Curse

Two April Mornings · Feb 12, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

That's the objective here. Give the mesmer more places to shine in PvE.

That is just going to be a very difficult task due to the ease of playing other professions in PVE. Mesmers are harder to play more effectively.

cellardweller · Feb 12, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two April Mornings

Right, but those are 3! different classes. The mesmer can succesfully shutdown all 3 of those aspects, but it just a single class.

I'd love to see this magical mesmer skill bar that can shut down melee groups, caster groups and lock down a single target. You'll have solved the whole mesmer's suck thing if you've got one.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by bj91x

I've gone through the game with all 10 professions. For me at least, an Me was not hard to go through the game at all. Me's have tools for nearly any situation. There wasn't a single mission I had much trouble in. Granted, Me's AOE isn't that great, but if a certain mission required a lot of AOE, I just let my E and N heroes handle them while I take down the enemies that are spread out from the rest of the enemy groups.

AOE is over rated, really. There are a lot of enemies that are not standing in close proximity to its group. This is why single target DPS is so valuable. I never go with just AOE damage. I always ensure that I have at least 1 single target DPS.

If anything, I had the most trouble going through the game with my Mo. I'm not a fan of healing, so I had to smite my way through the game with H/H. Smiting is OK, but its damage isn't mind blowing save for few specific set ups.

I also never had any problems getting into groups with my Me. Heck, my smite Mo had more trouble than anything (if a Mo isn't healing/protecting, PUG seem to automatically just press the kick button -_-). I like to help out random PUG players with missions on a regular basis, and I can't even remember the last time a player turned me down because I was a Me, or asked me to take CoP, Ursan, etc.

While I see points from both sides, I'm going to side with "Me's are awesome in PVE" side. Not everything is about AOE. In nearly every fight, you'll see that there are single targets that an Me can wreak havoc on. The only complaints I had with playing an Me was how I had to switch builds for nearly every zone and how hard it was to create Me builds compared to other classes. However, with the introduction of the PVE skills, these issues have been completely solved for me. Not only that, with the addition of PVE skills, an Me can deal insane AOE damage as well.

PvE skills just sugar coated over the places that mesmers were not effective on their own. That's not the answer to the problem. Mesmers should be rebalanced to have this ability without relying on PvE skills.

Two April Mornings · Feb 12, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I'd love to see this magical mesmer skill bar that can shut down melee groups, caster groups and lock down a single target. You'll have solved the whole mesmer's suck thing if you've got one.

I don't want to self-promote, but this build:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10244632
has effectively done that for me.

It's not perfect, but works for me.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two April Mornings

That is just going to be a very difficult task due to the ease of playing other professions in PVE. Mesmers are harder to play more effectively.

Difficult, yes, but when it comes down to is it worth it, in my eyes, it is.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two April Mornings

I don't want to self-promote, but this build:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10244632
has effectively done that for me.

This build displays my point. It relys heavily on PvE skills and skills from other professions.

The mesmer needs more skills or rebalances that allow it to function with a skill bar made from its own class, and not others or PvE skills.

GloryFox · Feb 12, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

I think in GW2 we will see the Mesmer shine more in PvE. There has been enough evidence to suggest that spells that Hex Punish like Spiteful Spirit is truly the domain of Dominance.

Necromancers still have there roles and can still function outside of Spiteful Spirit, but only time will tell.

Two April Mornings · Feb 12, 2008, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

Difficult, yes, but when it comes down to is it worth it, in my eyes, it is.

I think the best way to have mesmers "be better" in PVE is for people to play them as mesmers; understanding the class's nuances and using the skills well. When people try to change a classes skills to liken it to another class, they fail to see the bigger picture.

Two April Mornings · Feb 12, 2008, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

This build displays my point. It relys heavily on PvE skills and skills from other professions.

The mesmer needs more skills or rebalances that allow it to function with a skill bar made from its own class, and not others or PvE skills.

I love your traditionalist approach to hinting at PVE play without PVE-skills (I try to play that way myself at times), but the game has sadly changed.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two April Mornings

I love your traditionalist approach to hinting at PVE play without PVE-skills (I try to play that way myself at times), but the game has sadly changed.

