Curse

Avarre · Mar 19, 2007, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWaddict

The mesmer might be going down, but since im having a good ol time w/ the build thats always worked (Ill tell ya now, i never change my build or armor) and im getting into teams i think ill just continue playing the game. And in time hopefully have enough time to farm (NO...I dont' farm either :P) or own some stuff in elite areas...

I don't disagree with that. Ineptitude was one of my most used skills - it's an excellent blend of damage and disabling. However, at max spec it is still 140d/20s - a mere 7 dps. While a skill that can work, it simply cannot statistically compare - and the blinding of one foe, in practice, rarely makes a giant difference. A similar problem with degen is that the overall output is simply too low. While degen has the advantage that you can spread it, and thus by the time the group targets an enemy specifically it has already weakened to the hexes, it suffers from not being comparable to other forms of AoE damage and dps, as well as having a diminished effect against the large groups of high-hp mobs.

LouAl · Mar 20, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Rather than simply staying with the general set of changes and rules we'd originally intended, we're also adjusting creature Skill Bars throughout the game to make the fights more interesting.

(see the rest of the post here http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...32#post2646632 )

I would consider this a step in the right direction for making the mesmer more PvE friendly. Gaile has listed some of the things we had discussed in this thread as changes in implemented in the Hard Mode (including changing the spawn locations of mobs in Normal Mode). We'll have to wait and see if it really does something good for PvE mesmers...

Cross your fingers and hope really hard

Shanaeri Rynale · Mar 20, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

It'll either be good news for mesmer or AoE Steamrolling classes..

Mekkakat · Mar 21, 2007, 05:15 AM // 05:15

i love mesmers.

i play ranger as my primary profession, and IMO, it it the single best profession, with advantages in almost every form of combat... regardless..

while warrior is the king of melee, eles the kings of AoE, necros in pve almost priceless, and monks worth their weight in gold.. its hard for the mesmer to find a slot in the cookie cutter MMO setting we have..

but.. i've been playing for a long time.. if people play just ONCE with a good mesmer, they think so differently, not like when you see a good warrior, you go "eh good tank", just like all the other good (or bad) warriors. but a mesmer.. a mesmer can make or break the quest, save everyone, or even just one, and make the game a whole lot [I]easier [I]. not to mention, they're so dang cool! its my fav casting class (mes/nec/rit.. eles *BLEH*

...and monk is too boring for my tard-self) and i dont care if we're the underdogs. i can fastcast nuke if thats what works where i am, hell, i can do anything ,because im a mesmer, and i think once other mesmer embrace the weirdness, we'll all feel better about it ^_^!

best description EVER about a mesmer being forced into the stereotypical GWs situation: we have to become some sort of mutated elementallist, or other caster, never really showing the true power of our kind.

but isnt that what makes us so strong?
that we CAN do that?
that a lot of the time.. we do it better?

mesmers pwn, i cant wait till the next game for the next set of skills

Avarre · Mar 21, 2007, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouAl

(see the rest of the post here http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...32#post2646632 )

I would consider this a step in the right direction for making the mesmer more PvE friendly. Gaile has listed some of the things we had discussed in this thread as changes in implemented in the Hard Mode (including changing the spawn locations of mobs in Normal Mode). We'll have to wait and see if it really does something good for PvE mesmers...

Cross your fingers and hope really hard

It has the potential to be excellent, but remember, Guild Wars Factions looked to be conceptually exciting. I withhold all judgement until I actually see what happens, but I'm not filled with confidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCGamer

Will cost less then other chapters with no new professions. 40 new armor sets, 150 new skills (including 50 pve only), 10 new heroes.

PvE-only skills? If the standard skills aren't serving, that means restricted skils are on a new level of balance in comparison - otherwise, why would you not make them standard skills? All this shows is Anet is moving away from the freedom of builds with the idea that things are balanced towards dicating build concepts, much the way LBgaze cut the skillbar size by one for much of Nightfall, since there was no reason ever not to take it. Having different skills for both PvE and PvP shows a continuation of the trend of making PvE very different from PvP - away from mobs balanced with capability that mimic the threat of players instead of pure stat-pumping.

