Curse

Helcaraxe · Apr 20, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

With the half casting and half recharge we might want to start looking at Power Block (to make those recharge times longer) or diversion... shutdown may actually find a place in PvE!

XvArchonvX · Apr 20, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

Yes, I know how to play the game, thank you.

I never insinuated that your difference in opinion was due to a lack of knowledge and/or experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

My point was the actual skill involved in interrupting in pve has been all but eliminated because you either have to rely on fire-and-forget effects like Guilt (which is a stupid skill to bring because you can only use once in 30 seconds and it doesn't even do proper shutdown with halved recharges) or a daze/slowcast hex to bring proper interrupts, which are supposed to be viably powerful, to bear.

So, you would argue that it is more powerful to be able to slow your target's cast in order to interupt? If so, then what of skills like[skill]Arcane Conundrum[/skill] or [skill]Migraine[/skill]? [skill]Frustration[/skill] may be one of the best examples since it only has a 15 second recharge and triggers anytime an enemy is interupted, not only when they are casting, contrary to the skill description. I'm not sure of how you see the mesmer still being inferior just because twitch interupts are harder in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

This also effects e-management, since drain and leech are much harder to use (unless you get lucky and they cast a 2-3-second spell) without wasting another 10 energy slowing the caster down.

Power drain and Leech Signet were unreliable for pure energy management in the first place due to their conditional nature. While they can be supplementary in providing energy, completely relying on them for e-management in most cases will prevent problems regardless of what mode of play you are in. This is why there are skills like e-drain, channeling, e-tap, insp hex, etc. If you argue that these are weak, then I won't completely disagree. Energy management on a mesmer is not what it used to, but a good build can still make due without relying on interuption to support it.

*edit* forgot to mention that mesmers still have the power of E-denial which can come in handy against stout enemies/bosses that present themselves in HM. The same mesmer can also spirit shackle + mind wrack spamthe mindless mobs in the meantime to deal decent damage. After all, there's no need to interupt a skill if the enemy can't afford to cast it.

fripple · Apr 20, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I never insinuated that your difference in opinion was due to a lack of knowledge and/or experience.

So, you would argue that it is more powerful to be able to slow your target's cast in order to interupt? If so, then what of skills like[skill]Arcane Conundrum[/skill] or [skill]Migraine[/skill]? [skill]Frustration[/skill] may be one of the best examples since it only has a 15 second recharge and triggers anytime an enemy is interupted, not only when they are casting, contrary to the skill description. I'm not sure of how you see the mesmer still being inferior just because twitch interupts are harder in HM.

Power drain and Leech Signet were unreliable for pure energy management in the first place due to their conditional nature. While they can be supplementary in providing energy, completely relying on them for e-management in most cases will prevent problems regardless of what mode of play you are in. This is why there are skills like e-drain, channeling, e-tap, insp hex, etc. If you argue that these are weak, then I won't completely disagree. Energy management on a mesmer is not what it used to, but a good build can still make due without relying on interuption to support it.

*edit* forgot to mention that mesmers still have the power of E-denial which can come in handy against stout enemies/bosses that present themselves in HM. The same mesmer can also spirit shackle + mind wrack spamthe mindless mobs in the meantime to deal decent damage. After all, there's no need to interupt a skill if the enemy can't afford to cast it.

Yes, we all know about the slowdown hexes. I already mentioned them myself. When I went out and tried an illusion build, I was sure to bring frustration because it let me catch all the spells being thrown at me. The point is that's an extra ten energy that needs to be spent on anyone you want to interrupt, and mesmers are strapped to begin with.

Those other e-management options are NOT options, and you know it. Why would I screw around with energy tap when I could just bring gole? And I'm certainly not wasting my elite on e drain. If I'm going to be bothering with mesmer management at all, it's going to be power drain or leech sig because the others don't have returns even approaching those found in other classes.

And, you know, the old e-denial argument is still largely nonsense. Why would it suddenly work now? It's the same size mobs as before, and the problem with denial before wasn't that you couldn't do it, it was that you could, but that didn't do anything to the five other guys nuking you while their warriors went after your monks. Your spirit shackles might drop that one guy's energy faster if he does a lot of wanding instead of spamming the shit out of his spells (go watch the kappa on shing jea to see how that works; and yes, I know you can divert/backfire them; I'm not talking about the actual ways to kill them, I'm using them as an easily seen example of mobs that don't necessarily trigger meelee effects), but the time spent doing that is more loaded than it was before thanks to enemy fast casting. Mesmers are still constrained by their overly focused nature since the number of enemies hasn't been reduced.