I think PvE skills were created with some intent that it would glaze over the problem stated in the OP. Sadly, it succeeded. I would love to bring this problem back into light hand have it fixed, even if it is not with the current time and fads.

Jetdoc · Feb 12, 2008, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

So it is a less effective substitute to the abilities of other classes.

...see the Ritualist and the Dervish. Should we move Meteor Shower or Searing Flames to the Ritualist so they can deal AoE damage on par with Elementalists?

Should we move Eviscerate and Executioner's Strike to Dervishes so they can be on par with Axe Warriors?

Two April Mornings · Feb 12, 2008, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

I think PvE skills were created with some intent that it would glaze over the problem stated in the OP. Sadly, it succeeded. I would love to bring this problem back into light hand have it fixed, even if it is not with the current time and fads.

I agree (i'd love to easily roll through PVE with big yellow numbers on my mesmer), but it's not going to happen. In the meanwhile when playing a PVE mesmer, you have to be creative and stick with it (play the correct role). In the end, they get the job done like any other class--and this fact alone means that they don't really need fixing.

EDIT: I'll be back to this thread later, now for some Biochemistry love.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

...see the Ritualist and the Dervish. Should we move Meteor Shower or Searing Flames to the Ritualist so they can deal AoE damage on par with Elementalists?

Should we move Eviscerate and Executioner's Strike to Dervishes so they can be on par with Axe Warriors?

All you're doing is twisting the logic. There's a difference between being on Par with other classes, than being competative with other classes.

A Ritualist can also Spirit Spam, which is an ability all its own, while being competative with damage and healing. Look and Vwk, WoR and Non elites like Spirit Light.

A Dervish can hit multiple targets with all attacks, regardless of skill effect. I think that demonstrates a unique enough function that we don't have to do anything.

No, the logic used in the OP does not apply to those cases.

bj91x · Feb 12, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

PvE skills just sugar coated over the places that mesmers were not effective on their own. That's not the answer to the problem. Mesmers should be rebalanced to have this ability without relying on PvE skills.

Sorry, I was still editing so you missed the last bit I added.

Basically, a lot of players don't feel the same way. Me's were effective even before PVE skills. Sure they didn't have the AOE ability but what's the point if every class can nuke like E or N? It'd take away from the point of professions.

The rest is covered in my original reply. Me's are no less effective than other classes at the overall game. Like I said, there's more to the game than AOE. Single target DPS is valuable and Me's can give good single target DPS to multiple enemies at the same time.

cellardweller · Feb 12, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two April Mornings

I don't want to self-promote, but this build:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10244632
has effectively done that for me.

It's not perfect, but works for me.

There's no minimal caster shut down there - the best you can hope for is an iterrupt from CoP 12s and an interrupt from Maelstrom every 30 (compared with a BHA's AoE Interrup every 5) and there's no melee shutdown or single target shutdown there at all. The incidental off target damage from empathy/BF pales next to an SS Nec who also has much better enchantment removal options whilst also using the PvE skills more effectively thanks to SR.

I can't think of a single situation where I would want to take that mes over another build. Not to say that its a terrible mesmer bar, it just other classes can do the job so much better.

For the record, this is the best pve mesmer build I can come up with and even then it relies on broken pve skills and 2 rangers to do the important work (Apply Daze via BHA and Blind via EDA)
[skill]Fevered Dreams[/skill][skill]Enfeeble[/skill][skill]Accumulated Pain[/skill][skill]Frustration[/skill][skill]Signet of Clumsiness[/skill]
It achieves the group melee and group caster shut down, but can't do single target shutdown.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two April Mornings

I agree (i'd love to easily roll through PVE with big yellow numbers on my mesmer), but it's not going to happen. In the meanwhile when playing a PVE mesmer, you have to be creative and stick with it (play the correct role). In the end, they get the job done like any other class--and this fact alone means that they don't really need fixing.

I think that is the huge misconception. I do not think the class is broken and requires fixing. I feel it could use improvement and perhaps could function well for other uses, considering some other ideas before mine.