From Riverside:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Having to create imbalanced skills for PvE is just proof that Anet failed to balance the PvE challenge. If the purpose of PvE is to wield your 'special PvE skills' to kill monsters, which wouldn't have to be introduced if the standard skills were balanced against enemies in the first place, what does that mean for all those thousands of other skills? Time would be better spent simply tweaking PvE development to not require a completely new line of skills, because if restricted skills have to be added to keep things in check, that's not solving the problem - just covering it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

They created thousands of skills for Guild Wars, and while the balance is nowhere near what it could have been, all aspects of the game share a common thread - you pick the eight skills that you want to use for your build and try it against some challenge or another. Unlike other games in the genre, there are limitless combinations of builds that you could make or try, and twiddling with all of the different combinations to deal with different obstacles is part of the fun.

Contrast that with a small subset of "PvE skills" that are much better than all of the others, by design. That flies entirely in the face of the core design of Guild Wars, of build diversity and experimentation. That makes it a game with increasingly predetermined skillbars. I was not happy about the Realm of Torment effectively reducing everyone from 8 skills to 7 skills plus Lightbringer's Gaze, I think that was a huge blow to the foundation of the game. If the decision is to abandon that foundation in favor of more skills like Lightbringer's Gaze, then Guild Wars will have truly lost it's biggest selling point on merit.

Ok, so why do I bring this up? While being essentially about the Mesmer in PvE, my OP is also referring to the developmental trends with regards to the design of the Mesmer. Anet is making some progress (mobs with better skillbars, mentioned in PCG), but is leaping back with the segregation of PvE and PvP skills, which I have mentioned was never really a good idea to bring out balance.

If PvE-only skills have to be introduced to balance things, this shows that they have to statistically buff players (anyone remember complaints about monster skills replacing actual monster capability to create bosses?) rather than open areas for them to work efficiently. The Mesmer, for instance, will either be given ridiculous damage hexes or heavy AoE damage - shattering the balance of it or turning it into just a purple clone of another class.

Maybe I missed something, but I'm not forseeing a whole lot of use in the future for Mesmers as Mesmers are. Maybe a lot of use for them as DPS-slingers. Good news for the Mesmer characters, perhaps, but bad news for the Mesmer class, and the design and work that went into making it one of the more inventive creations of the game. If I wanted that, I would have made a DPS class. With any luck, I'll be wrong - but I just don't have much to be confident about at this point.

Cass · Mar 23, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Nice thread, some good points are made.

I wanted to add some things to the list of issues that have developed in PvE. These are issues that I think are also playing a role in the demise of mesmer PvE efficiency.

1) The halving of activation (casting) time of the bosses beyond Tyria. It's more worthwhile than ever to stop a 2x damage Searing Flames, but it's not interruptable at the boss speed of .5 sec. There is so little reason to have this cheat on bosses, it should be removed IMO. At least the double damage can be negated by prot spirit.

2) The introduction of more skills that a mesmer cannot deal with. Shouts are the main issue here. There are also fewer caster classes in the game now. It used to be quite good (ele, mo, n, mes and w, r), but the new classes aren't so spell bound. Assassins, rits and dervishes have some, but they have many non-spell skills. Of course, mesmer have fewer and less effective skill interrupts as opposed to spells. Also, it seems to me (but I did not verify this) that many of the new spells have really short activation times, again preventing meaningful interruption. This is especially true when trying to catch fast casting spells on a foe that might use a skill instead.

3) I don't fully agree that the mesmer skills are fine as is. I appreciate the design constraints of it having to be a meta-class, rather than mass damage, but still. If you look at the NF elites, the mesmer ones are pitiful compared to what others have received. Extend conditions? Enchanter's conundrum? These are rarely feasible, if at all.

P A L P H R A M O N D · Mar 23, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Alot of good points have been made, but overall, I find my mesmer incredibly effective, though it takes ALOT more work than an equally effective Ele or Necro. Maybe ppl are just mad about not being able to be an Elementalist with SP? . . .

It is very important to know the area, and build accordingly, PvE-wise. If you are good at that, Mesmers can be one of the most nasty classes in the game . . . a few quick examples:

Yesterday in Rihlon Refuge, I ran Arcane Thievery and Arcane Larceny, with Diversion, Backfire, Ether Signet, and Energy Tap. Droughtlings and the Drought were all shutdown, singlehandedly, for Master's. Now, this is not a very hard task, I know, but the fact that it worked SO well is the important thing.