Any time builds are made more limited in their viable range of skills, they are made inferior to their previous position. That is simple logic, especially in a game that is supposed to be about options. Limiting twitch interrupts when mesmers are supposed to derive part of their threat from those very skills is bad for the class and bad for class perception, regardless of whether we have workarounds, which we obviously do.

XvArchonvX · Apr 20, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

Those other e-management options are NOT options, and you know it. Why would I screw around with energy tap when I could just bring gole? And I'm certainly not wasting my elite on e drain. If I'm going to be bothering with mesmer management at all, it's going to be power drain or leech sig because the others don't have returns even approaching those found in other classes.

Becaue E-drain and E-tap give you energy when you need it. A large return of energy looks great on paper, but doesn't mean anything if comes when you already have plenty or can't get it when you run dry. GoLE is a viable option for energy management, but you lose out on the ability to rez chant with fast casting, which is very beneficial in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

And, you know, the old e-denial argument is still largely nonsense. Why would it suddenly work now? It's the same size mobs as before, and the problem with denial before wasn't that you couldn't do it, it was that you could, but that didn't do anything to the five other guys nuking you while their warriors went after your monks.

Because monk bosses can actually heal decently now and there are greater counters to straight nuking than in normal mode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

Your spirit shackles might drop that one guy's energy faster if he does a lot of wanding instead of spamming the shit out of his spells (go watch the kappa on shing jea to see how that works; and yes, I know you can divert/backfire them; I'm not talking about the actual ways to kill them, I'm using them as an easily seen example of mobs that don't necessarily trigger meelee effects), but the time spent doing that is more loaded than it was before thanks to enemy fast casting. Mesmers are still constrained by their overly focused nature since the number of enemies hasn't been reduced.

Why would you put Shackles on a caster??? Seriously? Toss it on a melee enemy like a warrior. They will be drained in a matter of seconds due to their low energy storage and their innate 33% IAS in HM. Mind Wrack deals 95 damage each cast with a 5 second recharge. Even less if ran with Mantra of Recovery.

[/QUOTE]
Any time builds are made more limited in their viable range of skills, they are made inferior to their previous position. That is simple logic, especially in a game that is supposed to be about options. Limiting twitch interrupts when mesmers are supposed to derive part of their threat from those very skills is bad for the class and bad for class perception, regardless of whether we have workarounds, which we obviously do.[/QUOTE]
Mesmers are far from reliant on twitch interupts. They carry a large bag of tricks ranging from skill disabling, energy denial, degen, and straight damage. Their role still doesn't work perfectly against large mobs, but since large mobs are smarter and stronger, taking out key enemies makes more of a difference than it did before.

Shuuda · Apr 20, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Just out of curiousity, in high end mission, could it be useful for a mesmer to use Expel hexes, Last time I checked the Mursaat like their hexes (Life trans, Thunderclap etc) and provide some nice support as well as some shut down. AI can be good for e management.

XvArchonvX · Apr 20, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Just out of curiousity, in high end mission, could it be useful for a mesmer to use Expel hexes, Last time I checked the Mursaat like their hexes (Life trans, Thunderclap etc) and provide some nice support as well as some shut down. AI can be good for e management.

Expel Hexes is a good hex removal skil, but is generally ran on a secondary mesmer such an E/Me since it is unlinked and may be more efficient on another support profession. However, most people find that Divert Hexes can be more efficient if used in a build that is energy stable enough since it requires little investment to get 2 hexes removed, provides a bit of bonus healing, and has a lower recharge.

lightblade · Apr 20, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need

The graws on great norther wall have healing hands... my dream has come true... time to interrupt some shiat.

You can't interrupt sh*t!

Hard mode monsters have double cast rate and boss monsters have double the double rate. It's damn near impossible to interrupt them.

Even though it's hard to interrupt them, but their speedy cast does make backfire trigger more often.