Sure, it can get its job done, like any other class, but giving it another ability, to do damage through manipulation on a competative rate would be a very nice addition, IMHO.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 12, 2008, 03:01 AM // 03:01

I think it's the way PVE mobs are designed that allow the strengths of other professions to outshine the strengths of mesmers in PVE.

E-denial and skill disabling aren't mandatory, and largely unnecessary unless it's a boss.
Rangers are stronger in interrupting the way mobs work.
Mob design is pretty weak, they like to bunch up and have weak defense and healing.

I think PVE would need to be reworked instead of turning a mesmer into something else.

Jetdoc · Feb 12, 2008, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

All you're doing is twisting the logic. There's a difference between being on Par with other classes, than being competative with other classes.

A Ritualist can also Spirit Spam, which is an ability all its own, while being competative with damage and healing. Look and Vwk, WoR and Non elites like Spirit Light.

A Dervish can hit multiple targets with all attacks, regardless of skill effect. I think that demonstrates a unique enough function that we don't have to do anything.

No, the logic used in the OP does not apply to those cases.

1. Spirit Spam has almost no function in PvE groups any longer, with the changes to spirit energy cost, health and Ritual Lord.

2. A Ritualist cannot compete with an Elementalist with pure damage output.

3. A Ritualist cannot compete with a Monk with healing output.

4. VwK is purely a soloing skill, and has no function in PvE groups. Weapon of Remedy is a nice substitute for RoF, but as a protection player a rit is just plain sub par. Spirit Light is simply a joke heal when compared to other Monk healing builds.

5. Dervishes AoE a max of 3 enemies with their attacks. Compare that to an Axe Warrior with Triple Chop, Cyclone Axe and Whirlwind attack (combined with Dismember). There is no comparison, especially if you combine Save Yourselves! on that tank.

Again, those two classes face the exact same challenges as a Mesmer. They have their "niches", just like Mesmers do. Yet, I don't see anyone proposing massive changes to those two classes to make them "on par" with the holy trinity. It seems that your changes are very forced, just to make the mesmer more like the trinity...not to make it more "flexible", as you propose.

You can't see me · Feb 12, 2008, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

1. Spirit Spam has almost no function in PvE groups any longer, with the changes to spirit energy cost, health and Ritual Lord.

2. A Ritualist cannot compete with an Elementalist with pure damage output.

3. A Ritualist cannot compete with a Monk with healing output.

4. VwK is purely a soloing skill, and has no function in PvE groups. Weapon of Remedy is a nice substitute for RoF, but as a protection player a rit is just plain sub par. Spirit Light is simply a joke heal when compared to other Monk healing builds.

5. Dervishes AoE a max of 3 enemies with their attacks. Compare that to an Axe Warrior with Triple Chop, Cyclone Axe and Whirlwind attack (combined with Dismember). There is no comparison, especially if you combine Save Yourselves! on that tank.

Again, those two classes face the exact same challenges as a Mesmer. They have their "niches", just like Mesmers do. Yet, I don't see anyone proposing massive changes to those two classes to make them "on par" with the holy trinity. It seems that your changes are very forced, just to make the mesmer more like the trinity...not to make it more "flexible", as you propose.

Triple Chop will never compare to the DPS of a Dervish using AoL and Chilling Victory. Cyclone Axe is a joke next to this. SY has nothing to do with it.

No, those classes aren't on par with them, but since their abilities are so spread, they should not be. It works out. The Mesmer has one ability currently. This is shutdown. Other classes can do types of shutdown better than the mesmer. One ability on a sub-par level is not enough, IMO to make the class shine.

As for #1, many many ritualists would disagree, myself included.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 12, 2008, 03:12 AM // 03:12

I made a suggestion a while ago that perhaps PVE mob groups should have a mob sergeant. A creature that is responsible for mass buffing of mob's offense, defense or both. This sergeant would require precision interruption and/or shutdown as they should use specially designed monster skills that cast really fast or have really short recharges.

It's defensive capabilities would have to be high, and some of the other mobs would defend this mob in ways, so that simply being pounded on by everyone at the beginning wasn't enough. The mob would have to be shutdown or e-denied while it's support were taken out one by one, until it were possible to take the sergeant on.