Curse

DarkSpirit · Aug 13, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by weretoad

hello guy you don't read upiers long responses correctly do you, he has said the mesmer can work and work well. and yet you still say "upier all you like is soul reaping, splinter, and and and and that other really good stuff"
i really liked his last post, read it again, and again until you know where mesmer stand in pve

He is also implying that mesmers dont synergize well with one another:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You have a lot of skills which work counter-productively - such as skills that prevent the activation completion and skills that cause damage on activation.
And THOSE skills actually present the major damaging mesmer weapons - unless we return to simple nukes where there is also no synergy.
Basically - the mesmers in your team don't represent a group that would be better then the sum of their parts.

Simply because he takes those set of skills that happen to not work well together, as examples, doesn't necessarily imply that mesmers do not have other skills that do work well together.

In other words, he is giving a biased view and that is misleading to those who do not know the mesmer skills well enough.

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 14, 2008, 06:08 AM // 06:08

[Fatality;A1RBI964CKtA9BsEYDuLGTiAK6A] Pretty much godly.
(Superior in illusion, minor in others, if you care that much.

upier · Aug 14, 2008, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

He is also implying that mesmers dont synergize well with one another:

Simply because he takes those set of skills that happen to not work well together, as examples, doesn't necessarily imply that mesmers do not have other skills that do work well together.

In other words, he is giving a biased view and that is misleading to those who do not know the mesmer skills well enough.

I also asked for examples of viable builds where this synergy would be shown.
In the current game something like SoF makes sense because the melee guys are mostly the last ones we take down.
AC doesn't make enough sense because the casters are pretty much the first thing that dies.
Then you have degen which is capped at 10 - for all party members.
Try something like a bunch of E-Burns/Surges on a foe with little energy. You stop doing damage when you hit 0.

The mesmer skills will in the best possible scenario work just as all other skills do - completely independent of each other. There is no synergy there.
But there is the possibility of them clashing very badly.
So there is no plus and there is a chance of a huge minus.

Magikarp · Aug 14, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

[Fatality;A1RBI964CKtA9BsEYDuLGTiAK6A] Pretty much godly.
(Superior in illusion, minor in others, if you care that much.

I play almost the exact same build

, just swap the arcane for clumsy, and the phantasm for nightmare. and yes, i agree, it steamrolls 90% of the monsters out there in seconds lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I also asked for examples of viable builds where this synergy would be shown.
In the current game something like SoF makes sense because the melee guys are mostly the last ones we take down.
AC doesn't make enough sense because the casters are pretty much the first thing that dies.
Then you have degen which is capped at 10 - for all party members.
Try something like a bunch of E-Burns/Surges on a foe with little energy. You stop doing damage when you hit 0.

The mesmer skills will in the best possible scenario work just as all other skills do - completely independent of each other. There is no synergy there.
But there is the possibility of them clashing very badly.
So there is no plus and there is a chance of a huge minus.

so chained stacks of WE/Clums on a bunch of super fast, hard hitting, autoattacking AI isn't synergy? Backfire or Empathy+VoR for huge spikes of damage isnt synergy? the list goes on, and again, this is a pointless argument, especially when im supposed to be talking to someone who "knows" this class.

edit: this is getting annoying now, so im going to litterally, like a teacher showing a child, explain how mesmer skills can work together.

these are about as basic as a combo as it gets...

Eburn
Esurge
Aneurysm/Mind Wrack

any signet build with MoI or Keystone

Any Ether Cover with drain delusions or Shatter Delusions

Any Cover Hex plus Shatter Delusion, but in particular look at Phantom Pain

All of the spell and magic auto interrupters such as WE, Clums, Inep, Mistrust, ect

Frustration, AC, Migrane+any interrupt, or more importantly things like Frus+Power Spike etc

passive defensive and active movement skills for running like IoH, IoW, Distortion (enchants+stances?)

