your goal to have minions that continuously tank and do damage, or minions that attract a few hits, die, and blow up? Masters need the things that Masochism can give more than Bombers do.

Let's go over MAso's benefits.

1. An extra minion. Maso takes the cap from 10 to 11. Even if it did nothing else, this alone would make your build 10% better at everything.
2. Increases minion level from 18 to 20. Since most minion stats are based on their level, this does a lot of things.
- More base damage on minions. I don't believe anyone's managed to derive the equation for minion damage, but it goes up pretty obviously with their level.
- More armor. Horrors go up by 8AL (damage reduced ~13%) and Fiends go up by 6AL (damage reduced ~10%).
- More hp. 2 levels means an extra 40hp.
- Less susceptible to critical hits. Defender level is a variable in the base crit hit equation. Higher level makes minions harder to crit against.
3. Bonuses to minion-related skills.
- BotM heals for 11hp more per minion per cast. Multiply over 11 minions, and that's an extra 121hp healed per cast.
- OoU +dmg goes from 17 to 19. Precise estimates depend on your fiend/horror balance, but you can roughly estimate 1.5 attack per 5sec per minion times 11 minions times 2dmg ~= 33dmg cast. (That's about the equivalent of a warrior attack skill right there.)
- Death Nova damage goes up by 10. (This is the only benefit that really helps out Minion Bombers.)
4. Better e-management.
- +2 to Soul Reaping is +2 to Soul Reaping.
- +2 to Soul Reaping is +1e per cast on SoLS.
- +2 Death MAgic is +2e per cast on Consume Corpse.

So, can you do without it? Well, you probably won't fail missions because of it. But there's no question that your performance is going to be a lot worse than it could be.

I also want to echo Kunder's point that missing EBSoH is also a very big loss.

Xenomortis · Jul 03, 2011, 07:02 PM // 19:02

MMs were perfectly adequate and at times, ridiculously powerful, for the 4 or so years before Masochism existed in its current state.
It's worth taking if you have it over pretty much any other skill, but you'll do fine without it.

Swingline · Jul 04, 2011, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pugs Not Drugs

I actually don't run masochism or a superior rune because I don't think they are really worth it. I find that when Livia has a sup rune, enemies tend to focus her more, which isn't a good thing, because that prevents her from spamming Death Nova because she is kiting. And if she dies, her nine or so minions go berserk. Sacrificing one skill slot for +2 to two attributes isn't worth it either, because that slot could be used for something more useful, ie a hard rez or another prot.

The less health a player/hero/ally/npc has the more agro they will receive. The trick is to supplement a MM with tons and tons of hp. This is pretty much how my MM is built rune/insignia wise...

Head: Survivor Insignia, Superior Death Rune

Chest: Survivor Insignia, Superior Vigor Rune

Gloves: Survivor Insignia, Vitae Rune

Pants: Survivor Insignia, Vitae Rune

Boots: Bloodstained Insignia, Minor Soul Reaping Rune

Weapon: Bone Staff +10e, 20/20 +60 hp(from a collector)

My MM is always the last to die and never runs out of energy due to his primary attribute. You can always try armor instead of hp, more hp is just my preference since your health sacrifice is based off of percentage.

Xenomortis · Jul 04, 2011, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

more hp is just my preference since your health sacrifice is based off of percentage.

That rationale seems a little backwards to me.

Swingline · Jul 04, 2011, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

That rationale seems a little backwards to me.

Works perfect for me.

Kunder · Jul 04, 2011, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Enemy target priorities based on health/armor are very, very weak. Positioning is much more important, and your necro is standing behind 10/11 480+ HP tanks.

If you have to go for anything though, go armor. Health at best provides no benefit, at worst is counterproductive.

Chthon · Jul 04, 2011, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

The trick is to supplement a MM with tons and tons of hp.

This is precisely wrong. When you have a build that needs to sacrifice 25% health every 6sec or so, you want to run the lowest health total you can get away with because the cost (both energy and cast time) of constantly refilling those extra hit points over and over is just staggering. This goes double if you've got heroes (or idiots) in charge of doing the healing, since they do not differentiate between "safely saccing from the safety of the backline" and "oh shit 150 damage in one hit! heal! heal! heal!" and will always prioritize healing you at the expense of people who are actually getting hit by monsters.

The correct "trick" is to learn proper positioning, like Kunder said. Other things you can do for survivability include MM's insignias to bring you up to 75AL (damage reduced ~23% versus 60AL) and learning how to design/use heroes with decent prot (or insist on teammates with decent bars). If worse comes to worse, Dark Bond at 3 or 3+1 Blood Magic does a remarkably good job of making up for poor positioning, low AL, and poor/no prot.

[edit: I realize belatedly that I should go back and explain the simple point first, since that seems to be the stumbling block for some people. Sacs are an intermediate cost; the final cost comes out of the energy pool of whoever casts the heal to restore the lost hp (plus side costs such as cast time and recharge time on the heal, and temporarily increased vulnerability to being spiked). Where max hp comes into play is the fact that sacs are a percentage, but the heals that counteract the sacs are always a straight integer. This means that the cost of healing your sac is going to vary in direct proportion with your max hp. The ideal situation is where the healing from Vamp Horrors, plus diffuse healing like PWK, Life, HBurst, DH/HD, etc. is enough to cover your sacs. Second-best is a situation where you can safely go two rounds of BotM between taking a big spot heal like WoH. Third-best is a situation where you need to be spot healed after every sac, but someone running a shit bar with redundant spot heals can cover it with a bad spot heal like Orison. (Obviously, this only applies in cases where your team includes a healer running a shitbar.) Worse case scenario is where you require the big spot heal (WoH, etc.) after every sac. Well, guess what you're doing when you run ~600hp on a MM?]

Kunder · Jul 04, 2011, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

If worse comes to worse, Dark Bond at 3 or 3+1 Blood Magic does a remarkably good job of making up for poor positioning, low AL, and poor/no prot.

Dark Bond does in fact make MMs invincible. Compare:

Dark Bond: 75% reduction, works against armor ignoring damage, 30s+
Save Yourselves: 82.5% reduction, bypassed by armor ignoring damage.

God help your enemies if you put them together. You can reduce armor-respecting damage to a laughable 3%. Or to put it another way, it would require 16,500 (armor-respecting) damage to kill a 500 HP necromancer. If it weren't for the fact that Dark Bond was susceptible to disenchantment they would be by far the best tanks in the game.

Now, its not amazing on human MMs who won't be taking much damage anyway. But if there is any chance at all of a hero MM being stupid or misflagged, Dark Bond will let them tough out anything a mob can throw at them.

HigherMinion · Jul 05, 2011, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

it would require 16,500 (armor-respecting) damage to kill a 500 HP necromancer. If it weren't for the fact that Dark Bond was susceptible to disenchantment they would be by far the best tanks in the game.
.

Remember if you have no minions, you have no use for Dark Bond, although I'm not sure how quickly it runs out; is it the full 75% of damage redirected to minions? In HM, they won't last terribly long. Consider Shelter or Displacement, etc. With minions up.

Kunder · Jul 05, 2011, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Remember if you have no minions, you have no use for Dark Bond, although I'm not sure how quickly it runs out; is it the full 75% of damage redirected to minions? In HM, they won't last terribly long. Consider Shelter or Displacement, etc. With minions up.

Full 75% is redirected.

11 minions have 5280 health, BotM heals 1463 per cast, and every animate minion spell used is another 480 health. Minions last just fine in HM, entire mobs are going to have troubles putting out enough DPS to take that down.