Curse

Domon Kasho · Mar 12, 2007, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Edit: Double Post....damn lag

Domon Kasho · Mar 12, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Leave my water ele alone thank you very much.

seriously though, this is the crux of the problem. You start making things like Backfire AoE to compensate for a poorly designed PvE environment, you have to also make AoE Backfire far weaker than it currently is to compensate (you really think that kind of AoE caster shut down is not over-powered?).
I like the mesmer fine as it is. You think I'll trade Backfire as it is now for some AoE rubbish in the same manner as Cry of Frustration, just to 'hit more people'? Never in a million years. There is no sane way you can justify AoE on things like Backfire or PowerSpike without taking a performance hit.

If Anet decide to support this nonsense, they will just put one more nail in the coffin. A 'patch' is not a durable solution. You don't break what isn't broken.

Like I've said, I feel the class is generally well made and can function very well. I may not get into DoA with the class, but who cares? DoA/RoT is even more poorly designed than the rest of the the PvE universe. It certainly isn't any fun to play.

QFT

i laugh at DoA mobs with 24 in every attribute and the ability to clone at low health. lvl12 winnowing>mesmers

Mylon · Mar 12, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Whew. That's what I've been trying to say for quite a while. I've been trying to play a Mesmer and use Mesmer heroes lately (in PvP) but it isn't working. Why interrupt a spell at a large cost with a crappy recharge when you can get a ranger that interrupts anything, does damage, and can keep spamming it? Or heck, just get an Ele to cast meteor shower or use any other number of KD spells, which double as a handy 2-3 second blackout too. Or throw a warrior on them with disrupting chop.

In terms of shutdown, Mesmers are obsolete.

noblepaladin · Mar 12, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Your example of increasing the mob count and observing the effectiveness of the elementalist increase in tandem, while the opposite occurs for the mesmer is true for more or less all classes when compared to the elementalist. Look at warriors; Possessing the highest dps in the game doesn't stop them being out-classed by elementalists when the number of affected foes increases.

I think this highlights the major difference in PvP and PvE. Elementalists have probably the lowest DPS in PvP, but they clearly have the highest DPS in PvE. Warriors have the highest DPS in PvP, but they have by far the lowest DPS in PvE (spells like Empathy allow a Mesmer to do more damage vs level 24 or level 28 monsters than Warriors because it is armor ignoring), especially now since the AI sometimes just runs around like crazy. However, in PvE, warriors still have their use as a tank (although personally I feel that a curse necro giving all enemies -50% attack speed and weakness "tanks" better than warriors, so I never use warriors in my hero/hench team).

Warriors, Assassins, and Mesmers suffer greatly from the increasing mob count problem. Warriors are forced to play as tanks rather than damage spikers (they can damage spike, but any good PvE warrior will know that it is insignificant compared to the constant stream of meteor showers, searing flames, barrages, etc). The assassin class was designed almost specifically for damage spiking then escaping. This plays virtually no role in PvE. The same with the Mesmer, who is designed to disrupt the enemy strategy with interrupt/shutdown. The AI has no strategy to disrupt, they are just over-leveled and stat stacked (they only reason why they offer any challenge at all is because they are level 28 with 600+ hit points and hit for a ton of damage).

Also, notice that Mesmers have not really received any upgrades in Nightfall and Factions in terms of PvE usable skills. Their usable skills in PvE remain primarily Prophecies skills. Most of the other classes have received many new skills PvE friendly skills (ex: Searing Flames and Broadhead Arrow to name a few). Most Mesmers skills and interrupts have nasty after-effects which are very power in PvP (Diversion, Powerblock, etc), but useless in PvE.

