Curse

Athrun Feya · Nov 10, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

There's a major distinction between the skills effectiveness in and out of cryway teams.

In cryway teams, its helpful in numberous ways. Same range as Cry of Pain means everything takes the same damage, this isn't implying we're relying on the damage from it, just that having everything take equal damage is important. The cast time isn't much of a problem on primary mesmer and is used alongside things like Deep Freeze with similar cast times. The degen is useful to differentiate between other (non-mes) hexes, helpful if your team is not fully confident with t-space spamming and prefers to watch bars turn pink.

EN seems unnesessary for general PvE though and if you're looking for a quick spell for CoP, i'd suggest Web of Disruption - at least it does something useful.

Edit: Nice idea for AoE hexes in The Deep because of hex removal... not forgetting Withdraw Hexes is an AoE hex removal

Tyla · Nov 11, 2008, 12:06 AM // 00:06

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Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

In cryway teams, its helpful in numberous ways. Same range as Cry of Pain means everything takes the same damage, this isn't implying we're relying on the damage from it, just that having everything take equal damage is important. The cast time isn't much of a problem on primary mesmer and is used alongside things like Deep Freeze with similar cast times. The degen is useful to differentiate between other (non-mes) hexes, helpful if your team is not fully confident with t-space spamming and prefers to watch bars turn pink.

The equal damage part really isn't needed. If you have enough people to CoP the shit out of the enemy, you're already good to go. A spammable, cheap, fast casting, longlasting hex that doesn't require attribution to be effective will be a better way to go. Degeneration has minimal efficiency in PvE, single-target shutdown is less powerful unless you really need it, in which case you need something over the top such as daze and other skills generally only degenerate while doing something useful generally aren't useful compared to other things. Arcane Conundrum is more powerful than Migraine in PvE, then there's Technobabble and then you've got Meekness or Shadow of Fear being superior to Faintheartedness in terms of melee shutdown. Although the Necromancer hexes aren't completely relevent, I assume you see my point.

If your team isn't confident with T-CoP, however, there's always other variables considering that most Mesmer elites aren't strong when it comes to Cryway. VoR is contradicting; long recharge, a skill has a heavy chance of interruption due to the CoP follow up. Echo shouldn't be needed when you have enough people (I generally prefer the Monks running CoP for more oomph). Not completely confident on the mechanics of this, but Air of Disenchantment has a recharge of 10. Guess you can say Arcane Conundrum, but that recharge is kinda ugh unless you're running A/Me's or Me/A's. Depending on the area, Confusing Images can be of usage too. However, you might as well get them to T-CoP if you're commonly carrying out Cryway teams under a regular basis with the same people.

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EN seems unnesessary for general PvE though and if you're looking for a quick spell for CoP, i'd suggest Web of Disruption - at least it does something useful.

Web of Disruption sounds like good usage for a skill, might try it when I actually PvE again.

Athrun Feya · Nov 11, 2008, 02:40 PM // 14:40

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The equal damage part really isn't needed. If you have enough people to CoP the shit out of the enemy, you're already good to go. A spammable, cheap, fast casting, longlasting hex that doesn't require attribution to be effective will be a better way to go.

I don't see why a spammable hex is useful when, in cryway teams, you only cast in intermittent bursts (or should..). Recharge time of ~15sec is not important because we're forgetting Cry of Pain has a 12 second recharge time anyway. What I find in, even in experienced cryway teams (4 HM elite mission speed records probably qualify me to say this) is that it's unlikely you're going to cleanly spike large balled groups due to variations in health and/or any healing enemies may have. EN is one of the skills that can be used to clean this up slightly (as well as things like EoE in suitable areas...). Why would you even want a longlasting hex for a 1-2 second spike?

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Degeneration has minimal efficiency in PvE, single-target shutdown is less powerful unless you really need it, in which case you need something over the top such as daze and other skills generally only degenerate while doing something useful generally aren't useful compared to other things.

I already stated that we did not rely purely on the damage from EN, I'll extend this to include its energy steal. Your statement sounds dangerously close to implying dazed gives degen.

ZodiacFear · Nov 11, 2008, 03:09 PM // 15:09

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Web of Disruption sounds like good usage for a skill, might try it when I actually PvE again.

So... You're not even playing, yet you argue about the best hex for CoP with someone who uses Cryway builds every day? I happen to do that too and Ether Nightmare really is the best spell for the cause. The advantages are mentioned in the post above - it's useful for killing the enemies with higher health or some kind of healing and it makes it easier to see if it's an actual mesmer hex on the enemy so you don't waste it on a target hexed with SS.

