Curse

Cebe · Sep 04, 2008, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Mind Wrack really is just bringing a hex for the sake of bringing a hex. At least Ether Nightmare gives you the degen. Mind Wrack has a long duration and short recharge I grant you, though.

I think Tyla had the right idea in his first post. A quick-recharge hex that's potentially more useful than Ether Nightmare.

draxynnic · Sep 04, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

yet when we talk about SS - it's a necro skill. Nobody even considers running it on a mesmer - despite it not really making a difference.

I've done it...

That said... the point with the feeder hex is that if the build works, it doesn't MATTER what it does, in a cryway team anyway. The target is going to be dead anyway. Personally, though, I like Fragility - makes Finish Him! hurt just a little bit more, and comboes well with AI/Conjure Nightmare when you're H/Hing.

That said, I've used Wastrel's as a CoP feeder on a build that had VoR as the elite. I think AP-based builds work better for CoP (and/or EVAS), but Wastrel's does have the amusing consequence of CoP interrupting whatever they try to break Wastrel's with. If you're relying on it, though, it can be annoying if it breaks just before the CoP lands.

Still, I think we can pretty much claim, if anything, AP-based builds, especially if they use Arcane Echo as well. The only competition would be Assassins, and I'd much rather have that little bit of extra energy and Fast Casting over Crit Strikes.

Akolo · Sep 04, 2008, 07:41 PM // 19:41

you guys are thinking mostly for general pve where you are right. however ether nightmare makes it so much easier that its worth the pve slot... in a cryway team

Tyla · Sep 04, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

In a Cryway team, it would be even less effective simply because as soon as it goes off, everything in the right radius will be dead by the time you get the skill off.

illidan009 · Sep 04, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Hahah I love cryway...ether nightmare is used for farming sometimes...I still don't get why the degen builds for farming are even popular but EN is pretty bad imo...

MisterT69 · Sep 04, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

I guess ppl use either nightmare because its PVE. You can put whatever hex you want to help you set off CoP, but most people don't really need that damage. The degen is enough, because really the majority of your damage is coming from that CoP spike, so that conditional hex you're adding isn't as important. But you could potentially switch it out for a better hex, but it's PVE, so it's just 1.hex 2.spike 3.yawn 4. repeat.

Onyx Blindbow · Sep 04, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Hmm why do ppl use Ether Nightmare?

Simple answer = because it works.

now to expand on that

Cryway is essentially x ppl [mindbender][ether nightmare][arcane echo][echo][cry of pain] that 99% guarantees that you are going to hit a hexed foe

So lets work this out, say 6 ppl in the group are "cryway" essentially you have 18 CoP + 6 Ether Nightmare casts inside of 10 seconds, as far as PvE based AoE dmg goes can you think of anything better? (Lets assume r10 sunspear + r3 luxon/kurzick so basically (6x -6 degen) + (6x3x100 armor ignoring damage) = -6 degen+1800 armor ignoring damage all dealt within 10 seconds) to target + all adjacent foes (be that 2 or 20 in the group) get the picture?

All these posts about I use "x" as a feeder hex for CoP etc... etc... well good for you, but you are missing the basic premise behind "cryway" and that is near guaranteed slaughterhouse AoE dmg, I defy most ppl to make a build that is as simple and effective as this and that is ALL it is about, aoe hex followed by a ridiculous amount of armor ignoring damage.

[mindbender][ether nightmare][arcane echo][echo][cry of pain] + 3 spare slots to bring whatever you want

You can petty argue all you wish about using x,y,z as a feeder hex but until it is nerfed I would put that "pug" build up against any group of foes and guarantee you will walk away laughing

upier · Sep 05, 2008, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

In a Cryway team, it would be even less effective simply because as soon as it goes off, everything in the right radius will be dead by the time you get the skill off.

Let's leave Cryway out of this.
Discussing EN in connection with Cryway is like discussing Mending and Healing Breeze and then bringing up the 55.
Different rules apply for those situations.

Tyla · Sep 05, 2008, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onyx Blindbow

Hmm why do ppl use Ether Nightmare?

Simple answer = because it works.

now to expand on that

Anything works in PvE, but onto the main course...

Quote:

Cryway is essentially x ppl [mindbender][ether nightmare][arcane echo][echo][cry of pain] that 99% guarantees that you are going to hit a hexed foe

Considering Ether Nightmare is your only hex, and if you're in an area with no hex removal, it makes saving the PvE skillslot even better. Using a hex with a 1 second cast time will save you time. (Who cares how minimal, every little bit counts)

Otherwise, just bring more people with the required hex the same way you do in Cryway, or if you really want an AoE hex, take something like Arcane Conundrum.