Basically all the builds that benefit from increasing mob count become extremely popular and powerful (Fire nukers, Barragers, MMs, etc). Warrior's tanking ability doesn't change with mob count (they can draw and hold any number of enemies if they stand in the correct place). That is why they are the most effective in PvE. Monks are the only ones that are truely unique, since no other class can heal nearly as effectively, and because that healing is also an essential part of PvE gameplay.

deadmonkey4u · Mar 12, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Elementalists are essentially a joke in PvP in terms of damage dealing. This is not news. In contrast mesmers offer considerable effectiveness in terms of shutting down or simply decimating less vigilant players. In PvE the opposite is mostly true. Why is that..?
The difference can be generalised as AoE versus single target offense. AoE is ineffective in PvP while the opposite is true for PvE. The elementalist is king of AoE. It's simply the way it's meant to be (having much to do with thier own problems).

..... how may I ask is a ele a joke in PvP in terms of damage dealing? Savannah Heat? SF? by no means a joke. Over the course of the game over normal movements your bound to catch a few players. Just a while back aoe sf eles where putting tremendeous pressure on teams especially on jade or the lava map. VoD GvG matches a fire ele can do quite a bit to npcs. AoE is by no means ineffective in pvp. Less effective and needed I would say but calling them jokes and calling AoE ineffective in PvP is pretty wrong. Also damage is not the only AoE. Would you call ice spikes or a deep freeze useless as well?

Mesmer's shutdown and utility abilities is what makes them shine in PvP. In PvE who really cares about shutting down a monster or shattering some enchant or diverting one monsters skills. Theirs so few times its necessary that its pointless. Eles simply deal much more AoE damage and makes them more valuable for PvE.

LouAl · Mar 12, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

So it seems to me that the real fix is not changing the mesmer as has been stated. The real fix is making the PvE experience less of a "plow through it" setup. As for the existing campaigns, this is probably not possible. But, for the next campaign (I heard it was an expansion), it is entirely feasible to make mobs more balanced so that having diversity in a group would be a good idea.

Unfortunately, there are huge problems with this. One is that having extremely balanced groups of enemies with good skill sets would make the PvE experience much like a bunch of PvP experiences on a wider map. This would tend to make the PvE maps restricted to those that could invest large amounts of time. Another problem would be that to do this, human players (who are, as a whole, not extremely "leet") would find many areas too dificult and would gravitate away from the game because it is too difficult without a good group (obviously hard with a PuG). Another issue is that to have a group that takes advantage of all, or most, of the class' strengths would then need to be a larger group, and then it would be that much harder to find a full, balanced group

Some of the issues could be overcome by adding more heroes and the ability to have more heroes in a group, but, unfortunately, I think that the real answer is to play the mesmer as an "enthusiast" in PvE and leave the rest of mesmer play to PvP so that the game is fun for more people and therefore more people play (network externalities anyone?).

btw I am not trying to be a defeatist, I just don't see a great solution that doesn't break the game for casual players, and through that, eventually lose the game, through lack of money, for the rest of us.

frojack · Mar 12, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadmonkey4u

..... how may I ask is a ele a joke in PvP in terms of damage dealing? Savannah Heat? SF? by no means a joke. Over the course of the game over normal movements your bound to catch a few players. Just a while back aoe sf eles where putting tremendeous pressure on teams especially on jade or the lava map. VoD GvG matches a fire ele can do quite a bit to npcs. AoE is by no means ineffective in pvp. Less effective and needed I would say but calling them jokes and calling AoE ineffective in PvP is pretty wrong. Also damage is not the only AoE. Would you call ice spikes or a deep freeze useless as well?

Mesmer's shutdown and utility abilities is what makes them shine in PvP. In PvE who really cares about shutting down a monster or shattering some enchant or diverting one monsters skills. Theirs so few times its necessary that its pointless. Eles simply deal much more AoE damage and makes them more valuable for PvE.

AoE can be very effective in PvP... If people forget how to walk. Any kind of offense I can nullify by simply moving becomes not so great. One Diversion on Savannah (2 second cast. Not too hard) will put it out of commission for long enough to make that elementalist less than useful. So no Savannah: What's the ele going to do now?
Water magic is not awesome because of the damage, it's awesome because it makes the enemy look like they're on crutches. Anyways I didn't come to debate the amazing damage capabilities of the Elementalist. So let's leave it there...