Tyla · Nov 11, 2008, 04:23 PM // 16:23

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Originally Posted by ZodiacFear

So... You're not even playing, yet you argue about the best hex for CoP with someone who uses Cryway builds every day? I happen to do that too and Ether Nightmare really is the best spell for the cause. The advantages are mentioned in the post above - it's useful for killing the enemies with higher health or some kind of healing and it makes it easier to see if it's an actual mesmer hex on the enemy so you don't waste it on a target hexed with SS.

I find it funny that you misinterpretted my post and assumed I quit months ago. Well you're wrong.

A few questions. Why would you use SS in Cryway? If you want to see the bar turn purple why not simply use Shrinking Armour? Infact, why not get someone who can call? It's not even hard.

Sorry, but your post is merely useless to the argument and only an attempt to have a stab at me because I'm supporting my argument and don't PvE much anymore.

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Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

I don't see why a spammable hex is useful when, in cryway teams, you only cast in intermittent bursts (or should..). Recharge time of ~15sec is not important because we're forgetting Cry of Pain has a 12 second recharge time anyway. What I find in, even in experienced cryway teams (4 HM elite mission speed records probably qualify me to say this) is that it's unlikely you're going to cleanly spike large balled groups due to variations in health and/or any healing enemies may have. EN is one of the skills that can be used to clean this up slightly (as well as things like EoE in suitable areas...). Why would you even want a longlasting hex for a 1-2 second spike?

Assassins' Promise. In a desired Cryway group, I'll probably be running Assassins' Promise, Mind Wrack and Cry of Pain. If it's not enough damage, "Finish Him!" will be added. The 20 degeneration won't make a difference against an enemy with energy that is incredibly hard to slow down unless you're chaining the Visage skills. If you want speed, casting speed is also an important factor, aswell as aggro management and team coordination. If you know how to effectively put these to good use, you don't need stuff like Ether Nightmare to cover it up. Spiking isn't hard when your enemies' Monks are absolute crap.

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I already stated that we did not rely purely on the damage from EN, I'll extend this to include its energy steal. Your statement sounds dangerously close to implying dazed gives degen.

Daze giving degen? No, I'm implying that it's incredibly powerful shutdown that outclasses all a Mesmer can do... in a PvE skill...

And I do believe I'm misreading here; the energy denial means nothing at all.

Simply put, if the mob isn't dead within a second of the hex contacting the enemy, your team is either not bothering or pathetic.

- Degeneration skills have minimal bearing on the situation, a faster casting one is far better. If you want AoE, use Arcane Conundrum, I'm sure that a lot of people favor Mesmer Cryers over Ele Cryers.

- With Mesmer or Assassin Cryers, you have access to Assassins' Promise. You can always use two tanks and have the second collect aggro from multiple areas where Assassins' Promise will be strong. Heck, you can even use Arcane Echo on most classes, or Echo if you're stuck for elite choice.

Anyway, it seems the only upsides are degeneration and the ability to not call. Seriously, those reasons are just dumb.

Athrun Feya · Nov 11, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Assassins promise? I won't deny its an amazing skill for general PvE because there you have a messier style of gameplay where youre not relying on spiking everything at once. Clearly you have not played in an organised cryway team. Tank pulling takes time, and even in the case where there is a 2nd tank, the next pull should be a suitable distance away for it to qualify acutally being a seperate pull at all. This makes the need for quick recharge times completely arbitrary.

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I do believe I'm misreading here; the energy denial means nothing at all.

Actually, that's exactly what I was saying. -8 energy for 1 in 30+ foes makes basically no difference.

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Simply put, if the mob isn't dead within a second of the hex contacting the enemy, your team is either not bothering or pathetic.

So why do you need a longlasting hex, as you previously stated?

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Anyway, it seems the only upsides are degeneration and the ability to not call. Seriously, those reasons are just dumb.

Dumb? Perhaps. Or perhaps you have a gross overestimation of random PvErs abilities. From experience, people ping to indicate they are about to use said skill on said enemy (reasonable so far, yes?) and logically the Deep Freeze and Mes Hexer would ping at the same time (also reasonable). Unfortunately pinging generally doesn't account for the time spent moving toward the enemy or the time spent casting - so you can have up to 2second variation between Deep Freeze and the mesmer hex - plently of time to waste Cry of Pain. EN just makes it so unbearably obvious that a mesmer hex is there, ping or not - this is why it is favoured so much.