Quote:

So lets work this out, say 6 ppl in the group are "cryway" essentially you have 18 CoP + 6 Ether Nightmare casts inside of 10 seconds, as far as PvE based AoE dmg goes can you think of anything better? (Lets assume r10 sunspear + r3 luxon/kurzick so basically (6x -6 degen) + (6x3x100 armor ignoring damage) = -6 degen+1800 armor ignoring damage all dealt within 10 seconds) to target + all adjacent foes (be that 2 or 20 in the group) get the picture?

Having more than 2-3 copies of Ether Nightmare is redundant as Ether Nightmare has a duration of 10 and a recharge time of 15. I'm not sure on the mechanics of hexes used against normal enemies as opposed to bosses though. Honestly though, making them take longer to cast would be alot better.

As for the 6 degen, it's only 12 DPS, and you're dealing 1800 armour ignoring damage which will kill almost every monster in the game with CoP. What difference will 12 extra damage make at all? Especially considering when CoP goes up the enemy has less than a second to move out of CoP's radius, and the AI in this game isn't particularly effective at combatting anything.

Quote:

All these posts about I use "x" as a feeder hex for CoP etc... etc... well good for you, but you are missing the basic premise behind "cryway" and that is near guaranteed slaughterhouse AoE dmg, I defy most ppl to make a build that is as simple and effective as this and that is ALL it is about, aoe hex followed by a ridiculous amount of armor ignoring damage.

If Cryway is slaughterhouse damage, what will 12-16 health degeneration do to make any difference at all when you've got 1800 damage going off?

Cry of Pain doesn't require every enemy in it's radius to be effective.

Quote:

You can petty argue all you wish about using x,y,z as a feeder hex but until it is nerfed I would put that "pug" build up against any group of foes and guarantee you will walk away laughing

Oh, okay. So you refer to "my" build as a PuG build yet it can pretty much take out an enemy without much support, but your build which can do the same except you can do... everything mine can. Mine can also take Echo, Arcane Echo to accompany that, AP and almost everything because I've got all I need.

PS: PvE is easy, just because something gets the job done doesn't mean something is good or efficient, added onto the fact that degen doesn't do much in PvE, 3 seconds cast isn't nearly as efficient as 1 second cast, 10 energy versus 5 energy, 15 recharge versus 5 recharge.

Honestly though, Cryway is the place you'll need Ether Nightmare the least.

Onyx Blindbow · Sep 05, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Ether nightmare is simply being used as an AOE hex to try and ensure that by the time you are going to cast on a target you are 99% certain that it is primed, if not you can switch target quickly to any in the group and whilst your waiting to cast on CoP the degen is already working

Can you point to a fool proof PUG build that has an AoE primer that works as well as ether? given that the majority will be running mes as secondary?

3 seconds cast time? Mindbender Halves that to 1.5 seconds and if your mes primary you also have fastcast to lower it even further

the build you put forward is a good pve build, BUT, it relies on the fact tht you place a primer hex on 1 target and hope it doesnt get removed to ensure that you can hit CoP, ether nightmare takes this problem away as you can choose any that were targetted or adjacent to still get the same dmg and that is simply the reason it is used, CoP as a standalone pve skill is kind of rubbish tbh, it's only use (a la ursan) is in a group and there it is simply devastating

Tyla · Sep 05, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onyx Blindbow

Ether nightmare is simply being used as an AOE hex to try and ensure that by the time you are going to cast on a target you are 99% certain that it is primed, if not you can switch target quickly to any in the group and whilst your waiting to cast on CoP the degen is already working

Entrusting people with the crucial role of calling the spike without the ability of the caller to call the target, or the party pressing "T" and whatever button your CoP is on is a bad idea in the first place.

Quote:

Can you point to a fool proof PUG build that has an AoE primer that works as well as ether? given that the majority will be running mes as secondary?

The key word there is "PuG".

Quote:

3 seconds cast time? Mindbender Halves that to 1.5 seconds and if your mes primary you also have fastcast to lower it even further

And if you're running Mind Wrack, it's half a second cast and FC lowers it further too.

Quote:

the build you put forward is a good pve build, BUT, it relies on the fact tht you place a primer hex on 1 target and hope it doesnt get removed to ensure that you can hit CoP, ether nightmare takes this problem away as you can choose any that were targetted or adjacent to still get the same dmg and that is simply the reason it is used, CoP as a standalone pve skill is kind of rubbish tbh, it's only use (a la ursan) is in a group and there it is simply devastating

As I've said previously, in areas where there is hex removal taking multiple copies of the skill would probably be mandatory.