Helcaraxe · Apr 21, 2007, 12:11 AM // 00:11

As for the interrupts I've found that most of the caster mobs have several spells that cast extremely fast, but most are also packing a slow casting spell (meteor shower, lightning orb, spirit shackles, weaken armor to name a few) giving more than enough to to land an interrupt. And if that interrupt just happens to be power block like I've been using then that caster is comepletely shutdown (in most cases) for at least 15+ seconds. And then they get to use their increased wanding attack speed to deal pitiful damage and trigger empathy ALOT.

I highly suggest everyone try out Power Block

LightningHell · Apr 21, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesmer in Need

The graws on great norther wall have healing hands... my dream has come true... time to interrupt some shiat.

Healing Hands has 1/4 cast, just remember.

Quote:

Expel Hexes is a good hex removal skil, but is generally ran on a secondary mesmer such an E/Me since it is unlinked and may be more efficient on another support profession. However, most people find that Divert Hexes can be more efficient if used in a build that is energy stable enough since it requires little investment to get 2 hexes removed, provides a bit of bonus healing, and has a lower recharge.

Elementalists don't bring Expel Hexes because they have Mind Blast, Ether Prodigy, Searing Flames, you name it.
Monks don't bring Expel Hexes because they have LoD, ZB, RC, Divert, you name it.
Necromancers don't bring Expel Hexes because they have Tainted, Reaper's Mark, etc.
Rangers don't bring Expel Hexes because they bring Barrage.
Warriors don't bring Expel Hexes, because they bring Dragon Slash.
Assassins don't bring Expel Hexes, because their chain already consumes all their energy - do you think they'd have enough energy to spam Expel everywhere?
Ritualists don't bring Expel Hexes because they'd need Ritual Lord, or an Elite spirit, or Weapon of Remedy, or Spirit's Strength, or some other niche skill.
Dervishes don't bring Expel Hexes because they'll be bringing an Avatar or Reaper's Sweep.
Paragons don't bring Expel Hexes because you can't spam it on 2 pips; besides, why use that when you have some insane buffs?
The only candidate for widespread usage of Expel is a Domination mesmer, who does not need their Elite.

Corpselooter · Apr 21, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Elementalists don't bring Expel Hexes because they have Mind Blast, Ether Prodigy, Searing Flames, you name it.
Monks don't bring Expel Hexes because they have LoD, ZB, RC, Divert, you name it.
Necromancers don't bring Expel Hexes because they have Tainted, Reaper's Mark, etc.
Rangers don't bring Expel Hexes because they bring Barrage.
Warriors don't bring Expel Hexes, because they bring Dragon Slash.
Assassins don't bring Expel Hexes, because their chain already consumes all their energy - do you think they'd have enough energy to spam Expel everywhere?
Ritualists don't bring Expel Hexes because they'd need Ritual Lord, or an Elite spirit, or Weapon of Remedy, or Spirit's Strength, or some other niche skill.
Dervishes don't bring Expel Hexes because they'll be bringing an Avatar or Reaper's Sweep.
Paragons don't bring Expel Hexes because you can't spam it on 2 pips; besides, why use that when you have some insane buffs?
The only candidate for widespread usage of Expel is a Domination mesmer, who does not need their Elite.[/QUOTE]

QFT. Besides, Expel Hexes.. yeah, it's pretty good. But partywide hexes can be fixed with Hexbreaker Aria. (Lingering Curse. DIE!)

Evilsod · Apr 21, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Paragons don't bring Expel Hexes because you can't spam it on 2 pips; besides, why use that when you have some insane buffs?
The only candidate for widespread usage of Expel is a Domination mesmer, who does not need their Elite.

P/Me, used by (i think) War Machine. Spams Go for the Eyes and uses Expel Hexes and Mirror of Disenchantment. Since most paragon elites are shit, i'd rather they use this. Any profession that has a spare slot and doesn't need there secondary can bring Hex Breaker Aria.

cce · Apr 29, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

I'd rather see HM simply remove the *aftercast* of casters, to keep the spam rate up; but otherwise keep the cast rate "as-is".

Ensign · Apr 29, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Expel can be supported very reasonably by a Mesmer, Paragon, or Ritualist, if that's what you want. Any of the melee classes can support it as well, though that usually isn't what you want out of a melee elite.

Peace,
-CxE