Fragility+stacked conditions (and yes, you can cause that from your primary) such as DW from Accumulated Pain etc

anti melee stacks in many forms such as Soothing Images for adren users and chain interrupters like Inep for sins etc

energy combos like Ether Lord+Ether Sig or even combos that have extra payoff like Inspired X

echo chains for more damage in any source

action punishers like VoR+Empathy or Backfire

situation punishers like Shatters, Cries, or even Powerblock/Lock

all of the thievery skills and SoI

and the list goes on. this includes nothing about how well a mesmer can adapt to almost all of the caster classes, nor its synergy with FC pve onlys. This isnt a list of "great" combos, but a basic outline of the most rudimentary forms of mesmers.

if you can't understand why people say they're good or why they like them, thats fine, but at least respect that they get the same job done, just as fast as anyone else. what difference does it if im getting the job done?

draxynnic · Aug 15, 2008, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Another thing to consider regarding the anti-synergy argument: Sometimes different threats require different responses.

Consider, for instance, Earth Elementalists. The most infamous example in PvE - the Sandstorm Crag - largely achieves its threat from having one spammable skill (Stone Daggers) along with one nasty, reasonably slow casting high-damage skill (Sandstorm). There are other monsters that follow this basic template, but this is probably the best example.

Now, upier would probably consider carrying Backfire as well as interrupts in your team to be a waste, right? However, in this case, what is the most effective way to deal with the threat the Crag poses? Most of the skills that the Crag uses aren't really worth interrupting... toss a Backfire, maybe the new VoR as well and it will hurt them more than it hurts you. When they start casting Sandstorm, however, that you want to stop if you can, even if it means the monster takes less damage than if you'd let the spell through. So while the Backfire and the interrupt are, at first glance, antisynergistic, they work together to take down the enemy.

And I'm sure this isn't the only example where having a variety of skills that appear at first glance to be working against one another can be beneficial. Sure, you won't be able to use every skill on your bar mindlessly on recharge, but you can make sure you have the tools to face whatever you might encounter.

upier · Aug 15, 2008, 06:34 AM // 06:34

So what you are saying is that Craggy works like ... an exception to the rule?

draxynnic · Aug 15, 2008, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Not quite. As I said, there are other monsters that fit within the same general template. Forgotten Arcanists also come to mind - and they aren't the sole examples, but I can't be bothered forming a list of every critter in the game where you may want to stop some skills and punish others. And sometimes the times when you need skill X and skill Y aren't on the same critter but on different ones - one mob may require using skills XYZ while another requires skills ABC, or you may even want both sets of skills on different critters in the same team.

roysland · Aug 15, 2008, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Fighting Margonite Clerics, you should use both interrupts and Backfire. You can't do very much if he gets his Spell Breaker up. The rest is Backfire-lunch.

As for my cryer, i run [fragility][clumsiness][Assassin's Promise][Cry of Pain]["Finish him!"][Ether Signet] for decent amounts of armor ignoring damage and instant recharge

upier · Aug 15, 2008, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Why not use use that Power Spike on the Arcany-dude IF you feel like interrupting his KD and instead of Backfire you just trash him?
"Bosses" are one thing - possible issues with trying to KD them, tons of HP, ... - there are some things you do differently. Heck I even bring Echo Blackout to deal with them sometimes. Or Thievery skills. Or daze for that matter.
Other guys - they just die.
So yeah, Backfiring and then interrupting a normal dude is a waste.
Because it's a waste to be using Backfire on him in the first place. Just kill him.
You have the tools for it.

Magikarp · Aug 15, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

more importantly what he is saying Upier, is that seeing the mesmer as a "counter" class, which it obviously is, it has a different type for synergy. When other classes like a warrior or dervish go for KDs, DPS, and even more advance things like pinning and bodyblocking, the mesmer offers an array of smart, tactical advantages, to keep your team in a more comfortable position. Killing priest and defenders can be tough in slavers hm at times, whereas a mesmer could shut them down in seconds, making them useless, or even hurt the team more than help. same with interrupting that backlining Summit Warder who keeps Churning and Sandstorming your mid/backline. the frontline cant get to them because their job is to bodyblock or stop their fronline from sagging back, but the midline wont have enough offense to outright kill them alone, nor survive the AoE but for so long, so again, the mesmer shines.

factor in all the damage we prevent, all of the damage we deal WHILE we prevent it, or the way we can punish targets for actions, while still causing damage to others, and all in ONE primary (leaving room for options like pve-onlys and support skills), and the mesmer class has come a LONG way from when it used to be "no.. you're a mesmer.. go back to pvp plx".

illidan009 · Aug 17, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Wow...there is a cry way??