@LouAl

I hear what you saying and have echoed those sentiments as well. However I think the casual community deserve more credit than you give them. Not every mob has to run around like [IQ] or somethnig

. There are layers of intelligent mob design that can be applied and removed as is necessary. It all comes down to play-testing. In truth if I were casual, I'd be more pissed off and feel cheated by the nonsense that goes on in higher end PvE.
A team wipe caused by an inordinate amount of mindless drones is far more annoying if you ask me. This seems to be the way Anet want to 'make things harder'. It's the easy way out.

The mesmer is a great class. One of the best. If PvE wasn't such a mindless steam-roll it would be more obvious.

Robin_Anadri · Mar 12, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by noblepaladin

...Monks are the only ones that are truely unique, since no other class can heal nearly as effectively, and because that healing is also an essential part of PvE gameplay.

I'll see your heal monk, and raise you a Healer's Boon necro.

Sadly, the OP hit the nail on the head. There's just not any compelling reason to take a mesmer over one of the unholy trinity in PvE. Before the (though I hate to admit it, deserved) nerf of Spiritual Pain, there were some good times for the stylish riverdancers, particularly with the Assassin's Promise Me/A build. But now, I don't think there's a lot of hope - changing the mesmer to match this PvE would unbalance it for PvP (see: Spiritual Pain pre-nerf) and changing PvE to fit the mesmer would make PvE too challenging for the LCDs.

Oh well. At least the 8-mesmer gimmick teams are fun. See ya'll in DWC Int'l 1 Saturday?

Seef II · Mar 12, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

It is not that hard to have a few well-placed, balanced, good, Kournan patrols rather than the 500 idiotic, non-synergistic squads out there. Fill in the blanks with the same dumb insects and mandragor, and that'd make reasonable PvE.

BDZeres · Mar 12, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

I remember getting owned by Jade Brotherhood when factions first released. probably my most feared PvE MOBs (along with those Migraine guys in UW). While I appreciate that some players find this kind of NPCs extremely challenging I beleive it would re-invigorate PvE for many players, especially when combined with large explorable continents such as elona.

I would love to see mesmers and sins used to their full potential in pve, both as viable team members and NPCs.

Pat_vaynard · Mar 12, 2007, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mylon

Whew. That's what I've been trying to say for quite a while. I've been trying to play a Mesmer and use Mesmer heroes lately (in PvP) but it isn't working.

In terms of shutdown, Mesmers are obsolete.

... I hope I misread that because I think you have the mesmer class mistaken severely.

You're trying to tell me mesmers are obsolete in terms of shutting a target down in pvp?

GourangaPizza · Mar 13, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

A mesmer should try to stick what she is made for in the first place if she wants to be effective. That's has been my belief always. So IMHO, the direction designers should take for mesmers in PvE is a support offensive character. However their offensive do not come in damage but what they excel at, disabling people. So far I have already seen some skills that can beused in PvE extensively if not for the conditional requirements;
E.g.
[skill]Hex Eater Vortex[/skill] Great way to abuse those hexes cast on the tank into an AoE damage.

[skill]Air of Disenchantment[/skill] I somehow find the idea of AoE hexes of this genre quite appealing. This is definitely one fo the viable ways to make mesmer more demanded in PvE, which is to implement some AoE disabling hexes.

Trouveur · Mar 13, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

By the way, delete Maelstrom, and make Chaos Storm do damage and interrupt. Seriously, why is that not a Mesmer skill.

You just put the finger on another problem of the mesmer.

Not only its role in PvE is considered subpart compared to the "trinity", but some of the best shutdown/"punishing for using a skill" skills are mesmerish at heart but belonged to other classes which don't need them at all to be effective !

To name a few :
- maelstrom, great AoE interrupt
- spoil victor, an elite combined version of backfire/empathy
- spiteful spirit, an AoE empathy

If mesmer have all the mesmerish (read : shutdown and punishing for acting) skills, it would be more appreciated.