Then I started fiddling around with a damage build. Wastrel's Worry and Overload were the basis for this build, and I could spam constantly with Ether Signet and Energy Tap keeping my energy up. I really never stopped spamming the two attack skills, and dealt quite a bit of damage, getting through the next 4th of the game with a few henchies effortlessly. Again, not a difficult task, not an impressive display of skill. But the build worked wonders, did its job well.

You can solo Hydras, Sand Drakes, and Rockshot Devourers (up to three at a time) in the desert in Prophecies, with a mix of Necro and Mesmer skill (Illusion/Blood). If you are effecient with energy management and skill choice, you can easily shut down more than one caster at a time, although it is really tough at elite areas. With my guildmate (playing an A/Mo) we dual farmed bosses throughout Cantha . . . with me doing all the damage with Empathy, Backfire, Overload, etc. And soloing if need be, in case of his death . . .

Mesmer's are very viable I think. I have actually never used Spiritual Pain, lol. I think a common thread here has been that Mesmers aren't that good anymore since they can't deal as much direct damage to multiple targets as well as Elementalists. And can't interrupt as well as Rangers. There are more uses than massive damage and interrupting, though. Migraine is a great skill, I love destroying casters in PvE and PvP with Arcane Larceny/Thievery, etc. Empathy, Clumsiness, a few Curses skills . . . you have yourself a complete melee shutdown. Try not to be just a massive damage dealer and focus on a task . . . you will do your part in the party and do it well.

In the end, I am happy with my mesmer. I have played her for 18 months to 2.5 million exp, throughout all three campaigns, and have a blast and am effective. While Mesmer's def have been shafted with EASE of use (not effectiveness), I don't think its enough to warrant an overhaul update (thought I would love it if they were boosted).

Avarre · Mar 23, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by P A L P H R A M O N D

Yesterday in Rihlon Refuge, I ran Arcane Thievery and Arcane Larceny, with Diversion, Backfire, Ether Signet, and Energy Tap. Droughtlings and the Drought were all shutdown, singlehandedly, for Master's. Now, this is not a very hard task, I know, but the fact that it worked SO well is the important thing.

The Droughtlings simply don't need shutdown, because with a group size of 8 you can easily destroy them before they destroy you. It's more effective to destroy them outright. As far as the Drought is concerned, your entire effect can be imitated with a ranger that has Broad Head Arrow.

Quote:

Then I started fiddling around with a damage build. Wastrel's Worry and Overload were the basis for this build, and I could spam constantly with Ether Signet and Energy Tap keeping my energy up. I really never stopped spamming the two attack skills, and dealt quite a bit of damage, getting through the next 4th of the game with a few henchies effortlessly. Again, not a difficult task, not an impressive display of skill. But the build worked wonders, did its job well.

Ok, so we're looking at... about 20-30dp/s, assuming worry doesn't miss. On a single target, that is far below any other character dealing damage in the game.

Quote:

Mesmer's are very viable I think. I have actually never used Spiritual Pain, lol. I think a common thread here has been that Mesmers aren't that good anymore since they can't deal as much direct damage to multiple targets as well as Elementalists. And can't interrupt as well as Rangers. There are more uses than massive damage and interrupting, though. Migraine is a great skill, I love destroying casters in PvE and PvP with Arcane Larceny/Thievery, etc. Empathy, Clumsiness, a few Curses skills . . . you have yourself a complete melee shutdown. Try not to be just a massive damage dealer and focus on a task . . . you will do your part in the party and do it well.

Nobody said Mesmers don't work, but they don't work at the level of efficiency of any other class.

LouAl · Mar 23, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by P A L P H R A M O N D

Alot of good points have been made, but overall, I find my mesmer incredibly effective, though it takes ALOT more work than an equally effective Ele or Necro. Maybe ppl are just mad about not being able to be an Elementalist with SP?...
...You can solo Hydras, Sand Drakes, and Rockshot Devourers (up to three at a time) in the desert in Prophecies, with a mix of Necro and Mesmer skill (Illusion/Blood)... I think a common thread here has been that Mesmers aren't that good anymore since they can't deal as much direct damage to multiple targets as well as Elementalists. And can't interrupt as well as Rangers. There are more uses than massive damage and interrupting, though. ...