Tyla · Nov 11, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

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Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

Assassins promise? I won't deny its an amazing skill for general PvE because there you have a messier style of gameplay where youre not relying on spiking everything at once. Clearly you have not played in an organised cryway team. Tank pulling takes time, and even in the case where there is a 2nd tank, the next pull should be a suitable distance away for it to qualify acutally being a seperate pull at all. This makes the need for quick recharge times completely arbitrary.

Messier? Not at all.

It's possible to divert the attention from one tank to another with the use of things like Return and so on. Then, we get that tank to collect more aggro and we repeat.

I didn't say "pull everything and randomly throw your skills no matter what", I said "pull additional mobs". Even then, what other skills will you use as an elite? The only one that holds a decent use is Echo, and if your organised Cryways are as organised as you imply, VoR would be highly unneccesary. Even then, if you're so organised why don't you even utilise the "T" button?

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So why do you need a longlasting hex, as you previously stated?

Although that isn't necessary, half hex duration? Correct me if I'm wrong, but certain enemies have such absurd health levels that a long lasting hex would be more useful. 100 damage over 5 seconds isn't worth it when you can save time, and even then Ether doesn't give that degen.

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Dumb? Perhaps. Or perhaps you have a gross overestimation of random PvErs abilities. From experience, people ping to indicate they are about to use said skill on said enemy (reasonable so far, yes?) and logically the Deep Freeze and Mes Hexer would ping at the same time (also reasonable). Unfortunately pinging generally doesn't account for the time spent moving toward the enemy or the time spent casting - so you can have up to 2second variation between Deep Freeze and the mesmer hex - plently of time to waste Cry of Pain. EN just makes it so unbearably obvious that a mesmer hex is there, ping or not - this is why it is favoured so much.

That's merely part of PuGging. I thought we were talking about organised groups here?

Even then, looking at the field is a major thing. You really, really want the purple bar? Just use Shrinking Armour if you're not bothered about long lasting hexes, and feel the need to know when the hex is existant.

Again, unbearably obvious doesn't mean efficient. Sure, it's easier to spot, but if you're going for speed those extra few seconds are worth it.

Jeydra · Nov 12, 2008, 09:34 AM // 09:34

There are obvious advantages of using Ether Nightmare as opposed to Mind Wrack, and obvious disadvantages as well. I'll list down both of them here and make a case for using Ether Nightmare - if I missed out anything feel free to point it out.

Advantages:

1. Ether Nightmare gives some degen. Better than nothing, though not by much.
2. Ether Nightmare is an AoE hex. Now this advantage is significant. When a target hexed with Mind Wrack dies, the Cryer must reapply Mind Wrack on someone else before he can use Cry of Pain again. Not so with Ether Nightmare.
3. Ether Nightmare is an AoE hex. When using triple Cry of Pain, there's a good chance that you have Echo / Arcane Echo on you, but have not hexed someone and so cannot reliably use Cry of Pain. With Ether Nightmare though you can. Chances are there's someone else in the team who's already used Ether Nightmare, or there's a straggler left behind whom you've already hexed before.

Disadvantages:

1. Ether Nightmare costs more energy. A small disadvantage since monsters explode so quickly anyway.
2. Ether Nightmare takes 3 seconds to cast. A considerable disadvantage on non-Mesmer primaries.
3. Ether Nightmare uses up a PvE slot, but then again there aren't all that many PvE skills you want in a Cry of Pain group.
4. Mind Wrack lasts longer. Insignificant, since a hexed monster should be dead within ~10 seconds at most. The longer duration goes to waste.
5. Mind Wrack has a shorter recharge. Also insignificant, since you'd have to reapply Mind Wrack while you can just keep casting Cry of Pain with Ether Nightmare.

Near as I can tell, the advantages of using Ether Nightmare are way more important than using Mind Wrack.

I don't know how you define 'organized team', but if by organized team you mean a team hooked up on Ventrillo then you might as well have only one person bring a hex, or similar. But for most of us, I think, by 'organized team' we mean getting a team together with an explicit purpose. Doing (say) a mission with 'LFG whoever' and letting everyone use their own build is not organized; doing things with a designated Perma and Cryers (eg. the VS farm) is. In the latter case I definitely think Ether Nightmare is superior. I've not played in the former case so I don't know, although I would still think Ether Nightmare better at first glance, since you no longer need someone to say 'spike this guy, I hexed him'.

Tyla · Nov 12, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

1. Ether Nightmare gives some degen. Better than nothing, though not by much.

It's not going to help at all. The degeneration isn't going to do anything when the enemy should be dead straight off.

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2. Ether Nightmare is an AoE hex. Now this advantage is significant. When a target hexed with Mind Wrack dies, the Cryer must reapply Mind Wrack on someone else before he can use Cry of Pain again. Not so with Ether Nightmare.