I am sorry but not only are maelstrom, spoil victor and spiteful spirit (to only name a few) more mesmerish than ele or necro, but ele and necro don't need them at all to be wanted in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouAl

Another problem would be that to do this, human players (who are, as a whole, not extremely "leet") would find many areas too dificult and would gravitate away from the game because it is too difficult without a good group (obviously hard with a PuG).

Well Hard mode will be optional so this would be the perfect way to introduce more intelligent PvE.

Braggi · Mar 13, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouAl

So it seems to me that the real fix is not changing the mesmer as has been stated. The real fix is making the PvE experience less of a "plow through it" setup. As for the existing campaigns, this is probably not possible. But, for the next campaign (I heard it was an expansion), it is entirely feasible to make mobs more balanced so that having diversity in a group would be a good idea.

Unfortunately, there are huge problems with this. One is that having extremely balanced groups of enemies with good skill sets would make the PvE experience much like a bunch of PvP experiences on a wider map. This would tend to make the PvE maps restricted to those that could invest large amounts of time. Another problem would be that to do this, human players (who are, as a whole, not extremely "leet") would find many areas too dificult and would gravitate away from the game because it is too difficult without a good group (obviously hard with a PuG). Another issue is that to have a group that takes advantage of all, or most, of the class' strengths would then need to be a larger group, and then it would be that much harder to find a full, balanced group.

Time and effort for a rework are prohibitive, agreed. Really effective mob groups would be too challenging for normal players. Never forget that a region must also work for a "new born" character, who naturally has a limited skill bar and hardly a good selection of elites available. Elite regions are sth completely different there. But the problem at hand is, that most mesmers learn early on that they have a problem, and quit.

I argued in the inn that a solution would definitely have to include a mesmer redesign. For one thing, unlike every other primary attribute, fast cast does nothing for overall effectiveness - it just helps to spike.
My suggestion is to make fast cast also reduce the reload of mesmer skills -many of the base skills have rather long reload. I can then maybe drop an attack skill and take more energy management or unconditional damage or sth. That way the class itself gets more attractive, not just some skills I might as well use on any caster.

Next, mesmer is too specialised. Interrupts limited to spells were ok while we had a distinction between fighters and casters. But new classes now include 2 hybrids and rituals. Initially we had enchants, hexes and conditions, where mesmer, monk and necro had overlapping abilities. Now we have rituals (no spells), weapon enchants (can't touch), chants and refrains, and each new chapter will probably bring another one or two new concepts...

Blowing a power spike on a ritual just plain sux - but you can't expect a casual player to know and identify every skill of every class correctly in a fraction of a sec and then use the right skill. Better make most interrupts generic and offer additional effects (like damage) as a bonus with met conditions.
Other classes have conditional effects too, but they can usually chain skills to fulfill the conditions. The mesmer counter style is very dependent on the type of enemy.

Last the nerf of illusion by increased health. Additionally, if there is hex removal, there are usually several mesmers or monks in a PvE mob. possible solution: offer more specialised hexes with upfront effects like damage or post-removal effects; maybe then I can actually kill sth in high levels except as a frag spiker.

coydeleon · Mar 13, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

The mention of the Jade Brotherhood example got me thinking, perhaps fixing skillbars rather than mob size would be more effective in making the Mesmer more viable?

Of course, the question of whether or not a Mesmer can outperform a Ranger in that manner comes into play...

or, if they overhaul most of the skills of Mesmers to work not on a set amount of damage but rather in increasing percentages per attribute point in order to be on par with the increased health of PVE mobs could be something to look into, although I must admit that might either make them overpowered or totally useless?

LouAl · Mar 13, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braggi

I argued in the inn that a solution would definitely have to include a mesmer redesign. For one thing, unlike every other primary attribute, fast cast does nothing for overall effectiveness - it just helps to spike.
My suggestion is to make fast cast also reduce the reload of mesmer skills -many of the base skills have rather long reload. I can then maybe drop an attack skill and take more energy management or unconditional damage or sth. That way the class itself gets more attractive, not just some skills I might as well use on any caster.

Next, mesmer is too specialised...