I think you missed the main point of the thread. It really isn't, at least to me, that mesmers are not a good class. The main point of the thread is that GW is fast becoming a game where the skills that a mesmer brings are not really needed/valued in PvE.

For example, Wastrel's Worry is cool, but the real power of the spell comes in forcing someone to use a skill or take damage (WW does NOT have good damage per how much energy you spend on it and how much time it takes). So, against AI it never forces them to use a skill, they don't really care. Same thing with the Droughtlings, they don't really "care" whether or not you shut them down before you steamroll over them, and your team won't care either as long as you kill them fast enough (shutdown takes too long compared to just adding another AoE nuker).

EDIT
Avarre beat me to it while I was not looking...

Also,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Nobody said Mesmers don't work, but they don't work at the level of efficiency of any other class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by P A L P H R A M O N D

I find my mesmer incredibly effective, though it takes ALOT more work than an equally effective Ele or Necro.

Efficiency vs Effectiveness

P A L P H R A M O N D · Mar 23, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

All true. I know my examples weren't the best, but I think most of me just wants to think Mesmers are the best class, ever. By alot more work, I kind of meant cleverness of play, not simply more energy, casting time, etc. As for the Droughtlings, Stoneflesh Aura stops alot of the damage that would be dealt by AoE attacks, but I suppose Arcaning doesn't give surefire enough of a way to solve that. At all, lol. And Broadhead Arrow ranger heroes were the first thing me and some guildies did when we first got to that mission, it is alot better, I agree. Either way, do doubt it takes more effort to be good with a Mesmer as opposed to most other classes.

Also, Im not to sure about the history of this forum, but did I read something somewhere about Gaile hinting at changes that would suite Mesmers? Specifically the stuff Avarre mentioned. Sorry to be behind . . .

|pyro| · Mar 23, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

I like my messie very much, one day I was at DoA advertising my services:
Nice looking Mesmer, slim body, lovely wonder-bra armor, is amusing, I can do the Mesmering part also.

I got some PMs like lol, I responded with: See I am amusing. Then I got invited into one group, and I was told prior to this that I could play the healer shut down, Interrupt SB and Aegis and such. The second I accepted the invitation the E/Mo said: No f***ing mesmer. Kick it.

Thus my DoA carrier ended. I really enjoy playing my mesmer, the only char that finished all the 3 campaigns. But when I whipped the dust from my ele to farm for ectos, I was like: ZomG SF rox :P. I finished groups with the same hench/hero build way faster. So maybe a small boost at the mesmer department my be nice, some AoE elite skills.

And A-Net ty vm much for implanting hard mode for all PvE, I hope those Shadow Mesmers will get Power Block, and some Fast Casting, Also make casters in elite areas harder as in higher stats, not harder as in copy paste the casters, maybe then shut down could be really useful in elite PvE, where Interrupting the casters spell could mean life or death.

P A L P H R A M O N D · Mar 23, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

I really like the idea given by a previous poster about area hexes, like Suffering. Necros have Suffering, SS, Reckless Haste, etc. Eles obviously have a ton of AoE. Why do Mesmer's only really have E-surge and the now kind of worthless Chaos Storm? A way to spread Backfire and Empathy might be a bit much :-p, but perhaps a little wider affect for spells could be something for GWEN.

fripple · Mar 24, 2007, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Not sure how much discussion is really needed on this topic; I would have thought the obvious solution to all this is to cut mob size dramatically and make the remaining mobs extra-tough without relying on stupid environmental effects. That doesn't require a huge redesign of the game structure, at least not beyond what's already been announced for hard mode (better skillsets and AI), so there's no reason Anet couldn't do something like that. Everyone knows superbosses are a pain in the ass unless you have some sort of countering abilities, and in every case except Mallyx, who cheats, mesmers work extremely well against them. It's still completely possible to kill Willa, Shiro, Kuunavang, etc with other professions, but for fights like this mesmers are at least as valuable as the trinity.