Cry of Pain is already AoE? Mind Wrack has a recharge of 5, and a cast of one. With a decent party timing will be straight-forward.

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3. Ether Nightmare is an AoE hex. When using triple Cry of Pain, there's a good chance that you have Echo / Arcane Echo on you, but have not hexed someone and so cannot reliably use Cry of Pain. With Ether Nightmare though you can. Chances are there's someone else in the team who's already used Ether Nightmare, or there's a straggler left behind whom you've already hexed before.

Press "T". The only things that shouldn't be dying are bosses, and the degen isn't doing anything against them unless you bring absurd amounts of it.

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5. Mind Wrack has a shorter recharge. Also insignificant, since you'd have to reapply Mind Wrack while you can just keep casting Cry of Pain with Ether Nightmare.

If you're not using Assassins' Promise and you don't hit a HRT, then you're hexless for another 3-6 seconds, depending on fast casting with the skill. Mind Wrack? Reapply, don't suck and hope the team doesn't suck.

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I don't know how you define 'organized team', but if by organized team you mean a team hooked up on Ventrillo then you might as well have only one person bring a hex, or similar. But for most of us, I think, by 'organized team' we mean getting a team together with an explicit purpose. Doing (say) a mission with 'LFG whoever' and letting everyone use their own build is not organized; doing things with a designated Perma and Cryers (eg. the VS farm) is. In the latter case I definitely think Ether Nightmare is superior. I've not played in the former case so I don't know, although I would still think Ether Nightmare better at first glance, since you no longer need someone to say 'spike this guy, I hexed him'.

By organised I mean having the knowledge on what to do, the obedience to follow requests from the person leading the team and/or calling. You don't even need Vent to call the spike either.

Jeydra · Nov 12, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

How can degeneration not help at all? If nothing else, it is DPS. You once said wanding is better than nothing. Well obviously degeneration is also better than nothing, it at least does more damage than wanding. Right?

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Cry of Pain is already AoE? Mind Wrack has a recharge of 5, and a cast of one. With a decent party timing will be straight-forward.

You don't get it. Ether Nightmare is a AoE hex. Therefore, if one target dies, you can quickly switch to another one and still pull off a successful Cry of Pain. You have to reapply Mind Wrack. There is a difference - especially if you've just used Echo or Arcane Echo.

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Press "T". The only things that shouldn't be dying are bosses, and the degen isn't doing anything against them unless you bring absurd amounts of it.

What if the 'T' target just died?

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Originally Posted by Tyla

If you're not using Assassins' Promise and you don't hit a HRT, then you're hexless for another 3-6 seconds, depending on fast casting with the skill. Mind Wrack? Reapply, don't suck and hope the team doesn't suck.

You're hardly hexless. There're other players in the team who're using Ether Nightmare, and since Ether Nightmare is an AoE hex there's a very good chance someone will still be hexed with it and you can still use Cry of Pain. There's even a good chance that pressing 'C' gives you someone already hexed. Certainly not the case with Mind Wrack.

Tyla · Nov 12, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

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Originally Posted by Jeydra

How can degeneration not help at all? If nothing else, it is DPS. You once said wanding is better than nothing. Well obviously degeneration is also better than nothing, it at least does more damage than wanding. Right?

Only certain enemies will survive that many Cries of Pain. Might as well take the fastest route.

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You don't get it. Ether Nightmare is a AoE hex. Therefore, if one target dies, you can quickly switch to another one and still pull off a successful Cry of Pain. You have to reapply Mind Wrack. There is a difference - especially if you've just used Echo or Arcane Echo.

In other words, that target will probably survive around 10 waves before dying anyway? Either a sucky pull and hold or you're against a boss.

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What if the 'T' target just died?

Hope your caller isn't dumb.

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You're hardly hexless. There're other players in the team who're using Ether Nightmare, and since Ether Nightmare is an AoE hex there's a very good chance someone will still be hexed with it and you can still use Cry of Pain. There's even a good chance that pressing 'C' gives you someone already hexed. Certainly not the case with Mind Wrack.

If it ends, it will end the same time on everything else. If it's reapplied, chances are you'll have it reapplied faster with Mind Wrack. Oh, and laziness isn't an argument.

Electric Friend · Nov 13, 2008, 01:04 PM // 13:04

I've been using shrinking armor or wastrel's worry for my CoP builds. If i want to go all out on damage though, I bring a longer lasting hex like mindwrack and also bring necrosis. Nothing lives past CoP+Necrosis.