A mesmer redesign/redefinition would be an awful plan. There is nothing wrong with FC. It makes your character harder to interrupt, you can cast more spells in rapid succession (not just spiking but spreading as well). FC IMO does exactly what it should and is one of my favorite primary attributes by far. Also, if you redefine the class, you lose a wonderfully complex and difficult class that really had no major flaws...the flaws are in the design of other things (stat pumping, huge mobs, immense health, others were mentioned above).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trouveure

Not only its role in PvE is considered subpart compared to the "trinity", but some of the best shutdown/"punishing for using a skill" skills are mesmerish at heart but belonged to other classes which don't need them at all to be effective !

I have argued the same thing in the past. There is NO reason why SS should be a necro elite. There was a large thread on it in the skills forum but most people argued for necro to keep SS based on "it is the only thing that necros are wanted for in pve" rather than how well it fits in the class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

It is not that hard to have a few well-placed, balanced, good, Kournan patrols rather than the 500 idiotic, non-synergistic squads out there. Fill in the blanks with the same dumb insects and mandragor, and that'd make reasonable PvE.

It wouldn't be an easy thing to implement (especially in the existing areas), but more importantly, it would take the casual gamer out of the PvE world. If you have to fight mini-PvP battles as you travel across the map in PvE, then your total time spent in the map becomes outrageously long. For most of the players, that is not a good option. An otional "Hard Mode" might be a good option, especially if the mobs are already fairly balanced (like most NF mobs), but when in Hard Mode they are given better skill bars with 8 skills and ressurects on most monsters.

frojack · Mar 13, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Necromancers and mesmers are very similar if you look at say Curses for example. Similar to say, elementalists and ritualists (channeling). So the partial cross over makes sense.
Soul Leech is probably one of the best examples (since it's caster hate) as it almost directly parallels with Backfire. I guess the difference is SL can't be prot-ed' since it's life-steal and not damage (Pretty nasty actually. Always wondered why I never see more of this skill).

Maelstrom costs 25 energy, causes exhaustion, has a 30 second recharge on only an adjacent range, and a 2 second cast. It's not exactly mind blowing (no matter how fun it is to use ^_^). This shut-down really isn't something that out-matches mesmer alternatives. It's just a little extra quirk in water.

Anyway I don't see a reason why skills in other professions shouldn't have similar traits. Seems to be nothing more than envy

.

Trouveur · Mar 13, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Anyway I don't see a reason why skills in other professions shouldn't have similar traits. Seems to be nothing more than envy

.

Well, when mesmers ask for some AoE damages the answer is : that's not their role.

But on the other hand it seems perfectly natural that others classes can do mesmerish things.

If ele can have an AoE shutdown skill, why mesmer couldn't have an AoE damage spell ?

the_jos · Mar 13, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

LouAl wrote:

Quote:

Unfortunately, there are huge problems with this. One is that having extremely balanced groups of enemies with good skill sets would make the PvE experience much like a bunch of PvP experiences on a wider map. This would tend to make the PvE maps restricted to those that could invest large amounts of time.

Well, since the main 'problem' area's are the so called 'Elite Areas' like Deep, Orguz and DoA, I see no problem with introducing a more PvP experience.
It's not called Elite for nothing.
Those areas are also no real part of the main story line.
So making those harder for the PvE (W/Mo/E) minded is not that bad.

In the general PvE storyline, the Mesmer is still an option in my opinion.
Perhaps not always the best, but a mesmer that knows the situation and opponents would benefit the team.

Furtermore, the mesmer could be the 'caller' in many PvE groups.
They need to be aware of the enemies, their roles, positions and skills.
They can also direct the party (or part of it) to a certain enemy and give the team the possibility to finish that one without much danger of other attacking enemies (like team focus on monk and perhaps one other caster, mesmer focus on ele to disable the really damaging skills).
But then, organisation is something you don't find in many PuGs.

pingu666 · Mar 13, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

recklass haste is another..

the no anti shout, anti stance is a big hole aswell, and interupts too..