I think four 28th-level (or maybe 24; there's so few examples of well-designed mobs in this game) critters with a synergistic skillset would be comparable to the 6-9-member swarms of guys with bad sets, and it would allow mesmers (and assassins who don't want to just Blossom everything) to actually serve their intended purpose in pve. It can be done; Hell's Precipice is nothing but a bunch of tiny mobs. The Dredge have small groups and good skillsets, and as a result are probably the most dangerous family of mobs in Factions, and probably the entire game up to the later areas of Nightfall where gimmickry and cheapo environmental effects set in.

Of course, the mesmer has other problems that have never been addressed, in particular the relatively arbitrary and unhelpful nature of the primary attribute, as well as the overly expensive skills combined with the ability to whip them out faster and a lack of means of regaining energy. But perhaps that is for another day.

Avarre · Mar 24, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

Of course, the mesmer has other problems that have never been addressed, in particular the relatively arbitrary and unhelpful nature of the primary attribute, as well as the overly expensive skills combined with the ability to whip them out faster and a lack of means of regaining energy. But perhaps that is for another day.

Fast Casting is bad? Let's think... Energy Storage and Strength, the primary attributes of the trinity, are pretty awesome. Oh wait.

Though yes, the inspiration continual downgrades along with the domination skill trend of high cost and recharge to balance power hurt.

fripple · Mar 24, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Fast Casting is bad? Let's think... Energy Storage and Strength, the primary attributes of the trinity, are pretty awesome. Oh wait.

Compared to Strength and Energy Storage? Yes, it is pretty meh. Strength offsets its relatively minor passive by granting access to an array of useful skills that are necessarily barred to other classes, and also has the advantage of being the warrior primary, where warriors only have energy problems if they run a completely non-adrenal build or try to pack a bunch of stances following the duration nerfs (not even getting into how, as the game's 'designated' tank class and recognized major damage-dealers, they don't really have to compete with others for efficiency recognition, whereas mesmers must compete with every other caster class, plus assassins, dervishes and rangers), while Energy Storage allows for both improved burst-casting and access to a number of skills, including the best e-management skills in the game, that are very useful to many different kinds of ele build.

Fast casting has, like, two useful skills attached to it, and its passive actually exacerbates one of the key mesmer problems, which is their trouble maintaining any significant kind of offense without completely draining themselves of energy and castable skills in a matter of seconds.

Still, I don't think this is the primary issue; since there are workarounds, like a trusty glyph or the ubiquitous power drain, I would rather have mesmers actually be in demand before turning to things like their chronic lack of energy.

frojack · Mar 24, 2007, 12:48 PM // 12:48

The reason e-storage sucks is because elementalists are 'forced' to use these amazing e-management skills if they want to have any kind of endurance that compares to most of the other classes.
For example, if hypothetically Soul Reaping or Expertise were skills, as an elementalist, I'd have to take them. However there not, so I'm left with Attunements, E-Prod, Second Wind et all.
Of course rangers and necro's don't have to take a thing...

Fast Casting may not be that useful in PvE, but it's pretty amazing everywhere else.

Gandalf UK · Mar 24, 2007, 12:51 PM // 12:51

I have played mes since prophercies beta came out and have noticed how outcast mes players are made to feel, mostly by people not understanding there strengths. I feel that mes players are amongst some of the more intelligent players, as they can adapt to almost any situation and still be effective. But this still doesnt alter the fact that we have to do things either with heros, guildies or by ourselfs, as 95% of gw players will only accept the trinity or cookie cutter builds.

When we are given skill like spiritual pain we become more acceptable in teams but they get called in pvp and thus get the infamous "anet nerf bat". We can ask for new skills, alter AI, mobs etc, but this is all i feel in vain as in the end when the pvp'ers moan it gets nerfed. Without having a seperate skillset for pvp and pve this situation will never be resolved, as soon as somebody gets a popular build out and is used in pvp to great effect. The scream of nerf it come out from pvp'ers and is so done. For ages i have felt that anet satifies the pvp people and to hell with the pve ones.

Avarre · Mar 24, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandalf UK

For ages i have felt that anet satifies the pvp people and to hell with the pve ones.

Are you joking?

Look at these thread titles;

spiritual pain--eventually a nerf?