Onyx Blindbow · Sep 05, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

It doesn't change the fact that Cry Of Pain as part of a standard mes bar is weak, it's ONLY use is part of a group, if your in a group 9/10 your pugging, if your pugging you want an idiot proof skill... hence ether nightmare, at least you can guarantee someone being hexed in the group your about to annihilate

no one calls target or barely even follows target in a pug,if your expecting that then you may as well wait for flying sheep

Tyla · Sep 05, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onyx Blindbow

It doesn't change the fact that Cry Of Pain as part of a standard mes bar is weak, it's ONLY use is part of a group, if your in a group 9/10 your pugging, if your pugging you want an idiot proof skill... hence ether nightmare, at least you can guarantee someone being hexed in the group your about to annihilate[

no one calls target or barely even follows target in a pug,if your expecting that then you may as well wait for flying sheep

We are aware PuGs are bad most of the time, please stop spreading things already known. Even then, the way someone uses a skill shouldn't determine how good or bad it is as a whole, since a good player will put (example) D-Shot to good use, whereas a bad player will put it to bad use. A good OR bad player won't get any use out of Mending, though because it's a bad skill. The only argument I can think of is Ether Nightmare being AoE, and even then you only need one hexed target and a team that isn't braindead to call a single-target hex, thus saving a skill slot. There are only a few areas where Ether Nightmare is really mandatory, and the only area I can think of is The Deep, and that's only in one room.

As CoP on a standard Mesmer bar, it's still a pretty powerful skill as far as I'm concenred in conjuntion with the skills mentioned in the OP.

snaek · Sep 05, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

why do [mind wrack] when u can do [fragility]?
sure, fragility mite not trigger, but at least it has a better chance to trigger than mind wrack does

Tyla · Sep 05, 2008, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Because by the time you spike them, Fragility wouldn't do much anyway.

In the build posted in the OP, however, I guess it could deal some extra damage with "Finish Him!" and still act as a cover hex, providing I have a decent investment.

Onyx Blindbow · Sep 05, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The only argument I can think of is Ether Nightmare being AoE

That IS the reason for Ether Nightmare, there is no other reason as I explained above, it is an AOE hex to ensure that at least one of the group your about to CoP is hexed

Quote:

We are aware PuGs are bad most of the time, please stop spreading things already known

You are aware of this but you still question why people are using Ether Nightmare ???

snaek · Sep 05, 2008, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Because by the time you spike them, Fragility wouldn't do much anyway.

In the build posted in the OP, however, I guess it could deal some extra damage with "Finish Him!" and still act as a cover hex, providing I have a decent investment.

well 5/1/5 hex that does absolutely nuthin vs 5/1/5 hex that has potential to do dmg...

so i dun see y it wouldnt be a better option?

Ariena Najea · Sep 05, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
Because by the time you spike them, Fragility wouldn't do much anyway.

In the build posted in the OP, however, I guess it could deal some extra damage with "Finish Him!" and still act as a cover hex, providing I have a decent investment.

well 5/1/5 hex that does absolutely nuthin vs 5/1/5 hex that has potential to do dmg...

so i dun see y it wouldnt be a better option?

Unless you're specing for [[Fragility], it only lasts 8 seconds. Assuming your spike works flawlessly this is fine, but what if *something* goes wrong (ex. [[cry of frustration] on your spike) and your initial spike fails? [[mind wrack] lasts for 30 seconds which allows for the full recharge of [[cry of pain].

isamu kurosawa · Sep 05, 2008, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onyx Blindbow

That IS the reason for Ether Nightmare, there is no other reason as I explained above, it is an AOE hex to ensure that at least one of the group your about to CoP is hexed

Because calling a target requires a top 100 GvGer....

Ether Nightmare generally is a waste of time. you are paying 10e and a long cast time for no good reason whatsoever. [[mind wrack] or [[fragility] work better.

If you are running a CoP team with /Me's then the mob should die fast enough to not need multiple foes to be hexed. If you are running a mes primary on the team then you have much better AoE otions such as [[visions of regret] or for non elite alternatives [[arcane conundrum] or even [[soothing images]. Each of which have a more useful effect than minimal degen and a pointless energy loss.

If nightmare stole energy then it would be a different issue altogether. But as it stands the skill just isn't worth it compared to other PvE skills you can take.

Using bad players as a reason to use a bad skill is not a good way to look at things. Those same bad players would probably cast EN on foes that have split out of range anyway.

DarkSpirit · Sep 05, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

CoP builds are varied and different builds are useful in different situations. CoP builds for Cryway are different from standalone CoP builds. CoP with AP can also be alittle different.

I prefer a 5e hex with faster recharge that lasts at least 10s, to counter hex removal and I hate switching targets in my AP build. CoP builds can be energy intensive too, and my choice of hexes are chosen because I can have physical or elemental damage party members to help out. Which is why I prefer Shrinking Armor to Mind Wrack or EN.

You can see how different scenarios can influence my choice of hex.