Spiritual Pain - OUCH

Everyone, even PvE players, could see it was broken in PvE as well, and everyone with a clue knew a nerf would have to come, because while it made Mesmers stronger it completely stepped outside of the design of Mesmers and gave them abilities that one-dimensionalized and powered the class excessively. The fact every dom mesmer used this skill should be a slight hint.

The vast majority of skills that are nerfed are hit for PvP reasons, but are equally overpowered in PvE. The difference is, as PvE'ers do not ever stand on the receiving end of these skills, and expect to win all battles with ridiculously stacked odds, a pure PvE'er will rarely see how imbalanced the skills they are using are. Furthermore, balance is not an issue in PvE as it is not a competitive area, and therefore less noticed.

Let's recap;

AoE - PvE nerf
Prot Bond - PvE nerf
Spirit bond - PvE nerf
Minions - PvE nerf
AoE x2 - PvE nerf
Shadow of Haste - joint nerf, (extreme PvE farming capability)
Spiritual Pain - joint nerf (ridiculous out of place mesmer damage)

I could go on. The fact is, most skills that are nerfed with an effect in PvE are imbalanced in PvE as well - that's why you feel so incredibly attached to them and get upset they are removed, because they are better than everything else.

This is all fairly irrelevant, anyway. Just had to point that out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

Energy Storage allows for both improved burst-casting and access to a number of skills, including the best e-management skills in the game, that are very useful to many different kinds of ele build.

What energy storage skills do you use in PvE? All but two are elite, and your elite is better used as offence, as most sustainable DPS (ie: SF) is elite. GoLE and attunements completely surpass elite ES skills as far as management while retaining firepower go.

Fast casting also does provide Mantra of Recovery, which is an exceptional skill. When you take into account that strength in PvE is really only propped up by Dolyak Signet, and that FC actually has a fairly useful passive effect, I wouldn't begin to compare the two. Maybe it could use a tweak, but it certainly isn't at the heart of the issue.

Stormlord Alex · Mar 24, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

When you take into account that strength in PvE is really only propped up by Dolyak Signet...

I hate doing this, but I really must bring you up on this one - Dolyak Signet is useless to a PvE warrior outside of DoA, *good* PvE warriors use Strength for Enraging Charge and Flail (well... the current Power Attack is cute too...)

Carry on.

fripple · Mar 24, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

The reason e-storage sucks is because elementalists are 'forced' to use these amazing e-management skills if they want to have any kind of endurance that compares to most of the other classes.
For example, if hypothetically Soul Reaping or Expertise were skills, as an elementalist, I'd have to take them. However there not, so I'm left with Attunements, E-Prod, Second Wind et all.
Of course rangers and necro's don't have to take a thing...

Fast Casting may not be that useful in PvE, but it's pretty amazing everywhere else.

Of course all this is correct. But also remember that, up until Nightfall, there were very few elite elementalist offensive spells cost-effective enough to justify taking (and even now the choices are not all that numerous), so using your elite for management wasn't a huge problem. The 'forcing' is just part of the way the game is designed; it's stupid and arbitrary and circular- the elementalist needs more energy because his spells are more expensive, and his spells are more expensive so he needs more energy - in the same way fast casting is for mesmers (they need to cast faster because their disruption effects are slow, and their disruption effects are slow because only mesmers can cast them quickly), which cuts down on a lot of both attributes' non-theoretical utility.

And yes, there are plenty of other primary attributes that are just flat-out superior to all these without even trying. And fast casting is great in pvp. Unfortunately, this is a thread about pve.

Quote:

Fast casting also does provide Mantra of Recovery, which is an exceptional skill.

Yes, that's one of the two I mentioned as being useful, the other being power return. And even MoR was often replaced with other things prior to its recent buff because it was so inefficient on a class that already had energy problems. It's better now, which is good. And as I said, I don't think this offensive endurance thing is the fundamental problem - I rarely have energy problems myself because I take a minute to make sure the build I'm using is properly sustainable in the wake of whatever gimping anet has decided the mesmer really needs this time - it's just one of the two or three other details that stack with the poorly-designed enemy environment that can together make pve such a chore for mesmers who don't have guilds that love them. Kind of want to get back to the original discussion now, which was more the scenario design and was less likely to turn into a skills argument, because those never go anywhere.